The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[Alan Smithee]

I will say about Aikido that If we all had robot arms and these things were actually applicable to half decent resisting opponents, then I would rate it highly among the joint lock arts.

I think Oeshiba or whoever it was that systematized it did a good job. It's fairly coherent from white belt to 4th Dan, and the fall techniques look cool.

In other traditional martial arts, there's usually some kata that look downright stupid and out of place but Aikido does a better job in that regard.

 

[dvcochran]

Yeah but even the hard stiles of Aikido are choreographed so it doesn't really matter.

I'm very critical how this is anything but artificial martial arts if you never do full contact/live resistance sparring.

I'm pretty sure there's a good reason for why there isn't sparring, and that's because they wouldn't have been able to apply the moves.

I have lost the point of the thread. Are we now talking about a school that never spars?
Yes, that would reduce the practical effectiveness. However, a lot of sparring in some schools is specific to tournament rules and does not 100% transfer. But the factors of interaction, adversity, and simply not knowing what the other person is going to do would apply.
I have never practiced or even been to an Aikido dojo. Is not sparring typical?

 

[dvcochran]

I think I know what you are talking about or may be not.
I had studied striking arts for 6 years before taking Aikido and I thought I or no one could use Aikido against a striking art.
While students could not do anything against a striking art. My teachers with 30 years of practice every day since they were 10 years old could.
Masters of Aikido can slip your punches and kicks and use your body movement against you and when they put a wrist lock on you and spin you to the ground you learn real respect for their art. I think it takes many years for Aikido to be effective , but it can be very effective.
After a year of hard work I still felt I could not use Aikido alone against a striking art.
4 years seems like a long time, but it may take many more years for it to be effective for you.

@Alan Smithee , @Bruce7 makes a very good point. Apparently it takes a long time to become truly proficient in Aikido. Factors like mean practice time and quality of training/practice are huge factors. Maybe you just have not had enough time for things to gel?

Like most threads, the replies are all over the map. To help the thread get back on track, what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

 

[Alan Smithee]

@Alan Smithee , @Bruce7 makes a very good point. Apparently it takes a long time to become truly proficient in Aikido. Factors like mean practice time and quality of training/practice are huge factors. Maybe you just have not had enough time for things to gel?

Like most threads, the replies are all over the map. To help the thread get back on track, what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

Read the OP.

 

[Alan Smithee]

@Alan Smithee , @Bruce7 makes a very good point. Apparently it takes a long time to become truly proficient in Aikido.

How is that even possible? You never apply techniques with resistance from your partner. It's all choreographed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.

So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.

With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.

Once the technique is in place, taking the fall is self-protection - like tapping out. Like any technique, if it is resisted (the right way) it will fail. The problem with how most folks look at most Aikido techniques is that they are actually techniques of opportunity. You use them when they are available (for some of them, IMO, that's quite seldom). You can't force them, not even the last section of the technique (like you can with the last part of a ground arm bar, for instance) - they simply don't work that way.

Some of the techniques go from the attempt to full lock with too much momentum to risk waiting to see if they are going to work. This means having to start the ukemi (fall or whatever) before the pain shows up. This often fosters folks just taking the fall without ever making sure the technique was actually going to work. There are ways to deal with this in training, but I don't see enough attention to it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I did not write anywhere that Aikido works without cooperation between individuals of similar strength.

A police officer vs a junkie, it obviously work. Junkies aren't exactly known for their athletic prowess and keeping in shape.

A super heavyweight vs a middleweight, might work on them too. Again, if the discrepancy is large it has a chance of working. But then again, everything does.

The second example seems to imply a lack of understanding of the way aiki techniques work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Even trying distracting tactics, it usually doesn't work. My assistant instructor did all kinds of crazy things trying to get the joint lock in.

I'm surprised it ever caught on.. Like you mention, Karate and TKD do have these things as well in smaller portion of the curriculum labelled "Self defence".

The problem is :trying to get the joint lock in". That's not how the aiki approach works. If someone is resisting one technique, they're probably opening up for something else. Strikes are an obvious alternative (which are not covered nearly enough in most Aikido schools).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is not a defect of all martial arts. A person of the same build in many other martial arts can reasonably apply a successful technique to someone of the same build.

Tell a Judoka what throw you're going to do. Then do it. It won't work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Funny since that is not how it's practiced. The defender never punches or kicks in Aikido, only the attacker. They don't even strike theoretically as the defender in Aikido.

True in most dojos, unfortunately. Oddly, Ueshiba is quoted as having said something like "Aikido is 70% atemi".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It does not matter if you grab a hold of my wrist (which is an unlikely scenario in and of itself but leaving that aside) and I don't know which type of joint lock technique coming. It has no bearing on the success rate of it. You cannot move my arm unless you are: a) stronger than me or b) I don't resist.

You forgot c): you're resisting in the wrong direction (so your resistance isn't to the technique being used). That's how Aikido works, when it works.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And yes there are old pictures of O sensei punching as the defender but it was not passed on in their actual curriculum.

I have theories about the progression of the curriculum. I'm not sure how accurate my theories are (I'm not in Ueshiba's Aikido, so it's more a matter of intellectual curiosity for me), but they explain a lot about the absence of striking in a lot of Aikido curricula.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You wrote if you have room I won't be able to strike you, to which I reply: you do not always have room to just run away.

If you someone grabs your clothing who is just as strong as you, you will not likely be able to joint lock him. Shoulder throw maybe, but even there Aikido has one version and no back-ups, whereas Judo has a plethora of variations to the throws. So you are still walking a fine line.

I don't think you really understand joint locks.

 

[Alan Smithee]

The second example seems to imply a lack of understanding of the way aiki techniques work.

I think you're misreading me. The very fact that the principles of Aikido does NOT work against live resistance, you will have to brute force them and they might work then if you are substantially stronger.

 

[Alan Smithee]

I don't think you really understand joint locks.

Enlighten me then. Tell me how I get better at joint locks over time with no resistance and full choreography?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have found that “he can’t, it can’t, highly unlikely, and it doesn’t work that way “ is often followed by “except for, in that case and but, that’s different.”

Of course I might have felt otherwise four years into things. Heck, I haven’t had to control a violent offender in a couple of months now. Maybe things have changed.

There was an upgrade to kinesiology a couple of weeks ago. It was big download, but it did change a lot of joints. Check your updates folder.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Tell a Judoka what throw you're going to do. Then do it. It won't work.

What? striking combinations are proven to work. Joint locks don't, all else equal. It has zero significance your knowledge of what's about to come as long as you resist, which you will do instinctively.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

why dont you try it. ask someone who's strong as you or stronger to resist your joint manipulation without telling him about it. Or don't even tell him you want to joint lock, just ask to grapple with full resistance. Whatever you want. See how far you it will take you.

The first part of this post shows a complete lack of understanding of the aiki principles (which exist in other arts, by different names). The second part either displays a lack of range, or a lack of understanding of some additional principles. It may be that those principles were not taught wherever you spent your 4 years.

By the way, 4 years is a short time in most Aikido curricula. By that point in may schools, you'd have gotten the basics, and not much more. The typical Aikido approach isn't designed to get to application quickly.

 

[Alan Smithee]

The principles of side stepping and other things in Aikido are proven to work. So it's not all debunked.

I'm only attacking the joint manipulation part of the art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you tried it against a full resisting, equally strong/big opponent?

I have.