The problem with "traditional" martial arts.

[drop bear]

I think this is one of the points I was thinking of. I would be less concerned about beating someone (or even two if possible) as opposed to the option of simply disengaging as the better part of valor. Its much harder to leave a situation if you're in a ground fighting clinch.

I have no disrespect for grapplers wherever they come from.

Not really. In ground fighting i still have gravity.

So if i cant disengage from a standing clinch i can still take the guy down put a knee in to something and using that as a lever to get back up.

There are standing rear naked defences that work through that.

Fighting is a puzzle. And sometimes you have to take the roundabout route to solve them.

 

[alcm93]

Interesting! From my point of view there is a lot of truth in here I'll like to give my opinion. I'm a traditional MA, I am as traditional as it gets. First of I believe that TMA whatever the style are all very powerful on their own they were used in actual wars after all, however MAs were created not for the sole purpose of war but for the purpose of self growth in many different aspects, I speak more about it in here ( Self introduction & several aspects of street fighting, and my opinion on MA in such scenarios. ). Saying that I do see recurring problems in TMA schools which have been addressed in this forum, and with them many creative solutions. In my opinion it is all about commitment, think about it an honest days work last 8 hours so does a good day of school, so far kids learn stuff and companies keep running. I believe that 1 hour a day of something doesn't do the trick if your goal is to be very good at it, even worse many student's go two times a week.

I started training at the age of 2, while there isn't much you can teach a 2 year old I did became the "World Champ of breaking falls and rolling over" or so said my Judo Sensei. As I got older, age 6, and my pool of Masters grew training became more demanding.
Beginning with jogging every morning at 5:00 AM before school 2 Km in total, luckily I'm a bit hyperactive so no problem.
After school I had strength training, running a mile, doing footwork drills, and while a 6 year old should not lift weights there are ways around it, carrying my partners on my back, doing princess carries, lifting rocks, bodyweight, climbing trees, etc.
After lunch we get technical it is time for class we have 2 hours of drills starting from Ashi-sabaki, Tai-sabaki, Uchikomi, Randori, sparring, and practicing moves.
Then we stretch and stretch really good 15 minutes of stretching and isometrics.
Finally to the kids who work hard stay for an extra hour to learn the things the other kids don't for Judo it was Atemi, kin-no-waza (forbidden techniques), Kata, Goshinjutsu, the reviving method which I can't name, then you have controlled sparring involving said curriculum.
After Judo we all had to do something else like swimming, horseback riding, gymnastics, other MA, Soccer, you choose. As I said I was 6 at the time.
Also we needed to keep up the GPA other wise we get expelled, this training was a 6 day training, that was only for Judo I train many other TMAs luckily my masters get along so mi schedule is distributed so I get to do everything
Currently I'm 25 and while it is very similar the complexity of training is ever increasing, now it is 6 Km the morning and you can imagine the rest.

I have dedicated a good portion of my lifetime to MA several hours each day even on vacation I have to follow the routine my Masters give me, last summer my masters put me in the cage against a local MMA fighter, all I can say is I won with my TMA Aikido, Wing Chun, TKD, Tai Chi, you choose. It wasn't easy the guy was one hell of a fighter had I nod done all those years of rigorous training I would have lost rather miserably.

Back in the day MA used to train several hours a day thus they became renown warriors, now a day MMA fighters train several hours a day thus they are great fighters and that is what they want to be. Now if someone wants to be a great MA he has to put in the hours and do things that they don't like to do, just like I didn't like to train without a Gi when I was a child but I learned to fight with or without it thus in my MMA friendly match I was able to adapt. This isn't easy most people don't put in the hours to anything and don't like stepping out of their comfort zone it is a matter of will, and sadly money training is expensive.

Lastly I know that TMAs have not change they are as powerful as ever but while the MA remains the same the way we practice does change and it reflects badly on our beloved styles, I believe everyone here loves MA otherwise they wouldn't be talking here. As an example please check the following videos the first is of my TKD Sabonim Manuel Jurado Malacara TKD practitioner in the Olympics, representing Mexico, the second is of the 2017 World TKD Championship final. I'm sure you will notice the difference while both are TKD competitions I believe only one is TKD.

The first of my beloved Master:

The second of the World Final:

Have a great day.

 

[hoshin1600]

Interesting! From my point of view there is a lot of truth in here I'll like to give my opinion. I'm a traditional MA, I am as traditional as it gets. First of I believe that TMA whatever the style are all very powerful on their own they were used in actual wars after all, however MAs were created not for the sole purpose of war but for the purpose of self growth in many different aspects, I speak more about it in here ( Self introduction & several aspects of street fighting, and my opinion on MA in such scenarios. ). Saying that I do see recurring problems in TMA schools which have been addressed in this forum, and with them many creative solutions. In my opinion it is all about commitment, think about it an honest days work last 8 hours so does a good day of school, so far kids learn stuff and companies keep running. I believe that 1 hour a day of something doesn't do the trick if your goal is to be very good at it, even worse many student's go two times a week.

I started training at the age of 2, while there isn't much you can teach a 2 year old I did became the "World Champ of breaking falls and rolling over" or so said my Judo Sensei. As I got older, age 6, and my pool of Masters grew training became more demanding.
Beginning with jogging every morning at 5:00 AM before school 2 Km in total, luckily I'm a bit hyperactive so no problem.
After school I had strength training, running a mile, doing footwork drills, and while a 6 year old should not lift weights there are ways around it, carrying my partners on my back, doing princess carries, lifting rocks, bodyweight, climbing trees, etc.
After lunch we get technical it is time for class we have 2 hours of drills starting from Ashi-sabaki, Tai-sabaki, Uchikomi, Randori, sparring, and practicing moves.
Then we stretch and stretch really good 15 minutes of stretching and isometrics.
Finally to the kids who work hard stay for an extra hour to learn the things the other kids don't for Judo it was Atemi, kin-no-waza (forbidden techniques), Kata, Goshinjutsu, the reviving method which I can't name, then you have controlled sparring involving said curriculum.
After Judo we all had to do something else like swimming, horseback riding, gymnastics, other MA, Soccer, you choose. As I said I was 6 at the time.
Also we needed to keep up the GPA other wise we get expelled, this training was a 6 day training, that was only for Judo I train many other TMAs luckily my masters get along so mi schedule is distributed so I get to do everything
Currently I'm 25 and while it is very similar the complexity of training is ever increasing, now it is 6 Km the morning and you can imagine the rest.

I have dedicated a good portion of my lifetime to MA several hours each day even on vacation I have to follow the routine my Masters give me, last summer my masters put me in the cage against a local MMA fighter, all I can say is I won with my TMA Aikido, Wing Chun, TKD, Tai Chi, you choose. It wasn't easy the guy was one hell of a fighter had I nod done all those years of rigorous training I would have lost rather miserably.

Back in the day MA used to train several hours a day thus they became renown warriors, now a day MMA fighters train several hours a day thus they are great fighters and that is what they want to be. Now if someone wants to be a great MA he has to put in the hours and do things that they don't like to do, just like I didn't like to train without a Gi when I was a child but I learned to fight with or without it thus in my MMA friendly match I was able to adapt. This isn't easy most people don't put in the hours to anything and don't like stepping out of their comfort zone it is a matter of will, and sadly money training is expensive.

Lastly I know that TMAs have not change they are as powerful as ever but while the MA remains the same the way we practice does change and it reflects badly on our beloved styles, I believe everyone here loves MA otherwise they wouldn't be talking here. As an example please check the following videos the first is of my TKD Sabonim Manuel Jurado Malacara TKD practitioner in the Olympics, representing Mexico, the second is of the 2017 World TKD Championship final. I'm sure you will notice the difference while both are TKD competitions I believe only one is TKD.

The first of my beloved Master:

The second of the World Final:

Have a great day.

a good post overall however i do wonder about this following quote:

First of I believe that TMA whatever the style are all very powerful on their own they were used in actual wars after all

its pretty much a myth that todays martial arts were used in any kind of military fighting or war.

 

[alcm93]

a good post overall however i do wonder about this following quote:



its pretty much a myth that todays martial arts were used in any kind of military fighting or war.

Hello hoshin1600 I'm glad you pointed that out. I poorly phrased that sentence, sure MA were design with a combat aspect but not all were used in War. Some were used by only the nobles and knights, and some by the foot soldiers. Some were of civilian use. And some styles that we think today as MA are sort of complement, like a workout, QI Gong and several styles of Tai Chi do fall under this category. Those are not a stand alone art but an organized method to keep healthy, still very good for you over-all.

 

[now disabled]

a good post overall however i do wonder about this following quote:



its pretty much a myth that todays martial arts were used in any kind of military fighting or war.

Your last sentence is so true ad well put as it is a myth that what is taught today or for a long long long time was ever used in actual battle. It is an evolution (bits added bits taken out ) if you will of the original.

On a lighter note if you were to be taught the original then you might well end up in jail fr a long time lol as some of what was taught isn't umm legal now lol

 

[alcm93]

Your last sentence is so true ad well put as it is a myth that what is taught today or for a long long long time was ever used in actual battle. It is an evolution (bits added bits taken out ) if you will of the original.

On a lighter note if you were to be taught the original then you might well end up in jail fr a long time lol as some of what was taught isn't umm legal now lol

Hey you have a mouth-full of truth, most of the traditional usage is illegal, not only that but i'm sure sensei's insurance won't cover for relentless training.

 

[now disabled]

Hey you have a mouth-full of truth, most of the traditional usage is illegal, not only that but i'm sure sensei's insurance won't cover for relentless training.

Thanks ......I think lol

 

[hoshin1600]

On a lighter note if you were to be taught the original then you might well end up in jail fr a long time lol as some of what was taught isn't umm legal now lol

here is the problem with this statement; depending on local laws anything and everything can be deemed illegal. a common pen would be considered illegal if you stuck it in someones eye. the "five finger exploding heart technique" can be perfectly legal,,,it all depends on the context. any martial art move can be illegal or legal depending on context, not the technique itself.

MA were design with a combat aspect but not all were used in War. Some were used by only the nobles and knights, and some by the foot soldiers. Some were of civilian use.

im still curious as to what styles you see as anything more then civilian self defense and sport.
there are plenty of martial arts that do have a link to military applications but they are not what people usually think and are often obscure.
quickly off the top of my head ,military links:

• Muay (Thai) boran
• Krav maga
• Filipino Pekiti -Kali
• Indonesian Pencak- Silat
• American MACP and MACMAP (basically BJJ)
• Japanese Koryu arts
• Pankration was a Greek military PT activity but is now extinct.

the hallmark of a military combative art is that it begins and ends with weapons and unarmed is only a side note to the core of the art. this puts a large portion of Asian arts as civilian variants of competitive sport and self defense.

 

[now disabled]

here is the problem with this statement; depending on local laws anything and everything can be deemed illegal. a common pen would be considered illegal if you stuck it in someones eye. the "five finger exploding heart technique" can be perfectly legal,,,it all depends on the context. any martial art move can be illegal or legal depending on context, not the technique itself.


im still curious as to what styles you see as anything more then civilian self defense and sport.
there are plenty of martial arts that do have a link to military applications but they are not what people usually think and are often obscure.
quickly off the top of my head ,military links:

• Muay (Thai) boran
• Krav maga
• Filipino Pekiti -Kali
• Indonesian Pencak- Silat
• American MACP and MACMAP (basically BJJ)
• Japanese Koryu arts
• Pankration was a Greek military PT activity but is now extinct.

the hallmark of a military combative art is that it begins and ends with weapons and unarmed is only a side note to the core of the art. this puts a large portion of Asian arts as civilian variants of competitive sport and self defense.

sorry I was being tongue in cheek as regards legality my apologies

 

[hoshin1600]

sorry I was being tongue in cheek as regards legality my apologies

ok sorry i missed that

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey you have a mouth-full of truth, most of the traditional usage is illegal, not only that but i'm sure sensei's insurance won't cover for relentless training.

What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?

 

[_Simon_]

What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?

I'd say the bare feet aspect... (bunch of hippies!)

 

[JR 137]

What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?

I’d say fraud is illegal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’d say fraud is illegal.

You reckon that's part of traditional training?

 

[JR 137]

You reckon that's part of traditional training?

There are some frauds out there teaching fraudulent stuff. I’m not saying they’re the norm, but they’re out there.

 

[dvcochran]

Other than live-blade sword arts and the like, what are these “traditional styles” that aren’t sparring? I’ve heard about them, yet haven’t come across any.

We also need to define sparring a bit. Dancing around and playing tag with oversized protective equipment is sparring, but does it really teach anything useful in actual combat? I’m not bashing protective equipment, I’m bashing wearing stuff that falsely teaches the students they can take a punch, and the they’re throwing wouldn’t kill an ant. And I’m bashing stopping and resetting sparring every time the slightest contact is made.

But not doing any sparring at all? I’ve never seen it.

Very much agree with the stop and reset comment. Of course, if working an attack or counter you have to stop and correct/adjust. We do suit up most of the time when sparring and stress hard contact. At least a few times a month we will use headgear only. It is very sobering for some, especially lower belts to really get whacked. A very important experience everyone needs to have, multiple times IMHO. The sparring is very different when suited up. Harder and faster, maybe less control. I do loosely translate this to a SD situation. I tell them they need to know what their full out speed and power feels like against resistance. And what to do after a hard attack. That element of speed/power and the attached surprise (hopefully) is priceless in SD.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are some frauds out there teaching fraudulent stuff. I’m not saying they’re the norm, but they’re out there.

Agreed. I don't think that's a characteristic of traditional training, though.

 

[JR 137]

Agreed. I don't think that's a characteristic of traditional training, though.

It’s a characteristic of EVERYTHING IMO. Training and everything else.

 

[JR 137]

Very much agree with the stop and reset comment. Of course, if working an attack or counter you have to stop and correct/adjust. We do suit up most of the time when sparring and stress hard contact. At least a few times a month we will use headgear only. It is very sobering for some, especially lower belts to really get whacked. A very important experience everyone needs to have, multiple times IMHO. The sparring is very different when suited up. Harder and faster, maybe less control. I do loosely translate this to a SD situation. I tell them they need to know what their full out speed and power feels like against resistance. And what to do after a hard attack. That element of speed/power and the attached surprise (hopefully) is priceless in SD.

My first stint in karate was when I was 18-25 years old. It was a Kyokushin offshoot. We were bare knuckle when I started out, and the only protective equipment was a cup and mouthpiece. You learned very quickly what worked and what didn’t. You learned very quickly how to block, which strikes to take, and which ones to avoid like the plague. Hopefully you did anyway

Our organization’s head guys decided about 2 years into my stint to mandate protective gear - hands, feet, and head. Honestly, it was a good move for us for the long term. Too many people getting busted up, quitting, etc. We weren’t supposed to go bare knuckle AT ALL after that, but my sensei kept it around behind closed doors for those who wanted to. We had “Friday night fights,” which was by invitation only and he closed the blinds. That was the way to go IMO - protective gear most of the time, but hard contact periodically to keep people sharp and things realistic.

There are a lot of lessons to be learned from that that quite frankly can’t be taught any other way. Mike Tyson’s “everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face” quote held true. We didn’t punch each other in the face (or head), but you know what I mean. I’m not saying it’s for everybody, but if you’re serious about training, it can’t be ignored.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I started training at the age of 2, while there isn't much you can teach a 2 year old I did became the "World Champ of breaking falls and rolling over" or so said my Judo Sensei. As I got older, age 6, and my pool of Masters grew training became more demanding.
Beginning with jogging every morning at 5:00 AM before school 2 Km in total, luckily I'm a bit hyperactive so no problem.
After school I had strength training, running a mile, doing footwork drills, and while a 6 year old should not lift weights there are ways around it, carrying my partners on my back, doing princess carries, lifting rocks, bodyweight, climbing trees, etc.
After lunch we get technical it is time for class we have 2 hours of drills starting from Ashi-sabaki, Tai-sabaki, Uchikomi, Randori, sparring, and practicing moves.
Then we stretch and stretch really good 15 minutes of stretching and isometrics.
Finally to the kids who work hard stay for an extra hour to learn the things the other kids don't for Judo it was Atemi, kin-no-waza (forbidden techniques), Kata, Goshinjutsu, the reviving method which I can't name, then you have controlled sparring involving said curriculum.
After Judo we all had to do something else like swimming, horseback riding, gymnastics, other MA, Soccer, you choose. As I said I was 6 at the time.
Also we needed to keep up the GPA other wise we get expelled, this training was a 6 day training, that was only for Judo I train many other TMAs luckily my masters get along so mi schedule is distributed so I get to do everything

Where the heck were you training that this was a regimen for a 6 year old?