The problem with "traditional" martial arts.

[now disabled]

Where the heck were you training that this was a regimen for a 6 year old?

I think like some lineages there is ummm embellishment going on lol

 

[alcm93]

here is the problem with this statement; depending on local laws anything and everything can be deemed illegal. a common pen would be considered illegal if you stuck it in someones eye. the "five finger exploding heart technique" can be perfectly legal,,,it all depends on the context. any martial art move can be illegal or legal depending on context, not the technique itself.


im still curious as to what styles you see as anything more then civilian self defense and sport.
there are plenty of martial arts that do have a link to military applications but they are not what people usually think and are often obscure.
quickly off the top of my head ,military links:

• Muay (Thai) boran
• Krav maga
• Filipino Pekiti -Kali
• Indonesian Pencak- Silat
• American MACP and MACMAP (basically BJJ)
• Japanese Koryu arts
• Pankration was a Greek military PT activity but is now extinct.

the hallmark of a military combative art is that it begins and ends with weapons and unarmed is only a side note to the core of the art. this puts a large portion of Asian arts as civilian variants of competitive sport and self defense.

True the hallmark of MA back in the day was weapons and these were learned by soldiers and nobles, they began training hand to hand as a basis to build their weapon skill on. Regardless of that civilians lived in a hostile environment so MA that required little to no equipment (meaning weapons) were devised, an example is Chinese boxing trained by Monks, Monks didn't go to war yet they learned to fight to protect themselves and their land, Karate is another example. This styles that require mainly one's body were more used by civilians as weapons were very expensive. In Spain, during the Arab occupation if I'm not mistaken, civilians learned to fight with whatever they had at hand. As for more sports oriented MA I'll say it is more of a current age trend, MA tournaments took place historically to hone warriors during times of piece.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[alcm93]

What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?

Hello gpseymour! Thanks for responding. What I would regard as illegal, training wise, are first and foremost the time spent.

Now a days classes range from 90 min to 30 min each, back in the day it was a full day commitment, not that they trained MA all day but had a very well rounded education that took several hours every day, not to mention that time slots were very strict, this would keep many kids out of school and last time I checked that is penalized, also for adults their jobs are crucial so skipping on your job is a no go. Times have changed and that is good, but obtaining a high degree of skill requires a lot of time and now a days that time is predestined for other activities.

MA are high risk activities, training in the most traditional way possible comes with a higher chance of injury or worse, exerting your body comes with risks. There are many regulatory institutions that check for safe environments and have the power to punish your practice. in many MA generating micro fractures is part of the training if by some chance a practitioner with MF acquired in the Dojo injured himself doing something else he is likely to sue, thus restricting what is a sensei can teach without getting sued. Likewise there are are many drills for conditioning that elevate the level of risk and insurance companies will rocket your prime.

Thinking about it calling them Illegal is not accurate, maybe prompt to legal issues may be more spot on.

Waiting for your reply.

 

[alcm93]

Where the heck were you training that this was a regimen for a 6 year old?

Hello Kempodisciple! Nice to meet you. Yes this was my training regime at 6 and I say the truth, it is not embellished. Back home in Mexico and during my trips, the Masters that I have had access to are the real deal, old school real deal. I started with the intent of surpassing the greatest MA and I still pursue that goal, so I signed up for that, my Masters not only are great practitioners themselves, most of them have Menkyo Kaiden, were Olympians or world contenders, former military, you choose. They also train the best! they have disciples who have gone to World Championships and have stood on the podium, trained Olympians, trained military special forces, and so on. That is what I signed up for thus that is what I get.

Also I'm very lucky as my family is rather filthy rich, so we put my Masters on the Payroll, bought land in different cities and out side of them and built training facilities for me, we pay great practitioners to come and spar with me, pay great Masters around the globe to come several months to my house to train me, I travel constantly to train around the globe, and as for partners my Masters chose several age appropriate partners and we gave them a sort of scholarship so I have someone to train with. This allows my masters not to worry about Insurance, managing a school of their own (Although many do), among other things. All of this allows my masters to let loose without restrictions thus engaging in more risky highly rewarding training.

I missed a lot of regular school to be able to train and travel and it wasn't an issue I'm smart so I was always caught up, we hired Uni Professors to push my education ahead thus school was more of a formality. Not to mention that Mexican law is loose regarding attendance and a few bucks will take them off you. It wasn't a problem, after all I have two degrees from North Eastern U in Boston for Mathematics and Physics.

What I mean is that I had to sacrifice many things towards my ends, I am working to be the greatest MA, a great researcher of Math and Physics, a renowned businessman, among other things. Because of that I never had a birthday party, never went to a sleep over, never have a girlfriend, never go partying, training and studying during vacations, skipped many christmases, etc.

It sound like over kill but this is what I chose when I was only a kid and I don't regret it. I know it looks and sounds weird but it is the truth.

Waiting for your reply.

 

[alcm93]

I think like some lineages there is ummm embellishment going on lol

Hello, you can check my reply to Kempodisciple to get further insight. I did not embellish my response.

 

[alcm93]

What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?

Please check my first post here Self introduction & several aspects of street fighting, and my opinion on MA in such scenarios. I go into detail on traditional training I believe this may help to clear any misunderstanding.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hello gpseymour! Thanks for responding. What I would regard as illegal, training wise, are first and foremost the time spent.

Now a days classes range from 90 min to 30 min each, back in the day it was a full day commitment, not that they trained MA all day but had a very well rounded education that took several hours every day, not to mention that time slots were very strict, this would keep many kids out of school and last time I checked that is penalized, also for adults their jobs are crucial so skipping on your job is a no go. Times have changed and that is good, but obtaining a high degree of skill requires a lot of time and now a days that time is predestined for other activities.

MA are high risk activities, training in the most traditional way possible comes with a higher chance of injury or worse, exerting your body comes with risks. There are many regulatory institutions that check for safe environments and have the power to punish your practice. in many MA generating micro fractures is part of the training if by some chance a practitioner with MF acquired in the Dojo injured himself doing something else he is likely to sue, thus restricting what is a sensei can teach without getting sued. Likewise there are are many drills for conditioning that elevate the level of risk and insurance companies will rocket your prime.

Thinking about it calling them Illegal is not accurate, maybe prompt to legal issues may be more spot on.

Waiting for your reply.

I could teach all day every day, with full-contact sparring and high-risk techniques without breaking any laws or running afoul of any regulatory institutions (there really aren't any to regulate me, beyond my legal liability in court). It probably wouldn't be a good idea, but I can't think of where there'd be anything illegal in it.

If you meant that modern life - and the expectations of modern students - make parts of traditional training inadvisable or inaccessible, I'd agree with that.

 

[hoshin1600]

i hope everyone realizes this thread had degraded into the world of unicorns and rainbow colored chi balls shooting out of the rear end.
so just in case anyone ever wanted to know, i began my training when i was 8 years old and i used to spend a lot of time out in the woods. i met this bigfoot named Charlie and he taught me the warrior traditions of the bigfoot. he only did this because, to his knowledge he was the last of his species. most of the bigfoot species was wiped out during the Kjadoree war between the bigfoot and neanderthal. anyways i am the only known keeper of the tradition.

 

[alcm93]

I could teach all day every day, with full-contact sparring and high-risk techniques without breaking any laws or running afoul of any regulatory institutions (there really aren't any to regulate me, beyond my legal liability in court). It probably wouldn't be a good idea, but I can't think of where there'd be anything illegal in it.

If you meant that modern life - and the expectations of modern students - make parts of traditional training inadvisable or inaccessible, I'd agree with that.

Hey gpseymour! I'm starting to think that I'm not communicating my opinions correctly. You may be surprised but my favorite part of training is doing forms. While sparring of any kind and high risk techniques have their upsides, they are not the main focus of any MA, combat alone isn't the main focus, MA are about self growth our journey is towards that end, as I have established I'm a peaceful guy.

First of all just as you say modern life makes parts of traditional training inadvisable and inaccessible, on that we can agree. At the end of my last reply I corrected myself that calling the illegal is a stretch, but are prompt to causing legal issues. I believe that you teach at North Carolina, U.S.A. you know how strict law is in the U.S. and that law suits are more common than in other parts of the world. Stating that I'll like to give an example to clear any miscommunication I may have caused and properly land my argument:

I'll speak from experience. One of the drills that I do constantly is body conditioning, Iron bone, weight lifting, and isometrics for the tendons are a few examples. These drills consist on causing micro damage to the body and giving the body time to rest to recover from such injuries, after many years of conditioning your bones, muscles, and tendons become denser thus more resilient, they allow you to strike with more power, sustain power-full blows with less damage, increase your threshold of pain, etc. This conditioning while it doesn't increase your size does increase your mass, you look almost the same but are heavier, denser.

There is a price to pay you are indeed damaging your body to give it a chance to recuperate and become stronger, if done properly there should not be any problems, but a tiny mistake can cripple a person, loss of mobility, dislocation of joints, tearing muscles, bone fracture, among other injuries do happen. I do said training because I want to and am aware of the risks, also I have my training grounds are registered as my private property, just a piece of land no need for an audit of any kind. Should these drills be practiced in a school registered as such and a student injures himself, regardless of the cause, their parents or themselves may look to sue the school, it will be worse if you work with children, every commercial activity in the world has a regulator in the government for sporting facilities I'm betting money there is one. Should injury occur this government institutions can penalize said school.

Another one drill is standing on two poles and executing a number of movements it is great for balance and developing proper biomechanics. While doing this it is easy to slip and roll your ankle, you may also hit your head really hard. Many practitioners, and parents will not like that and will look forward that the school faces legal consequences.

These kind of training may not be illegal but as there is a risk of injury there is a risk of law suit. Thus I believe that many schools opt to take this part of the training as it may have legal consequences. Gpseymour you may be capable enough to hold riskier training in a safe manner, and still you choose not to do so. I believe that be can accept that "riskier" drills do work and help you improve a great deal, these are not for show. There are many drills like the ones I talked about, they work, but hold a higher risk. These drills will help practitioners develop a great deal but the risks involved may be more than what the teacher is willing to risk. At the end of the day it is a compromise.

Waiting for your reply.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey gpseymour! I'm starting to think that I'm not communicating my opinions correctly. You may be surprised but my favorite part of training is doing forms. While sparring of any kind and high risk techniques have their upsides, they are not the main focus of any MA, combat alone isn't the main focus, MA are about self growth our journey is towards that end, as I have established I'm a peaceful guy.

First of all just as you say modern life makes parts of traditional training inadvisable and inaccessible, on that we can agree. At the end of my last reply I corrected myself that calling the illegal is a stretch, but are prompt to causing legal issues. I believe that you teach at North Carolina, U.S.A. you know how strict law is in the U.S. and that law suits are more common than in other parts of the world. Stating that I'll like to give an example to clear any miscommunication I may have caused and properly land my argument:

I'll speak from experience. One of the drills that I do constantly is body conditioning, Iron bone, weight lifting, and isometrics for the tendons are a few examples. These drills consist on causing micro damage to the body and giving the body time to rest to recover from such injuries, after many years of conditioning your bones, muscles, and tendons become denser thus more resilient, they allow you to strike with more power, sustain power-full blows with less damage, increase your threshold of pain, etc. This conditioning while it doesn't increase your size does increase your mass, you look almost the same but are heavier, denser.

There is a price to pay you are indeed damaging your body to give it a chance to recuperate and become stronger, if done properly there should not be any problems, but a tiny mistake can cripple a person, loss of mobility, dislocation of joints, tearing muscles, bone fracture, among other injuries do happen. I do said training because I want to and am aware of the risks, also I have my training grounds are registered as my private property, just a piece of land no need for an audit of any kind. Should these drills be practiced in a school registered as such and a student injures himself, regardless of the cause, their parents or themselves may look to sue the school, it will be worse if you work with children, every commercial activity in the world has a regulator in the government for sporting facilities I'm betting money there is one. Should injury occur this government institutions can penalize said school.

Another one drill is standing on two poles and executing a number of movements it is great for balance and developing proper biomechanics. While doing this it is easy to slip and roll your ankle, you may also hit your head really hard. Many practitioners, and parents will not like that and will look forward that the school faces legal consequences.

These kind of training may not be illegal but as there is a risk of injury there is a risk of law suit. Thus I believe that many schools opt to take this part of the training as it may have legal consequences. Gpseymour you may be capable enough to hold riskier training in a safe manner, and still you choose not to do so. I believe that be can accept that "riskier" drills do work and help you improve a great deal, these are not for show. There are many drills like the ones I talked about, they work, but hold a higher risk. These drills will help practitioners develop a great deal but the risks involved may be more than what the teacher is willing to risk. At the end of the day it is a compromise.

Waiting for your reply.

In the US, there's not a regulatory body for MA schools. There might be one for fitness centers, but I'm not aware of it (and I've taught at a fitness center). There is no central regulatory body for sports - most are regulated by the organizing association of the sport, and there's not one for martial arts. Even teaching kids, there are no additional regulations - just the normal laws regarding child endangerment, etc. I know in countries like the UK there are specific regulations dealing with kids' programs and they include kids' MA programs - that's not the case in the US. The closest we'd come is if a MA school is part of a MA organization, that organization has some - very little - ability to regulate the school. Basically, even those groups can't usually do more than expel the school from the organization.

 

[alcm93]

i hope everyone realizes this thread had degraded into the world of unicorns and rainbow colored chi balls shooting out of the rear end.
so just in case anyone ever wanted to know, i began my training when i was 8 years old and i used to spend a lot of time out in the woods. i met this bigfoot named Charlie and he taught me the warrior traditions of the bigfoot. he only did this because, to his knowledge he was the last of his species. most of the bigfoot species was wiped out during the Kjadoree war between the bigfoot and neanderthal. anyways i am the only known keeper of the tradition.

Hello Hoshin1600. When did anyone here derailed the discussion in said manner? Everyone here speaks from experience, and most likely have never met face to face, thus claiming that someone's life experiences are false is insulting. In the forum I see nothing that can be called fantasy, the world is huge, there are as many experiences, life styles, and points of view as there are people. Rejecting someone's claims without having proof that such claims are false just shows how narrow is one's vision and at the same time it goes to show their limitations. We are here trying to built something, no need to wreck a building without seeing the results.

 

[alcm93]

In the US, there's not a regulatory body for MA schools. There might be one for fitness centers, but I'm not aware of it (and I've taught at a fitness center). There is no central regulatory body for sports - most are regulated by the organizing association of the sport, and there's not one for martial arts. Even teaching kids, there are no additional regulations - just the normal laws regarding child endangerment, etc. I know in countries like the UK there are specific regulations dealing with kids' programs and they include kids' MA programs - that's not the case in the US. The closest we'd come is if a MA school is part of a MA organization, that organization has some - very little - ability to regulate the school. Basically, even those groups can't usually do more than expel the school from the organization.

Hello Gpseymour! I did not know that but it is good to know, also I have to admit that I was wrong, there is no such training that could be call illegal. You really are a great Sensei, from your previous posts it looks that you take very good care of your students. This goes to show that I have a lot to learn, I'm only a disciple after all. I'll look forward to learning from you.

 

[alcm93]

My first post here was about how MA are not what they used to be, while I believe it to be true it did a poor job on answering the threats question. The problem with "traditional" martial arts.

My answer is that there is no problem with TMA. MA were created many years ago and cover a number of aspects, their goal was to improve the life of practitioners and make a positive change in peoples lives. I believe that the original goal holds true to this day.

MA in any shape or form be it MMA, TMA, HMA, or any other type of MA improve the life of the practitioners and make a positive change. Whether you train to be a contender in the UFC or the Olympics, train for protection, train to stop being bullied, train for research, train to improve yourself, train for a good workout, train to defend your country, or train to seek for answers you are walking towards that goal. Regardless of style you are always looking forward to improve yourself, any approach you choose however crazy it sounds as long as you are serious it is OK.

Training 10 years in a monastery in China to find your truth is just as commendable as training TKD in Texas to contend in regionals.

In conclusion training in any style you like with any goal in you might have in mind as long as it take s you to improve the life of practitioners and make a positive change in peoples lives, to me you are one hell of a Martial Artist. So long as you are hones, earnest, and pure there is no problem with your Martial Arts.

Waiting for answers.

 

[KPM]

My first post here was about how MA are not what they used to be, while I believe it to be true it did a poor job on answering the threats question. The problem with "traditional" martial arts.

My answer is that there is no problem with TMA. MA were created many years ago and cover a number of aspects, their goal was to improve the life of practitioners and make a positive change in peoples lives. I believe that the original goal holds true to this day.

.

I think you have a rather romantic and inaccurate view of the origins of "traditional" martial arts. In China many of the TCMAs were developed to defend the local village. Often TCMA practitioners became body guards for the rich, or bandits. There was a period in chinese history when anyone that was a TCMA practitioner was looked down upon as a thug and from the lower classes of society. So it wasn't always about turning everyone in an enlightened sage!

I know less about traditional Japanese martial arts, but don't imagine that it was much different. The old-school traditional Ryu were about training Samurai for combat. Samurai often treated the commoners very brutally. They weren't exactly enlightened sages either!