The problem with "traditional" martial arts part 3

[Kung Fu Wang]

I agree. But that didn't answer my question.

Your question is "Will you teach technique/strategy from other MA system?" My answer is "Yes, as long as it can help me to achieve my goal".

 

[drop bear]

Unfortunately I’ve known a few ordinary (very few, but a few) folks who had home invasions. Likely (never caught, so not proven) by folks in that first category.

And so you spend you days armed and ready waiting for it to happen to you?

Bear in mind what we are using this to justify.

 

[drop bear]

i follow three principals for a combative event.

• surprise
• speed
• violence of action

this means i attack fast, hard and with as much ferocity as i can without sacrificing integrity, when you least expect it. the level of violence has to be equal or greater than what the other person can muster. most people are not emotionally prepared for sudden intense violence. this has to be trained for and your mental system works better if your inoculated to receive and deal with that level of violence. its my belief that you can train at that intensity and lower the intensity when needed. you can moderate to a lower level easier then the other way around. the common martial art school never rises to that level. most dojos have an atmosphere as if its a social hour. i have seen so many dojos where the sparring is so relaxed and non violent. then a new student will come in and they will "tone it down" for the new guy. they are so far down on the spectrum they would just panic and freeze in a real situation. to Drop Bears credit he is constantly hopping all over people because he knows full well his normal level of intensity for sparring would overwhelm most martial arts practitioners. its like night and day and those who are in low level intensity training dont see it.

And then a spazzy noob comes in and face crushes them. And suddenly they have to reevaluate themselves.

A fighter vs a martial artist. And yes people have this thing where they belive intensity or athleticism is either cheating or magic. Because for my system if i get beaten by a thug of a man with no skill. I am still beaten. It has to be factored in.

If I can neutralise someone using limited methods.

(So I wrestled today. And I threw people to the ground and held them there without hurting them even though they did everything in their power to stop me)

I should be able to do better if I really wanted to kill them and had no restrictions.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well the story I got was that Uechi-ryu didn't have a round kick until someone saw Bruce Lee doing it in the movies. And we thought...gee that looks pretty cool..and the rest is history
Not sure if it's true but it speaks to your question.

Back then, if you can't kick like Bruce Lee did in his movies, you won't be able to get any students.

I agree. But that didn't answer my question.

Some of the kicks in the following clips didn't come from my primary long fist system.

 

[drop bear]

Here is a question. When was the last time you have you seen your instructor loose a fight, a spar or a roll?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is a question. When was the last time you have you seen your instructor loose a fight, a spar or a roll?

You can only judge your teacher by his official tournament record. As far as personal fight, there won't be enough record for that.

In CMA, if you retire from tournament, you no longer need to accept challenge fight. People do try to protect their reputation carefully.

 

[drop bear]

You can only judge your teacher by his official tournament record. As far as personal fight, there won't be any record for that.

Even just seeing him get manhandled in sparring would do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Even just seeing him get manhandled in sparring would do.

I have only seen my teacher who accepted 2 challenged fights in my life time. In one Chicago challenge fight, he broke his opponent's elbow. In one Taipei challenge fight he knocked his opponent 45 degree upward into the air. I didn't know that was possible. I have seen people got knocked down. I have never seen people got "knocked up".

But in CMA, my teacher was a very special case. He was a Chinese spy during WWII. He killed communist spies for National Chinese government.

 

[Anarax]

seems logical but if i look at what and how people train that idea is not obvious to me. what people say is often wishful thinking while what they actually do gives a more accurate picture of their intentions.

i would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Focusing too much on the extreme sides of the spectrum can be problematic in the fact there's a lot of situations where a martial artists won't have the skills to deal with. Meaning, if I focus too much on controlling a poorly motivated untrained opponent then I'm going to be in for a rude awakening in a more serious situation. On the other hand, focusing too much on responding with 100% force will ingrain an over reliance on snapping into that mode. Training at that level and understanding when to use it is where it counts. Ingrained psychological conditioning to an extreme degree can have undesirable legal consequences.

fair enough, but if you follow that logic out it gets flawed at the fringes, the most common scenario is a heated argument. under this premise we would spend the entire class practicing de-escalation. in fact the probability of ever needing your martial art training is so close to zero that we would be better off in a knitting class.

Not necessarily. De-escalation techniques are great to know, but there's a whole spectrum from de-escalation to lethal force that a martial artist should know how to deal with. You mentioned knives earlier. When I choose what kind of knife to carry I factor in practicality, draw time, blade geometry, blade retention and blade dynamics. I don't carry a bowie knife or a machete simply because it's the most lethal. Are there some situations where I might want a machete? Maybe. However, those situations are few and far between.

there is a difference between training for scenario and training for skills. i think your seeing this as an either / or situation and it doesnt have to be. training for a good position is training for a good position. bar fight or deadly interaction is a matter of intensity not of applying different skill sets.

I don't see it as either or, I understand the different between threat awareness and combative skills. However, it's the skills that you're going to be using once the fight starts. The intensity is relative, a man throwing wild haymakers can be KOd by a skilled striker with a few well placed and focused shots. Or can be taken down with a sweep with little effort. Essentially, how one uses their intensity/energy plays a larger factor than intensity itself.

again, this was a specific response to a specific comment and was meant as allegory not literal. it seems this went right over peoples heads.

I understand, I felt I needed to comment because it was such an extreme example that has such a low probability of happening.

this means i attack fast, hard and with as much ferocity as i can without sacrificing integrity, when you least expect it. the level of violence has to be equal or greater than what the other person can muster.

There are definitely situations where that is the best thing to do, but there are other situations where that level of force isn't necessary.

its my belief that you can train at that intensity and lower the intensity when needed. you can moderate to a lower level easier then the other way around. the common martial art school never rises to that level. most dojos have an atmosphere as if its a social hour. i have seen so many dojos where the sparring is so relaxed and non violent.

Agreed. That is a problem in many schools, but if the student is aware of that then I personally don't see a problem. Meaning, if they're training for non-combative reasons like fitness and are aware of it. The problem only arises when the student believes their abilities to be greater than they actually are.

then a new student will come in and they will "tone it down" for the new guy. they are so far down on the spectrum they would just panic and freeze in a real situation.

Interesting. I spoke of this in another thread. I've realized that when I'm paired with a new student I have to "tone it down", but that's necessary for a time. If my instructor or I go all out on a new student in drills or sparring they probably won't come back. There's definitely a point where the new student needs to develop past that stage though.

 

[Buka]

Here is a question. When was the last time you have you seen your instructor loose a fight, a spar or a roll?

1986

 

[drop bear]

1986

See every time my coach camps for a fight he brings in guys who can handle him. And will spend 12 weeks getting mauled.

I think after a while of constantly being the best your judgment suffers.

 

[drop bear]

I have only seen my teacher who accepted 2 challenged fights in my life time. In one Chicago challenge fight, he broke his opponent's elbow. In one Taipei challenge fight he knocked his opponent 45 degree upward into the air. I didn't know that was possible. I have seen people got knocked down. I have never seen people got "knocked up".

But in CMA, my teacher was a very special case. He was a Chinese spy during WWII. He killed communist spies for National Chinese government.

I think that will become kind if a theme.

 

[Danny T]

Here is a question. When was the last time you have you seen your instructor loose a fight, a spar or a roll?

Been a few years... but then I'm in my 60s and they are older than I.
Now I still spar and have several students and fighters who maul me. They are faster, stronger, more resilient, greater cardio and are well trained. They train with me not because of my skills as a fighter today but for my knowledge and ability to help them be good fighters.

 

[hoshin1600]

think after a while of constantly being the best your judgment suffers.

I think this is true but I think the bigger issue pertaining to the thread topic is that many traditional teachers don't actually get on the floor. They hide behind rank, titles, dojo social norms that insulate the sensei from being embarrassed and loosing face. I think many sensei use dojo culture to inflate their image as being super man.

 

[TSDTexan]

I have only seen my teacher who accepted 2 challenged fights in my life time. In one Chicago challenge fight, he broke his opponent's elbow. In one Taipei challenge fight he knocked his opponent 45 degree upward into the air. I didn't know that was possible. I have seen people got knocked down. I have never seen people got "knocked up".

But in CMA, my teacher was a very special case. He was a Chinese spy during WWII. He killed communist spies for National Chinese government.

I have seen women get "knocked up" all the time.

Did it once to a girl who made the mistake of marrying me, about five and a half years ago!

Got a fine son out of the deal too!

Not sure how many falls and what angles.... could have been a 45° involved. Can't say for sure.

No broken elbows, thankfully.

 

[TSDTexan]

Focusing too much on the extreme sides of the spectrum can be problematic in the fact there's a lot of situations where a martial artists won't have the skills to deal with. Meaning, if I focus too much on controlling a poorly motivated untrained opponent then I'm going to be in for a rude awakening in a more serious situation. On the other hand, focusing too much on responding with 100% force will ingrain an over reliance on snapping into that mode. Training at that level and understanding when to use it is where it counts. Ingrained psychological conditioning to an extreme degree can have undesirable legal consequences.


Not necessarily. De-escalation techniques are great to know, but there's a whole spectrum from de-escalation to lethal force that a martial artist should know how to deal with. You mentioned knives earlier. When I choose what kind of knife to carry I factor in practicality, draw time, blade geometry, blade retention and blade dynamics. I don't carry a bowie knife or a machete simply because it's the most lethal. Are there some situations where I might want a machete? Maybe. However, those situations are few and far between.


I don't see it as either or, I understand the different between threat awareness and combative skills. However, it's the skills that you're going to be using once the fight starts. The intensity is relative, a man throwing wild haymakers can be KOd by a skilled striker with a few well placed and focused shots. Or can be taken down with a sweep with little effort. Essentially, how one uses their intensity/energy plays a larger factor than intensity itself.


I understand, I felt I needed to comment because it was such an extreme example that has such a low probability of happening.


There are definitely situations where that is the best thing to do, but there are other situations where that level of force isn't necessary.


Agreed. That is a problem in many schools, but if the student is aware of that then I personally don't see a problem. Meaning, if they're training for non-combative reasons like fitness and are aware of it. The problem only arises when the student believes their abilities to be greater than they actually are.


Interesting. I spoke of this in another thread. I've realized that when I'm paired with a new student I have to "tone it down", but that's necessary for a time. If my instructor or I go all out on a new student in drills or sparring they probably won't come back. There's definitely a point where the new student needs to develop past that stage though.

This is the carry knife I often revert to.
Aitor "Cuchilio De Monte" The mountain knife. Created for the Spanish Special Forces.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And so you spend you days armed and ready waiting for it to happen to you?

Bear in mind what we are using this to justify.

I was just commenting that it does happen. It’s rare, but still real.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is a question. When was the last time you have you seen your instructor loose a fight, a spar or a roll?

That’s a tough one to judge by. Until an instructor has a student capable of beating them (prior training, advanced enough, and/or more athletic), they should probably win every time. That’s not good for their (the instructor’s) development, so they need to seek out equals and betters to train with.

 

[drop bear]

I think this is true but I think the bigger issue pertaining to the thread topic is that many traditional teachers don't actually get on the floor. They hide behind rank, titles, dojo social norms that insulate the sensei from being embarrassed and loosing face. I think many sensei use dojo culture to inflate their image as being super man.

Which brings us back to.

Training to win.

See where I was going with that?

 

[drop bear]

That’s a tough one to judge by. Until an instructor has a student capable of beating them (prior training, advanced enough, and/or more athletic), they should probably win every time. That’s not good for their (the instructor’s) development, so they need to seek out equals and betters to train with.

Did you just get tied in knots by tony?

Did you let him?