So far, this is a fruitful discussion, so let us continue to discuss:
for your point # 1. I do not agree, the important factor you have omitted here is speed. When beginning in the art, each technique should be completed at a very slow rate that sinuous tension can be felt before it is moved upon by both uke and tori. Again, nothing should be forced, yet nobody moves unless their physiology makes them move. To do otherwise is to learn nothing, neither as uke nor tori. When practitioners become more adept, those reflexes become the more efficient and necessarily quicker thus the technique is completed at a rate more akin to real life. The situation you describe is more likely to occur if partners are either a. mismatched in their level of proficiency or b. forcing the technique as described above.. in either case yes, granted damage may very well be sustained so I agree with you on that part.
I may misunderstand your meaning by "nothing should be forced", if Uke has to be moved, is he not forced to move?
Except from that, our experiences here with beginners may defer (must admit, many years have passed since I start, so I rely more on seeing others):
- At least here, too often beginners try to force techniques, using force or speed instead of correct movement.
- I have seen more then one beginner tapping continuously while hanging in an impossible position, yet, unable to sense where should he move to reduce the pressure on him, I have even seen some move in the wrong direction and almost dislocating something.
- In Judo, only locks that create significant pain before damage are allowed. Many Aikido locks are disallowed because they do not belong in this category.
- From my own experience and that of the other veterans here, some locks cause minor yet cumulative damage if one waits for them to really hurt.
- I still remember several cases of practicing with some beginner who insisted they can withstand the technique. In the end, I did something similar to your suggestion and each of them did not show up a few lessons/weeks later because they were hurt and in pain.
for your point #2 I do not quite follow this logic forgive me.. I am referring specifically to practice of singular technique wherein it is important that neither partner [and that includes tori] move until they ARE moved. However if you are referring to randori type practice then yes standing static would be foolish, that is a given yes.
About Tori:
To my understanding of Aikido, to stay in place would be wrong for Tori. In almost all cases of Uke actions, Tori should move, to create Kuzushi, to prevent Uke from following a grab with a strike or striking again
About Uke:
One learns Aikido while he is Uke too (otherwise 50% of our training time would have been wasted). I will continue about this below.
If the Uke learns to stay static in a disadvantageous situation, he will act the same way in real situations.
For example, in basic variations of Shiho-Nage and irimi-nage, Tori unbalnces Uke downwards, I expect Uke to resist this and try to restablize himself, and not to stay static with his head down, waiting for Tori to knee his face and elbow his head.
Uke should be active, in a realistic manner aimed to maintain his attack and well being. Even if only one attack is practiced, Uke reaction to Tori should be realistic and reflect his desire to be in position for a second attack.
[I would not use your word soft, rather, receptive or even absorbing] ...
Soft is the common best translation of the Japanese concept. It does not mean weak, it means a combination of sensitive, feeling, responsive, etc.
Soft is the counter of stiff.
One memorable memory of mine is practicing with a Japanese Katori Shinto Ryu teacher and doing Randori with him (in a Korindo settings). He was very soft, but you could feel his muscles continuously working and flowing, just like a tiger.
I dislike the term absorb, since to me it connects to getting hit and absorbing it, while my training teaches not to get hit.
for your point #4 well I think it depends here on what kind of training one does in one's Aikido and which kind of benefit is sought. Yes, for uke to be for uke to be this way is best for their learning, granted.
I am assuming the aim of learning is martial, otherwise you can do anything. When one is Uke one is also learning. A martial artist who is not soft, who continuously uses force against technique, is doomed to fail. The same is true in any M.A.
If one is looking for effective Aikido, one must be soft. One of the times to learn to be soft, is while being Uke. When you are Uke you are not only giving your partner opportunity to train, you are also learning how to react.
Yet this is not a situation which has a parallel in reality where the opponent will resist you with 100% effort. In which case, if you do not MAKE him move, he will not move, you may end up on your back and lest you are adept at your BJJ too then that is not so good. So if you are practicing pure technique in a dojo void then yes receptive or absorbing uke.. else [and I know not many aikidoka practice real life situations - we were removed for doing this] and but for real life, hard, unreceptive, uncompliant, non-absorbing uke is requisite.
Here we partially disagree, especially when looking at this from the martial prospective:
- I agree with "uncompliant", once one is not talking of beginners still learning their moves or intentionally leading someone to correct some point.
- One (and not beginners) can and should do some isolated practice against 100% force resistance. It is good to develop correct techniques, moving from the center, etc. This type of training should be done in progressive manner, to make Sure Uke is within his limits of responding well.
- In a real life fight, if you get the attacker to 100% resistance against your technique, then great take advantage of his new direction of force to throw him with another technique. That is Tori being soft, feeling Uke and responding to it, not insisting rather flowing.
- I have heard more then one Judo teacher explain that anyone who tries to resist, be hard etc, is the easiest "prey". Same is true in Aikido.
You do know the stories of the Oak tree and the grass, or the how to sense a sword fight as it starts (if you fell him strongly, kill him and get home. if you feel him lightly, be ready for a difficult fight, if you can not feel him give in or make your peace with
)?
So yes and no here.. depends on what you are trying to get from your training [or which role you are acting].
I am talking from the martial approach, as my teachers taught me in Korindo Aikido, which is considered a very practical style (though I doubt how many of those who copied that statement has ever seen any one actually doing Korindo).
Most of the practice time, Tori has to be soft to succeed, and Uke has to be soft, to learn to be better.
I'd like to follow Jenna's example and respond to each point. 1. I agree to a point, but I dobn't think it's really an issue. When first learning the technique is put on slowly to avoid damage, at this point uke shouldn't move until tori moves him. When you get better and the attacks come faster, Tori is moving sooner so uke's attack doesn't stop, so his balance is compromised and he has to move to maintain the impetus of the attack and he walks into the lock.
If this is the intention, I kind of agree, with the exceptions I wrote above.
2. Not moving unless you have to doesn't mean that you stand there and wait until you're hit until you move, it means moving to blend with or avoid an attack. It means moving when it's appropriate to do so, not too late, but not too soon either.
I agree, but that should apply to both Tori and Uke.
3. This is only an issue if you start from a static position, and you don't unbalance uke so he has to move to maintain structural integrity.
Again, mostly agree, just add moving away from disadvantageous situations to the specific case of structural integrity.
4 & 5. I agree with most of this, but I think it works the other way. What happens to uke is a direct response to what tori does. If tori gives uke something to fight against, then uke will resist and the technique will be ineffective. On the other hand, if tori remains soft and uke can't find anything to resist, nothing to fight against, he is sucked into the technique because of his own momentum and to his detriment.
Here you describe the ideal. I am talking of the learning process.
I still remember the very few Randori-s in which I was close to that ideal, in those, too often the first to be felt by the other, immediately found himself so trapped in technique he just simply dropped (We did not need to follow things through with force, I am talking of randori/sparing of two sandans, each knowing the other's techniques work. We learned much more about sensitivity and timing without the resistance). I have also seen what happens if after shuch a randori I happen to work with a beginner until I get back to my senses he can learn nothing since I counter anything he does and throw him away effortlessly, and this may answer Jenna about the martial aspect soft means much faster (moving in response to intent not to end of action), soft means stronger (the whole body generates force).
Hope this is of interest
Amir
