Problems with "traditional arts" part 2

[TSDTexan]

true.

the entire original Uechi curriculum is very short.

7 strikes, 2 kicks and knees , 1 circle block
3 kata
kotekitai (arm pounding exercise)

is it any wonder they added a bunch of stuff. the extra forms are good but they dont actually express any new principals or concepts. its just the same re hashed stuff from the original three. this is why i decided to drop them, at least for my own practice.
for myself i found not having a lot of material led me to go down a historical archaeological rabbit hole of discovery. how did the seniors do this kata in the past? how did the founder do it? how did his Chinese teacher do it? were these the only kata? what original Chinese style was this? what other styles are related and how do they do similar moves? what other forms do they do that might have other principals?

at the end of that rabbit hole i end up with..how do i want to do the kata? then i spent 20 years pulling apart and dissecting every aspect of the kata and the meanings that lie underneath. and Dog gamit i ended up right at the beginning. lol

And in all three original kata everything is done from Sanchin Dachi?

Both Hands open and forward and parallel? Body is forward Square to the Target, and no side stances that create a big change of lead hand rear hand.

It makes me wonder why Kanbum trained for 13 years in China to bring back the most paired down art, that I have ever seen.

Is there really 13 years worth of material in those three forms. . . or is there a lot of body conditioning iron shirt stuff that is being passed off as Hojo Undo?

 

[TSDTexan]

So instead of specifying a measured height (for higher kicks, like "your head") have a little flexibility to be able to say "high for you".

If the sternum is high for you, do it there.

If you've already got hip or knee issues, then waist might be "high for you", so do it there.

If I'm still (a) alive and (b) capable at 94, I'll still be going high for me

Don't oppress my range, man

No... 6'4" I can stretch my leg and touch the top of any doorjamb I find.
I don't have any knee or hip issues, but I alnost always have been careful with kicking. When your weight ranges from 238 to 250... a little dab will do ya.

(my secret, I do a bit of yoga streatches on the side, so I can play rubberguard.)

I just want the future practitioners to have a bar that is readily achievable all the days of their life in my hypothetical kata.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So instead of specifying a measured height (for higher kicks, like "your head") have a little flexibility to be able to say "high for you".

If the sternum is high for you, do it there.

If you've already got hip or knee issues, then waist might be "high for you", so do it there.

If I'm still (a) alive and (b) capable at 94, I'll still be going high for me

Don't oppress my range, man

I teach high kicks (above own sternum), but don't require them...unless the person is physically capable of them. Then, they are entirely mandatory.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And in all three original kata everything is done from Sanchin Dachi?

Both Hands open and forward and parallel? Body is forward Square to the Target, and no side stances that create a big change of lead hand rear hand.

It makes me wonder why Kanbum trained for 13 years in China to bring back the most paired down art, that I have ever seen.

Is there really 13 years worth of material in those three forms. . . or is there a lot of body conditioning iron shirt stuff that is being passed off as Hojo Undo?

Perhaps he was just trying to get really good at it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No... 6'4" I can stretch my leg and touch the top of any doorjamb I find.
I don't have any knee or hip issues, but I alnost always have been careful with kicking. When your weight ranges from 238 to 250... a little dab will do ya.

(my secret, I do a bit of yoga streatches on the side, so I can play rubberguard.)

I just want the future practitioners to have a bar that is readily achievable all the days of their life in my hypothetical kata.

Another option is to not be too picky with the kata. Where I indicate a front kick, I'm likely to deliver it at (my) face height. If someone delivers it at (their) crotch height, that's fine, too. I'd probably accept a knee-height kick there, so long as it's a good kick.

 

[pdg]

When your weight ranges from 238 to 250... a little dab will do ya.

And when you've been around the 150 mark for the last 15+ years, nothing succeeds like excess

I just want the future practitioners to have a bar that is readily achievable all the days of their life in my hypothetical kata

How is "for you" not readily achievable?

And anyway, a badly executed low kick will do far more damage to the practitioner than a high kick done with proper form.

It's silly stances that get me, turning your knees in and ankles out for instance...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's silly stances that get me, turning your knees in and ankles out for instance...

Hey, don't make fun of my dancing!

 

[TSDTexan]

Another option is to not be too picky with the kata. Where I indicate a front kick, I'm likely to deliver it at (my) face height. If someone delivers it at (their) crotch height, that's fine, too. I'd probably accept a knee-height kick there, so long as it's a good kick.

Good clean technique directed at a specific target.

 

[TSDTexan]

And when you've been around the 150 mark for the last 15+ years, nothing succeeds like excess



How is "for you" not readily achievable?

And anyway, a badly executed low kick will do far more damage to the practitioner than a high kick done with proper form.

It's silly stances that get me, turning your knees in and ankles out for instance...

How much in, how much out?

How far apart are the knees?

How far apart are the ankles?

Are you Squatting deep? Or the Legs Straight instead?

To what degree are the knees bent?

We gotta know.... Right Meow!

Some are insanely silly, others not so much.
But details mean everything.

 

[pdg]

How much in, how much out?

How far apart are the knees?

How far apart are the ankles?

Are you Squatting deep? Or the Legs Straight instead?

To what degree are the knees bent?

We gotta know.... Right Meow!

Some are insanely silly, others not so much.
But details mean everything.

Anything that puts you pigeon toed is somewhere your legs aren't built to be, the more bend in your knees (closer knees, further ankles) then the worse it is.

 

[TSDTexan]

Anything that puts you pigeon toed is somewhere your legs aren't built to be, the more bend in your knees (closer knees, further ankles) then the worse it is.

This is a big deal... but I am willing to bet a Slight big toe in outside ankle out Is as safe for nihanchi dachi, as perfectly parallel.

But I am not advocating a pigeon toe.

There is some contraversy about Kiba Dachi/Naifanchin/Tekki and the correct ankle/foot alignment.

 

[pdg]

This is a big deal... but I am willing to bet a Slight big toe in outside ankle out Is as safe for nihanchi dachi, as perfectly parallel.

But I am not advocating a pigeon toe.

Outside of your feet parallel is alright (with bent knees too, as long as they're not caving inward), and slightly in. But only slightly.

Get more toward (or past) a 'goat clamping stance' and trying to apply any force is just asking for trouble.

 

[hoshin1600]

And in all three original kata everything is done from Sanchin Dachi?

no not at all. while sanchin stance is our fighting posture there is a difference between the first form and the second and third.
sanchin in the first form that carries its name is a foundational kata and the form has a fluid dynamic tension within the body that is a constant though out the performance.
below is Kanei Uechi. you will notice his performance is more relaxed and fluid then how Gushi Sensei does it and it looks very relaxed but there is a tension there, this is the goal. to be solid but fluid.

seisan the next form does use sanchin dachi but there are other stances in there.

Sanseiru is more complex and uses many deep stances

Both Hands open and forward and parallel? Body is forward Square to the Target, and no side stances that create a big change of lead hand rear hand.

correct. this is a philosophical rule for fighting, always face square to the opponent ,, so no side stances.

It makes me wonder why Kanbum trained for 13 years in China to bring back the most paired down art, that I have ever seen.

there is complex answer for this.

• during kanbuns time in China he was granted teaching rank and taught for many years so it wasnt like it took him 13 years to just learn it. he was teaching as well.
• this was during the time frame of the boxer rebellion and martial arts were more geared toward actual fighting. the later wushu was not invented yet and older more time consuming curriculums were not in fashion due to the focus on actual fighting.
• Kanbun also learned weapons and chinese medicine but these were not passed down.
• there was a great deal of focus on the iron shirt/ iron palm stuff.
• there is a lot of stand up grappling / chin na in the system and in the forms that have been watered down and not apparent in the performance of the kata. when the style came to Okinawa in 1948 sport karate was all the rage so the stand up boxing/ shotokan karate stuff has been emphasised.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How much in, how much out?

How far apart are the knees?

How far apart are the ankles?

Are you Squatting deep? Or the Legs Straight instead?

To what degree are the knees bent?

We gotta know.... Right Meow!

Some are insanely silly, others not so much.
But details mean everything.

See, I'm not even that picky about exact stances, except when I am. If I have a student who is not aware of their feet, I'll give them exact stances (and be picky about them). Absent such an issue, I don't actually care which stance they use, so long as it makes sense in that transition.

 

[TSDTexan]

no not at all. while sanchin stance is our fighting posture there is a difference between the first form and the second and third.
sanchin in the first form that carries its name is a foundational kata and the form has a fluid dynamic tension within the body that is a constant though out the performance.
below is Kanei Uechi. you will notice his performance is more relaxed and fluid then how Gushi Sensei does it and it looks very relaxed but there is a tension there, this is the goal. to be solid but fluid.

seisan the next form does use sanchin dachi but there are other stances in there.

Sanseiru is more complex and uses many deep stances

correct. this is a philosophical rule for fighting, always face square to the opponent ,, so no side stances.


there is complex answer for this.

• during kanbuns time in China he was granted teaching rank and taught for many years so it wasnt like it took him 13 years to just learn it. he was teaching as well.
• this was during the time frame of the boxer rebellion and martial arts were more geared toward actual fighting. the later wushu was not invented yet and older more time consuming curriculums were not in fashion due to the focus on actual fighting.
• Kanbun also learned weapons and chinese medicine but these were not passed down.
• there was a great deal of focus on the iron shirt/ iron palm stuff.
• there is a lot of stand up grappling / chin na in the system and in the forms that have been watered down and not apparent in the performance of the kata. when the style came to Okinawa in 1948 sport karate was all the rage so the stand up boxing/ shotokan karate stuff has been emphasised.

I have seen these videos many many times, they are master craftsmanship stained glass in motion. although this is the first time I have heard French in the third one.

Question. I the third video.
what's the bunkai or reason for the in place jump stomp into zenkutsu dachi?

 

[hoshin1600]

I have seen these videos many many times, they are master craftsmanship stained glass in motion.

yeah i figured you had but i wanted to post them for others to see what the heck we were gabbering on about.

 

[hoshin1600]

See, I'm not even that picky about exact stances, except when I am. If I have a student who is not aware of their feet, I'll give them exact stances (and be picky about them). Absent such an issue, I don't actually care which stance they use, so long as it makes sense in that transition.

Aikido is like that. its a philosophical problem for me because Aiki and Uechi are at opposite sides of the spectrum. i cant rectify the differences into one symbiotic unit. in creating my own system i have to keep them separate tactically while joining them under one umbrella of philosophical paradigm.

 

[TSDTexan]

yeah i figured you had but i wanted to post them for others to see what the heck we were gabbering on about.

I think my new favorite for Seisen is this one. found this about a week ago.

They do bunkai drills, while another does the kata sequence.

 

[drop bear]

Another option is to not be too picky with the kata. Where I indicate a front kick, I'm likely to deliver it at (my) face height. If someone delivers it at (their) crotch height, that's fine, too. I'd probably accept a knee-height kick there, so long as it's a good kick.

Would you change the kata? An oblique kick to the knee isn't a teep to the face.

 

[drop bear]

And when you've been around the 150 mark for the last 15+ years, nothing succeeds like excess



How is "for you" not readily achievable?

And anyway, a badly executed low kick will do far more damage to the practitioner than a high kick done with proper form.

It's silly stances that get me, turning your knees in and ankles out for instance...

It depends. I look at kata as the fighting version of animal walks.