TSDTexan
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The problem with "traditional" martial arts part 3
- Thread starter KPM
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The guy in both clips is much better looking than Hwang Jang Lee.
Or, just have a friendly fight to find out what you can learn from it. Then nobody has to come up with $5,000.
Anarax
Master Black Belt
Oh, that makes more sense now, I have a pair of pushknives with a nice holster myself. Have you ever noticed only the bad guys use pushknives in movies and TV shows?
TSDTexan
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yep... Hollywood does the brainwashing.
Flying Crane
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How do I know you aren’t a bad guy?
drop bear
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Or have a friendly fight with anybody. It is not likely your first fight has to be the UFC.
drop bear
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Find out if he has a goatee
TSDTexan
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I don't.
But a wise man once said "by their fruits you will know them".
Fruits of a Hollywood Bad guy.
Murder, bank robbery, terrorizing little kids, getting their butts swooped by the good guy, etc.
Definitely not my MO.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
But a real Bad Guy would surely deny his badness! He would never admit to it, or his cover is blown!
TSDTexan
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Damnit, now I gotta eliminate witnesses, this is the part of the job I hate the most.
That... or kill everyone else in the criminal organization.
Or retire... and get disturbed outta retirement like John Wick.
drop bear
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TSDTexan
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right!
Obsidian Fury
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This looks like a fun discussion.
In my opinion the problem isn’t within the Art itself but within the practitioners, students and teachers alike. Fighting is natural for all living beings in fact in every human population be it ancient or current there are always two common forms of entertaining, wrestling and a game involving a ball, Martial Arts were design to make fighting efficient quoting Jigoro Kano “Maximum efficiency with minimum effort”. As an example a horse stance straight punch is more efficient in transferring power than a “wild punch” (just swinging your fist towards a target), for the sake of this example let’s say that both punches are equally powerful. The wild punch in order to generate that amount of power uses more force and velocity, as opposed to the horse stance straight punch the amount of force and velocity are diminished, this punch is more efficient since less resources were utilized. This goes for Martial Arts techniques in general the correct stance, body movement, weight shifting, torque, alignment, etc. help to generate power while utilizing less resources.
As they stand the arts and techniques are sound, they work properly. My master always tells me to “listen” to my opponent and look for techniques, meaning that during practice, sparring, combat, etc. I must observe my opponent and seek or create an opportunity to execute the technique that is appropriate, basically not trying to force a foot sweep when the situations demands a shoulder throw. I’ve found said advice to be very useful, when the required technique is properly applied at the right timing it feels as if your opponent offers little to no resistance. Albeit it is hard to do, I’m currently not skilled enough to always do that, but the times I’ve pulled it off I just get this great feeling it is very special.
You often see practitioners engaging in a very sloppy form of kick boxing, wrestling or poking each other with an object (weapon), whatever that is I’m sure it is not Judo, Karate, Muay Thai, Hung Gar, Kendo, H.E.M.A. or any martial art, at the very least it doesn’t look like it. This goes for anything really, doing the same thing over and over and doing it wrong will not help you do it right.
I believe that the problem is that when teaching and learning, masters and students don’t focus enough in properly executing and applying the available technique. Forms can be very useful to learn executing the techniques properly, however the same aesthetic has to pursuit during sparring and every single aspect of training, competing, fighting, etc. By no means should one take forever to execute a technique, to perform correctly one should do it fast, hard, and beautiful.
Like so:
There are many good teachers and students that seek for techniques and do their martial art. I believe that all of us have to really commit to our practice, we need to make an extra effort to do our martial art properly even when it is hard to do. Sparring is great everybody should spar, when you spar doing a perfect roundhouse is harder than doing so against a punching bag or during a form, but we must persevere and try to do it correctly instead of settling for a sloppy kick, with time doing the technique under stress will be easier but it will take time and a lot of work.
When we don’t do so we may look like the guy in black:
We also need to accept that times have changed in many ways for the better, there have been many breakthroughs in fiscal fitness, diverse sciences, technology, etc. that can help with practicing martial arts we should embrace new positive practices and add to our martial art, we must keep the old practices like kata, iron bone training, 72 shaolin arts, etc. In the same way we must try “new” things like weightlifting, gymnastics, roadwork, medicine for quick recovery, muscle memory exercises, coordination exercises, spacial awareness therapy, polypropylene weapons, new and improved protective gear, sparring if you don’t spar, cross sparring, cross training, hyper-gravity training, etc. Martial arts worked in the past not because they stuck to their first practice but because they where constantly growing and adapting throughout history we can see the evolution of weapons and armor and the martial arts that wield them. A greek soldier from Alexander’s army may have a hard time fighting a knight in full plate armor or a green beret. Martial arts should move forward without abandoning the old practices for they are the essence.
I don’t remember the year or venue but during the Olympics Japan used to be undefeated in Judo until a Dutch Judoka took the gold, the difference was that the Dutch and the Japanese both practiced great Judo but the Dutch guy also did serious fiscal training, he became stronger. With martial arts a physical weaker person can beat a physical stronger one however if the stronger guy also knows good martial arts he may have the upper hand, I believe after the Japan Netherlands match someone said “Now the strong have learned Judo”.
In the same way we are now in 2018 we don’t live during the Bakumatsu in Japan, thus we can’t carry swords on our waist and spears on our hands, we also don’t need to. However we can live like warriors, martial arts really build character, wits, grit, and a quick mind. Today’s confrontation don’t involve swords they mostly involve words however it’s still a confrontation and the efficiency principle holds, our martial arts are part of us and thus should be involved in our daily lives outside the dojo.
In my opinion when training a martial art we should do that martial art correctly even if it’s hard, we should embrace the old practices and include new ones for our benefit, and adapt our martial skills to our everyday lives. The problem doesn’t dwell within the martial arts themselves, the problem dwells within aloof practitioners.
In my opinion the problem isn’t within the Art itself but within the practitioners, students and teachers alike. Fighting is natural for all living beings in fact in every human population be it ancient or current there are always two common forms of entertaining, wrestling and a game involving a ball, Martial Arts were design to make fighting efficient quoting Jigoro Kano “Maximum efficiency with minimum effort”. As an example a horse stance straight punch is more efficient in transferring power than a “wild punch” (just swinging your fist towards a target), for the sake of this example let’s say that both punches are equally powerful. The wild punch in order to generate that amount of power uses more force and velocity, as opposed to the horse stance straight punch the amount of force and velocity are diminished, this punch is more efficient since less resources were utilized. This goes for Martial Arts techniques in general the correct stance, body movement, weight shifting, torque, alignment, etc. help to generate power while utilizing less resources.
As they stand the arts and techniques are sound, they work properly. My master always tells me to “listen” to my opponent and look for techniques, meaning that during practice, sparring, combat, etc. I must observe my opponent and seek or create an opportunity to execute the technique that is appropriate, basically not trying to force a foot sweep when the situations demands a shoulder throw. I’ve found said advice to be very useful, when the required technique is properly applied at the right timing it feels as if your opponent offers little to no resistance. Albeit it is hard to do, I’m currently not skilled enough to always do that, but the times I’ve pulled it off I just get this great feeling it is very special.
You often see practitioners engaging in a very sloppy form of kick boxing, wrestling or poking each other with an object (weapon), whatever that is I’m sure it is not Judo, Karate, Muay Thai, Hung Gar, Kendo, H.E.M.A. or any martial art, at the very least it doesn’t look like it. This goes for anything really, doing the same thing over and over and doing it wrong will not help you do it right.
I believe that the problem is that when teaching and learning, masters and students don’t focus enough in properly executing and applying the available technique. Forms can be very useful to learn executing the techniques properly, however the same aesthetic has to pursuit during sparring and every single aspect of training, competing, fighting, etc. By no means should one take forever to execute a technique, to perform correctly one should do it fast, hard, and beautiful.
Like so:
There are many good teachers and students that seek for techniques and do their martial art. I believe that all of us have to really commit to our practice, we need to make an extra effort to do our martial art properly even when it is hard to do. Sparring is great everybody should spar, when you spar doing a perfect roundhouse is harder than doing so against a punching bag or during a form, but we must persevere and try to do it correctly instead of settling for a sloppy kick, with time doing the technique under stress will be easier but it will take time and a lot of work.
When we don’t do so we may look like the guy in black:
We also need to accept that times have changed in many ways for the better, there have been many breakthroughs in fiscal fitness, diverse sciences, technology, etc. that can help with practicing martial arts we should embrace new positive practices and add to our martial art, we must keep the old practices like kata, iron bone training, 72 shaolin arts, etc. In the same way we must try “new” things like weightlifting, gymnastics, roadwork, medicine for quick recovery, muscle memory exercises, coordination exercises, spacial awareness therapy, polypropylene weapons, new and improved protective gear, sparring if you don’t spar, cross sparring, cross training, hyper-gravity training, etc. Martial arts worked in the past not because they stuck to their first practice but because they where constantly growing and adapting throughout history we can see the evolution of weapons and armor and the martial arts that wield them. A greek soldier from Alexander’s army may have a hard time fighting a knight in full plate armor or a green beret. Martial arts should move forward without abandoning the old practices for they are the essence.
I don’t remember the year or venue but during the Olympics Japan used to be undefeated in Judo until a Dutch Judoka took the gold, the difference was that the Dutch and the Japanese both practiced great Judo but the Dutch guy also did serious fiscal training, he became stronger. With martial arts a physical weaker person can beat a physical stronger one however if the stronger guy also knows good martial arts he may have the upper hand, I believe after the Japan Netherlands match someone said “Now the strong have learned Judo”.
In the same way we are now in 2018 we don’t live during the Bakumatsu in Japan, thus we can’t carry swords on our waist and spears on our hands, we also don’t need to. However we can live like warriors, martial arts really build character, wits, grit, and a quick mind. Today’s confrontation don’t involve swords they mostly involve words however it’s still a confrontation and the efficiency principle holds, our martial arts are part of us and thus should be involved in our daily lives outside the dojo.
In my opinion when training a martial art we should do that martial art correctly even if it’s hard, we should embrace the old practices and include new ones for our benefit, and adapt our martial skills to our everyday lives. The problem doesn’t dwell within the martial arts themselves, the problem dwells within aloof practitioners.
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- Thread Starter
- #155
In my opinion the problem isn’t within the Art itself but within the practitioners, students and teachers alike.
I agree with this statement and much of what you wrote. However, I would also point out that no art exists in a vacuum. A martial art is only what the practitioners of the day express. Its not something you can put on a shelf and say "look at this artifact!" Therefore most of the criticism of traditional martial arts is actually a criticism of how traditional martial artists are practicing and expressing their art. How can it be any other way?
I agree with this statement and much of what you wrote. However, I would also point out that no art exists in a vacuum. A martial art is only what the practitioners of the day express. Its not something you can put on a shelf and say "look at this artifact!" Therefore most of the criticism of traditional martial arts is actually a criticism of how traditional martial artists are practicing and expressing their art. How can it be any other way?
How does government financial policy (or maybe an African songbird) affect MA performance?
Obsidian Fury
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Obsidian Fury
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I agree with you, a martial art is not an artifact it is an art, I would even call it science, and both arts and science have to grow and progress. Jigoro Kano said that anything that resembles Judo is Judo, in the Kodokan book there are a number of techniques that were added to the curriculum after the dead of Kano one example the kani masabi.
Martial artist need to inovate and grow their martial art by devising new applications, techniques, copying techniques from other systems (Ueshiba and Kano did stole from each other), adapting their practice to the current era as if the martial art was an ever growing organism.
Throughout history martial arts adapted to the era they evolved to face a new situation the difference between Egyptian warfare and medieval warfare is huge and it kept progressing there is no need to stop progressing now we can always improve.
Keeping the art vaccum sealed in a world where all sorts of information is available to everyone will blast one to oblivion. Some Martial artists are so concerned with keeping their art intact that it will eventually become extint.
TSDTexan
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Did you mean kani basami?
"crab leg takedown". It was adopted by Judo from karate.... and after it crippled a few Judoka in competition... be became banned in competition.
While I am not a huge fan of sacrifice throws, kicks or other things that leave me on the ground with my opponent (I would rather, just put him on the ground, and keep on my feet), I will say when applied in the correct moment... it is hard to defend against.
Dr. Kano embraced a lot of the same thoughts that Bruce Lee would preach. Philosophically... Judo as Kano envisioned would be metaphorically a type of JKD's prototype. I am not talking about the punching and kicking... but the maximum results from minimal efforts... and other aspects of the paradigm.
It's not stealing.... it's flattery. I like what you did there so much that I will help preserve that. There was some exchanges of knowledge that Gitchen Funakoshi imparted to Dr. Kano. GF after watching many judo throws, took a turn and demonstrated one that Dr. Kano had never seen before.
Dr. Kano was a bit surprised. GF replied "Oh, well there are throws in karate." It wasn't kani basami btw.
G. Funakoshi taught openly about 12 throws, but as the Shotokan style developed later on the throws were not taught anymore. (for the most part) as Shotokan continued to re engineer the kata, and the basics in them, a lot of techniques were scrapped.
This is a sad thing.
Shotokan Karate is the world's most popular in terms of practicing members.... but it is also the most pugilistic, and least grappling, grabbing, and throwing of the brands of karate.
Swarming a Shotokan stylist is an easy way to stifle and sweat them into realizing that fighting at maximum distance alone is a problem.
G. Funakoshi wasn't good at trapping, and defending close quarters. Which is part of why Choki Motobu was able to throw him 3 times. with a wrist throw.... in front of GFs students.
It could be argued... that Shotokan inherited this from GF.
“When I first came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan [Funakoshi] who was teaching Karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn’t even heard of his name! Upon guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up a position of kake-kumite and said, ‘what will you do?'”
...
“He [Funakoshi] was hesitant and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him with kote-gaeshi (a wrist throw also common to jujutsu and aikido) at which time he fell to the ground with a large thud. He got up, his face red and said ‘once more.’ And again I threw him with kote-gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time.”
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TSDTexan
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but... I am talking about the kicking.. not the man.The guy in both clips is much better looking than Hwang Jang Lee.
if you want to get into how men look at each other as better looking.... it can get weird.
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