The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[Alan Smithee]

The first part of this post shows a complete lack of understanding of the aiki principles (which exist in other arts, by different names). The second part either displays a lack of range, or a lack of understanding of some additional principles. It may be that those principles were not taught wherever you spent your 4 years.

By the way, 4 years is a short time in most Aikido curricula. By that point in may schools, you'd have gotten the basics, and not much more. The typical Aikido approach isn't designed to get to application quickly.

Again, why are you in a minority believing in Aikido if it truly works? Do you have a conspiracy theory for it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That makes no sense physically, and it did not work for me or anyone else. But I'm sure you had full live resistance in a traditional martial arts class so I take your word for it

That you don't understand it, doesn't mean it makes no sense. That you don't understand it does explain why you can't "make it work".

 

[Alan Smithee]

I have.

There is no way that's a full account of what happened and the person was sober/fully functioning./equal strength. I could resist without even being close to excerting myself, against the instructor, and my partner

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Using their entire bodies in a different setting. Not trying to flick someones wrist with your arm.

"flick someones wrist with your arm" is not a part of Aikido. There's body movement and structure involved. Every time.

 

[Alan Smithee]

"flick someones wrist with your arm" is not a part of Aikido. There's body movement and structure involved. Every time.

No it isn't. They advocate redirecting energy, as if the person attacking me is a mindless automaton.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists.

Most people don't train the strength needed to apply Wrist locks. Most people who try to do it have weak hands. If you aren't doing training like this then you aren't building up the required strength to apply it to a resisting opponent.

If you aren't doing strengthen exercises for applying joint locks then your only real option is to apply the lock when the person is not ready or expecting it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have lost the point of the thread. Are we now talking about a school that never spars?
Yes, that would reduce the practical effectiveness. However, a lot of sparring in some schools is specific to tournament rules and does not 100% transfer. But the factors of interaction, adversity, and simply not knowing what the other person is going to do would apply.
I have never practiced or even been to an Aikido dojo. Is not sparring typical?

Not in most of the Aikido schools I've visited. It leads to a lot of Aikidoka who don't actually understand what the opportunities for technique really look like, since they've only seen them as a pre-determined set of inputs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How is that even possible? You never apply techniques with resistance from your partner. It's all choreographed.

In your experience. That's a very limited sampling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you're misreading me. The very fact that the principles of Aikido does NOT work against live resistance, you will have to brute force them and they might work then if you are substantially stronger.

I know a significant number of folks who'd disagree, having used those principles in their work lives (cops and bouncers, among others).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Enlighten me then. Tell me how I get better at joint locks over time with no resistance and full choreography?

First, you have to learn the right principles somewhere along the way. Then I'd suggest including some full resistance. As for "choreography" some of that exists in every training style - it's usually called "drills".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What? striking combinations are proven to work. Joint locks don't, all else equal. It has zero significance your knowledge of what's about to come as long as you resist, which you will do instinctively.

Tell a boxer you're going to give him a jab. Then jab. You're going to fail a lot.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The principles of side stepping and other things in Aikido are proven to work. So it's not all debunked.

I'm only attacking the joint manipulation part of the art.

Many of your statements suggest you don't understand the manipulation of structure that should go with (actually, precede) the lock.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again, why are you in a minority believing in Aikido if it truly works? Do you have a conspiracy theory for it?

People train the way they were trained, is part of the answer. And lots of folks in Aikido are very focused on the aiki aspects. Sometimes (perhaps most often - I can't be sure) to the exclusion of looking at the less-aiki principles and applications. Restricting the available range of options reduces Aikido to a much less useful approach.

I love playing with the aiki principles. I don't think they are dependable on their own - you need the full range.

To clarify my relationship to Aikido, I'm in the family of Aikido arts (as defined by the DNBK), not in the art created by Ueshiba (Nihon Goshin Aikido would be a cousin to that art).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is no way that's a full account of what happened and the person was sober/fully functioning./equal strength. I could resist without even being close to excerting myself, against the instructor, and my partner

Because they were trying to do something specific. Aikido doesn't work that way. It just doesn't. And they were probably also limiting themselves (either by habit, on purpose, or because of their training) to the "aiki" options.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No it isn't. They advocate redirecting energy, as if the person attacking me is a mindless automaton.

Yep. That's a complete misunderstanding of redirection. Your 4 years have been mis-spent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most people don't train the strength needed to apply Wrist locks. Most people who try to do it have weak hands. If you aren't doing training like this then you aren't building up the required strength to apply it to a resisting opponent.

If you aren't doing strengthen exercises for applying joint locks then your only real option is to apply the lock when the person is not ready or expecting it.

I don't think specific strength training is necessary if you do enough resistive grappling. I've never done much grip training, but have a stronger than average grip, because of my grappling.

 

[Alan Smithee]

In your experience. That's a very limited sampling.

No... I have seen all gradings. Been to dojos etc. This is how they train. With the possible exception of Tomiki Aikido which is very small style globally.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Yep. That's a complete misunderstanding of redirection. Your 4 years have been mis-spent.

How's that minority view feeling?

 

[Alan Smithee]

Because they were trying to do something specific. Aikido doesn't work that way. It just doesn't. And they were probably also limiting themselves (either by habit, on purpose, or because of their training) to the "aiki" options.

Yes it does. There are plenty of -- "grab my wrist my bro" training in Aikido. And the problem with the rest that they are all choreographed runs and tumbles.

 

[Flying Crane]

What? striking combinations are proven to work. Joint locks don't, all else equal. It has zero significance your knowledge of what's about to come as long as you resist, which you will do instinctively.

If you are looking for a system to study, I want to recommend aikido for you. It sounds like it would be a perfect match for your personality type and your description of what you want in your training.