The rule sets of combat

[Flying Crane]

In the video I linked, you see almost everyone as soon as the poke happens they call time-out. It's immediately disorienting, you lose your depth perception, and lose awareness on one side of your body. Because you are probably blinking and tearing up (the natural response to an eye poke) your other eye is going to be less effective. This is all if you can keep a cool head.

In a real fight if you react to an eye poke by turning your head and covering your eye (like happens quite often in these clips), and there is no ref to stop the other person, they have a clean shot to just rain blows on you.

Add in the fact that people generally don't train their natural response to an eye poke. You spar all the time to get kicked in the ribs or to take punches to the head. These are hits the people are used to. The reason they go down so quick on an eye poke is they aren't used to pain there, so they don't know how to respond. And if you do train for that, you'll go blind before you use it in a fight.

Sure, but consider if the fellow you are defending against is a repeat offender and is looking at doing hard time in prison for the fifth time in his life if he gets caught after tryin to mug you, and he is not willing to accept that possibility.

So the eye poke could cause him to fight more desperately and he might beat your head in on the concrete, even if he loses the eye later.

Again, it depends on what is on the line. It isn’t an automatic fight-stopper. There are a lot of variables in the mix.

 

[skribs]

Sure, but consider if the fellow you are defending against is a repeat offender and is looking at doing hard time in prison for the fifth time in his life if he gets caught after tryin to mug you, and he is not willing to accept that possibility.

So the eye poke could cause him to fight more desperately and he might beat your head in on the concrete, even if he loses the eye later.

Again, it depends on what is on the line. It isn’t an automatic fight-stopper. There are a lot of variables in the mix.

You could say the same about any technique.

 

[Flying Crane]

You could say the same about any technique.

Yes. But at the moment we are talking about eye pokes, and there can be a tendency to believe that they are fight-stoppers.

 

[jobo]

Sure, but consider if the fellow you are defending against is a repeat offender and is looking at doing hard time in prison for the fifth time in his life if he gets caught after tryin to mug you, and he is not willing to accept that possibility.

So the eye poke could cause him to fight more desperately and he might beat your head in on the concrete, even if he loses the eye later.

Again, it depends on what is on the line. It isn’t an automatic fight-stopper. There are a lot of variables in the mix.

Such a person will most likely want . To leave quickly, with or with out your wallet with or with out an eye poke , the best thing you can do to shorten the fight is to let him ,
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[skribs]

Yes. But at the moment we are talking about eye pokes, and there can be a tendency to believe that they are fight-stoppers.

If it doesn't stop the fight it gives you a clear advantage. The other person may start swinging, but he won't see what he's swinging at. And I think it's 90% he won't be swinging, and less than 1% he's throwing more than one reactionary swing.

 

[Buka]

Sure, but consider if the fellow you are defending against is a repeat offender and is looking at doing hard time in prison for the fifth time in his life if he gets caught after tryin to mug you, and he is not willing to accept that possibility.

So the eye poke could cause him to fight more desperately and he might beat your head in on the concrete, even if he loses the eye later.

Again, it depends on what is on the line. It isn’t an automatic fight-stopper. There are a lot of variables in the mix.

There is a certain situational awareness, a feeling if you will, that comes from working as a cop.

The guy - a repeat offender and is looking at doing hard time in prison for the fifth time in his life if he gets caught after tryin to mug you, and he is not willing to accept that possibility - might as well be wearing a sign that declares this, at least sometimes. Really, you can kind of feel him without even trying to.

If you have a Martial background it becomes even more natural and instinctual. I'm not even sure why. I think all of us here have it to some extent. You just have to keep exercising it.

People watching is more than just " a thing". It is a tactical preparation for what may or may not occur. And it is necessary.

And that guy you described, the repeat offender, that F'er is a people watcher, too. But F him and the five to ten he rode in on.

 

[Flying Crane]

If it doesn't stop the fight it gives you a clear advantage. The other person may start swinging, but he won't see what he's swinging at. And I think it's 90% he won't be swinging, and less than 1% he's throwing more than one reactionary swing.

Sure, maybe. Anything is possible. But don’t assume an eye poke will end the fight.

 

[Flying Crane]

There is a certain situational awareness, a feeling if you will, that comes from working as a cop.

The guy - a repeat offender and is looking at doing hard time in prison for the fifth time in his life if he gets caught after tryin to mug you, and he is not willing to accept that possibility - might as well be wearing a sign that declares this, at least sometimes. Really, you can kind of feel him without even trying to.

If you have a Martial background it becomes even more natural and instinctual. I'm not even sure why. I think all of us here have it to some extent. You just have to keep exercising it.

People watching is more than just " a thing". It is a tactical preparation for what may or may not occur. And it is necessary.

And that guy you described, the repeat offender, that F'er is a people watcher, too. But F him and the five to ten he rode in on.

Yup. And he might have jumped you from behind, before you knew he was there.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Biting and eye gouging aren't illegal because they are particularly useful for ending fights(the same goes for small joint manipulation and groin strikes), in fact they are all quite ineffective at stopping people in the moment.

They are illegal because they can leave long lasting damage that would impede future fights.

Eye gouge can, but if you can knock a jab out i think you should be able to snake kung fu their eyes with somewhat reliability if you can jab well enough and accurately enough. Just need to be reminded its a thing if you go from a sport base. you know what i mean, the fingers pointed at them and jab it at their eyes really fast.

Small joint manipulation is iffy and hard to do under resistance and groin strikes aren't end all be all, its a vulnerable spot for sure and hurts let alone if you put a good kick into it.

out of the 3 the eye gouge is the best and most fight stopper of them and probably the easiest to do under pressure. None of them dont have their place, but they are blown out of proportion barring the eye jab, you can cause serious damage to a thing you need to live a good life.

Someone may have replied with a similar thing but i haven't seen it if they did, so apologies for the double reply if you got one.

 

[Buka]

Yup. And he might have jumped you from behind, before you knew he was there.

True. But everyone has to be doing something when they die.

And if he wants to be attacking me from behind then that's his choice.

 

[skribs]

Sure, maybe. Anything is possible. But don’t assume an eye poke will end the fight.

I assume it will give a clear advantage.

 

[Flying Crane]

I assume it will give a clear advantage.

I assume it will PROBABLY give an advantage.

But don’t use the MMA comparison to make your judgement. An MMA competitor has the luxury of ending the fight if he thinks the eye injury is bad. Someone else might not, and just might even fight harder.

 

[drop bear]

And yet, you don't see that in their advertising all that often. So apparently not.

You see a lot of advertising that say self defense and delivers mediocrity.

I wouldn't go off the advertising.

 

[drop bear]

Double post, so apologies.

Boxing and wrestling are pretty old but not in the now as we know them ways, there are some folk styles which have died off which are damn old and i think everywhere had a folk wrestling style in some capacity.

Look far enough back you could probably find a pretty no holds barred fighting system. Wrestling to me means grappling and i think thats the literal definition for the term outside of citing wrestling as a style. Wrestling by far is pretty useful against a armed/armoured opponent and also is less dangerous out of the two i would say. which can be a factor as to why its pretty popular, if you want to kill someone draw your blade and cut them, if you want martial showmanship/practice which can be applied decent to armed warfare wrestling is there.

How ever as in England boxing took off quite a bit, but in old terms that was basically no holds baring and some of the domestic wrestling styles had strikes and kicks in them. But then unarmed fighting systems might appear where you couldn't otherwise be armed as you see now with the crackdown of weapons over history in places. Isn't karate kind of like how it is because of a Okinawan crackdown on weapons in its history? And actually ban of its practice.



If im not wrong the oldest European or English martial system recorded was one in the 11-12 00's. I forget if it was European oldest or the oldest for England. It IS English though or recorded in England. Forget its name. (its not unarmed, it has some unarmed techniques in it though as most should)

Pretty jumbled point but i hope it made sense. Ultimately drop bear is not fully wrong or right, but the modern arts how we look at them now are not reflective or are slightly reflective of their history. Only so much as foil fencing is reflective of sword fighting as it has a sword representative in it.

Obviously i am not martial arts historian so i will take correction to any of this. I would say i am a hobbyist in terms of martial history as its my preferred genre of history. (military history mostly but this is under military history) Just ask for clarification of anything if you need it and want it.


Edit: Oh and if this was a joke reply, RIP me.



@drop bear Its a double reply to both of you i would say.

Well in a modern context. Wrestling, BJJ, and hybrids are used to train soldiers for the battlefield.

 

[drop bear]

I assume it will PROBABLY give an advantage.

But don’t use the MMA comparison to make your judgement. An MMA competitor has the luxury of ending the fight if he thinks the eye injury is bad. Someone else might not, and just might even fight harder.

What advantage do you think that gives?

Just saying fight to the death doesn't create mental toughness. Doing tough things does.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a certain situational awareness, a feeling if you will, that comes from working as a cop.

The guy - a repeat offender and is looking at doing hard time in prison for the fifth time in his life if he gets caught after tryin to mug you, and he is not willing to accept that possibility - might as well be wearing a sign that declares this, at least sometimes. Really, you can kind of feel him without even trying to.

If you have a Martial background it becomes even more natural and instinctual. I'm not even sure why. I think all of us here have it to some extent. You just have to keep exercising it.

People watching is more than just " a thing". It is a tactical preparation for what may or may not occur. And it is necessary.

And that guy you described, the repeat offender, that F'er is a people watcher, too. But F him and the five to ten he rode in on.

A year ago, I wouldn't have understood that. For the last several months, I've been volunteering with the local sheriff's office, helping provide security at the courthouse (including Superior court). Talking with the cops I get to work with - including the Sgt., who worked undercover vice for a long time - about the people we see there, I think i get it. I sometimes get an odd "feel" from some of the folks coming in for court. If the deputy I'm working with is experienced (most of them have 15+ years on the force), they'll sometimes comment about it, too. They recognize more than I do, and seem to get more information from the feeling. Of course, that's probably because they've had to tune theirs with the experiences they've had over the years.

But, yeah, they pretty much know when someone is likely to be trouble. I've had to remind them that not all of us have their experience to do that with.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Well in a modern context. Wrestling, BJJ, and hybrids are used to train soldiers for the battlefield.

Pretty much MMA at this point. Most people describe it as MMA and all countries use a similar set of moves. Its basically dirty MMA with the perspective to kill people or at least cause them a mischief. Its literally a hybrid martial art anyway, they dont care about style they just want the most effective system possible at what they want it for.

The USMC martial arts program i think is cited as having something from literally everything in it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Eye gouge can, but if you can knock a jab out i think you should be able to snake kung fu their eyes with somewhat reliability if you can jab well enough and accurately enough. Just need to be reminded its a thing if you go from a sport base. you know what i mean, the fingers pointed at them and jab it at their eyes really fast.

Small joint manipulation is iffy and hard to do under resistance and groin strikes aren't end all be all, its a vulnerable spot for sure and hurts let alone if you put a good kick into it.

out of the 3 the eye gouge is the best and most fight stopper of them and probably the easiest to do under pressure. None of them dont have their place, but they are blown out of proportion barring the eye jab, you can cause serious damage to a thing you need to live a good life.

Someone may have replied with a similar thing but i haven't seen it if they did, so apologies for the double reply if you got one.

I think landing an eye poke against a moving target (on purpose) is as hard as getting a wrist lock. It can be done, but reliability gets low. Now, if your hands are already there (struggling with someone, and hand lands on face), adding a poke or gouge should be much more reliable. I think it's as situational as a wrist lock. It can be useful, but only works when it works, and is only worth really trying for when the right opportunity makes it available.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well in a modern context. Wrestling, BJJ, and hybrids are used to train soldiers for the battlefield.

I think this has mostly followed what is popular. There are people making these decisions, and they seem to make them more or less the same way most people do.

 

[Buka]

A year ago, I wouldn't have understood that. For the last several months, I've been volunteering with the local sheriff's office, helping provide security at the courthouse (including Superior court). Talking with the cops I get to work with - including the Sgt., who worked undercover vice for a long time - about the people we see there, I think i get it. I sometimes get an odd "feel" from some of the folks coming in for court. If the deputy I'm working with is experienced (most of them have 15+ years on the force), they'll sometimes comment about it, too. They recognize more than I do, and seem to get more information from the feeling. Of course, that's probably because they've had to tune theirs with the experiences they've had over the years.

But, yeah, they pretty much know when someone is likely to be trouble. I've had to remind them that not all of us have their experience to do that with.

You know who else has similar radar? People who were bullied as children. Even at eighty years old they can spot a bully a mile before anyone else can.