The problem with "traditional" martial arts part 3

[Obsidian Fury]

Did you mean kani basami?
"crab leg takedown". It was adopted by Judo from karate.... and after it crippled a few Judoka in competition... be became banned in competition.

While I am not a huge fan of sacrifice throws, kicks or other things that leave me on the ground with my opponent (I would rather, just put him on the ground, and keep on my feet), I will say when applied in the correct moment... it is hard to defend against.

Dr. Kano embraced a lot of the same thoughts that Bruce Lee would preach. Philosophically... Judo as Kano envisioned would be metaphorically a type of JKD's prototype. I am not talking about the punching and kicking... but the maximum results from minimal efforts... and other aspects of the paradigm.

It's not stealing.... it's flattery. I like what you did there so much that I will help preserve that. There was some exchanges of knowledge that Gitchen Funakoshi imparted to Dr. Kano. GF after watching many judo throws, took a turn and demonstrated one that Dr. Kano had never seen before.
Dr. Kano was a bit surprised. GF replied "Oh, well there are throws in karate." It wasn't kani basami btw.

G. Funakoshi taught openly about 12 throws, but as the Shotokan style developed later on the throws were not taught anymore. (for the most part) as Shotokan continued to re engineer the kata, and the basics in them, a lot of techniques were scrapped.

This is a sad thing.
Shotokan Karate is the world's most popular in terms of practicing members.... but it is also the most pugilistic, and least grappling, grabbing, and throwing of the brands of karate.

Swarming a Shotokan stylist is an easy way to stifle and sweat them into realizing that fighting at maximum distance alone is a problem.

G. Funakoshi wasn't good at trapping, and defending close quarters. Which is part of why Choki Motobu was able to throw him 3 times. with a wrist throw.... in front of GFs students.

It could be argued... that Shotokan inherited this from GF.

“When I first came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan [Funakoshi] who was teaching Karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn’t even heard of his name! Upon guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up a position of kake-kumite and said, ‘what will you do?'”
...
“He [Funakoshi] was hesitant and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him with kote-gaeshi (a wrist throw also common to jujutsu and aikido) at which time he fell to the ground with a large thud. He got up, his face red and said ‘once more.’ And again I threw him with kote-gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time.”

The crab leg takedown came from karate? That is so cool! I knew that grappling existed in Karate and TKD but not to that extent. Do you happen to know of some resource material to further look into grappling in Karate? I’ll be very interested in doing some research.

 

[TSDTexan]

The crab leg takedown came from karate? That is so cool! I knew that grappling existed in Karate and TKD but not to that extent. Do you happen to know of some resource material to further look into grappling in Karate? I’ll be very interested in doing some research.

Patrick McCarthy, or Koryu Unchinade or the IRKRS has a lot of it. some of the very best.
the International Ryukyu Karate Research Society
has been doing the research to reincorporate the grappling that was left behind when karate was brought to Japan. they have great stuff.

Iain Abernethy has a fair bit

Karate's Grappling Methods
by Iain Stuart Abernethy
Amazon.com
4.3 out of 5 stars 10
Paperback
$90.95(15 used & new offers)

also look at stuff like...

https://www.amazon.com/Locks-Grappl...&sprefix=karate+grapp&sr=8-97&ref=mp_s_a_1_97

 

[Obsidian Fury]

Patrick McCarthy, or Koryu Unchinade or the IRKRS has a lot of it. some of the very best.
the International Ryukyu Karate Research Society
has been doing the research to reincorporate the grappling that was left behind when karate was brought to Japan. they have great stuff.

Iain Abernethy has a fair bit

Karate's Grappling Methods
by Iain Stuart Abernethy
Amazon.com
4.3 out of 5 stars 10
Paperback
$90.95(15 used & new offers)

also look at stuff like...

https://www.amazon.com/Locks-Grappl...&sprefix=karate+grapp&sr=8-97&ref=mp_s_a_1_97

Looks great thanks a bunch.

 

[Hanzou]

Patrick McCarthy, or Koryu Unchinade or the IRKRS has a lot of it. some of the very best.
the International Ryukyu Karate Research Society
has been doing the research to reincorporate the grappling that was left behind when karate was brought to Japan. they have great stuff.

Iain Abernethy has a fair bit

Karate's Grappling Methods
by Iain Stuart Abernethy
Amazon.com
4.3 out of 5 stars 10
Paperback
$90.95(15 used & new offers)

also look at stuff like...

https://www.amazon.com/Locks-Grappl...&sprefix=karate+grapp&sr=8-97&ref=mp_s_a_1_97

Frankly, there are far too many steps in those grappling vids. I would recommend studying MMA or Bjj grappling to see how they deal with strikes. It's far simpler and no where near complex and over the top.

 

[PhilE]

The problem with traditional Chinese martial arts, is that no one knows what traditional Chinese martial arts actually are, as the Communist government killed all the monks.

 

[Flying Crane]

The problem with traditional Chinese martial arts, is that no one knows what traditional Chinese martial arts actually are, as the Communist government killed all the monks.

This is a very naive statement to make.

The communst government did a lot to suppress the practice of traditional Chinese martial arts. However, there are those who practiced in secret and have brought forth their methods after the government began to relax its persecution. And don’t think for a moment that monks were the only ones practicing traditional martial arts. I don’t know where you would have gotten such a notion.

In addition, plenty of folks emigrated to other parts of the world, both before the communists took over, and as an escape of that government, and took their training with them and are teaching in their adopted homelands.

 

[Martial D]

The problem with traditional Chinese martial arts, is that no one knows what traditional Chinese martial arts actually are, as the Communist government killed all the monks.

How would you explain all of the different teaching lineages? There are lots, and they take them kinda seriously.

 

[PhilE]

Well, if you support and believe a government that has treated Tibet like dirt, best of luck to you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

REMINDER TO ALL MEMBERS:

Political discussion is not permitted on Martial Talk, per the terms of service. If you want to discuss political topics, please visit a forum that fosters such discussion.

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[Headhunter]

Well, if you support and believe a government that has treated Tibet like dirt, best of luck to you.

This is a martial art forum take this crap somewhere else

 

[PhilE]

Appreciate what you are saying moderator, however its impossible to discuss the issues with Chinese traditional martial arts, without mentioning that the Chinese traditional martial artists were largely affected by a historical event.

Its like trying to talk about the dinosaurs but omitting the asteroid, because you don't want to offend anyone.

 

[PhilE]

Headhunter, if you wish to have an opinion you leave yourself open to begin offended. That's the price of free speech.

It's just words on a forum, no one is trying to attack you. You can simply ignore it, if it's upsetting you so much.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Appreciate what you are saying moderator, however its impossible to discuss the issues with Chinese traditional martial arts, without mentioning that the Chinese traditional martial artists were largely affected by a historical event.

Its like trying to talk about the dinosaurs but omitting the asteroid, because you don't want to offend anyone.

And yet, we've managed to do so for years. And will continue to do without the politics. You have my word on that.

 

[PhilE]

Your free to be ignorant of Chinese martial arts history for years more, if you wish.

But others may disagree, and you must accept that.

Editing people on a forum is one thing, this doesn't work in real life.

 

[Martial D]

Well, if you support and believe a government that has treated Tibet like dirt, best of luck to you.

No..no you aren't weaseling out.

You said there are no Chinese martial arts left because China extinguished them all.

So how do you explain teaching lineages that extend in some cases for hundreds of years?

Do you think they are all lying?

 

[PhilE]

If you've just gone and ignored general historical events all your life, I'm not even going to bother try with you.

 

[Martial D]

If you've just gone and ignored general historical events all your life, I'm not even going to bother try with you.

Wow.

So you make a claim that is wrong, objectively, and when gently shown why you pull this nonsense?

If you aren't capable of adult discussion, this isn't the forum for you. Maybe try Reddit.

 

[Bruce7]

There really is no need to post in such an adversarial tone.

I agree with Anarax to a large degree. Like anyone who has a theme and is trying to make a point in a blog post, I think Rackemann is guilty of somewhat "overstating" his case in most of these blogs he writes. But he does make some excellent points, and ones that do often apply to "traditional" schools. I do believe that you can't generalize what he says to ALL "traditional" martial arts, and he would probably tell you the same thing. And a lot of what he says could also apply to the local boxing gym or MMA gym. But most of his points are well-founded. Rackemann never said that he is the only one that "doesn't suck" and "has it all figured out."

Again, this article was all about the "mindset" of a lot of traditional martial arts. Obviously you can't generalize it to ALL of them, but I've seen it as well. If you don't have this "mindset", then you have nothing to worry about.

You and the article make good points.

My teachers did not tell me my art was magic and it would allow me to beat others, their abilities convince me of that.
I had the mistaken idea that ,because I was very good at MA, that I could beat an All Navy boxer.
I had not thought that only the best physically able people would be an All Navy boxer.
I had not thought that He trains 8 hours a day and I only train 2 hours a day.
He goes around the world fighting the best fighters once a month.
After he knock me out in the first round, I learn my MAs were not magic.
IMO winning a fight has to do with physical ability and hours of training, more than which Art you are train in.
IMO Mayweather in his prime could beat any martial artist in the ring.
On the street fighting with someone like Jack Hwang in his prime, who had amazing abilities and fought in the Korean War,
I am not as sure about the out come.

 

[Flying Crane]

Appreciate what you are saying moderator, however its impossible to discuss the issues with Chinese traditional martial arts, without mentioning that the Chinese traditional martial artists were largely affected by a historical event.

Its like trying to talk about the dinosaurs but omitting the asteroid, because you don't want to offend anyone.

So...where did you come up with the belief that only monks were training Chinese martial arts? And that nobody today even knows what real traditional Chinese martial arts look like?

Why do you believe this?

 

[Bruce7]

So...where did you come up with the belief that only monks were training Chinese martial arts? And that nobody today even knows what real traditional Chinese martial arts look like?

Why do you believe this?

I agree with you.
Teachers do not want their knowledge to die.
So Traditional Chinese Martial arts did not die.
Most of the teachers left China, when the Communist took over,
because they did not want to be limited and controlled by Wushu.