Standing wristlocks

[Kung Fu Wang]

direction change.

Agree! The direction change is very important.

1. You apply downward pressure wrist lock on your opponent as shown in the following clip, your opponent can raise his elbow to release that pressure.
2. You change your downward pressure into horizontal pressure, your opponent can turn his body to release that pressure.
3. You then change your horizontal pressure into a pulling pressure and pull your opponent's arm straight.

This is why the wrist lock will require to train in all 3 different directions (not shown in this clip).

 

[oftheherd1]

Your average run-of-the-mill martial art hobbyist isn't training at anywhere near the level of a soldier in any armed forces.

Are those the guys who told you that size didn't matter?

I was in the US military and I have studied martial arts. Your remark doesn't match what I have observed.

Your second question doesn't merit an answer.

Let's just leave it that we disagree.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Your average run-of-the-mill martial art hobbyist isn't training at anywhere near the level of a soldier in any armed forces.

Your average run of the mill martial art hobbyist is going to spend a lot more time on unarmed fighting/sparring than most soldiers in any armed forces because the soldiers would spend most of their time on weapons training.

 

[Hanzou]

Your average run of the mill martial art hobbyist is going to spend a lot more time on unarmed fighting/sparring than most soldiers in any armed forces because the soldiers would spend most of their time on weapons training.

I was in the US military and I have studied martial arts. Your remark doesn't match what I have observed.

Korean soldiers:

Run of the mill MA instructors:

 

[Gnarlie]

Ironic that you would choose Dojunim Ji Han Jae to represent a run of the mill MA instructor. Just saying.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I train military people regularly. They are wonderfully fit, mentally strong people and adapt quickly in general. The basic hand to hand skill sets they receive are functional depending on their branch. However, in general, they do not spend a lot of time on them instead focusing on other training. Hence why those who want to be better prepared seek outside instruction.

 

[Hanzou]

Ironic that you would choose Dojunim Ji Han Jae to represent a run of the mill MA instructor. Just saying.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Mr. Han Jae looks to be well taken care of.

 

[Gnarlie]

Mr. Han Jae looks to be well taken care of.

That happens when your career has been a defining factor in Korean Military and Security Services martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Joint locks work just fine. The problem is that many people keep trying to use a screwdriver as a hammer.
Joint minipulation work well when used as they were intended within the context they were intended.
It's less about a "sucker punch" and more about appropriate context.

This.

This is something I review constantly with my students. I get questions like, "how do you make this work if the arm pulls back?" My answer: "You don't - that's the wrong situation for this technique, so it's the wrong technique for that situation. That's why we have others."

When you develop the pattern-matching (how our minds work with most information) skill from lots of successful repetitions, you can "spot" an opportunity to use a wrist lock. This is why some folks criticize aiki arts - we have to set up a situation to practice the technique, so we can learn to recognize the right kind of situation when it appears later (in randori, or in self-defense). This is also why when I'm demonstrating defenses for students, I often show techniques that weren't on my plan. I respond to the situation created by the "attacker".

And, yes, sometimes that even means I end up "catching" a punching hand and putting on a lock - or so it seems to the observers. In fact, I don't catch it - I happen to move into a space that forces him to shorten his arm (he bends it because he's trying to re-target and I'm too close, perhaps) and my hand happens to intercept the right part of the arm at that moment. I recognize the opportunity and pivot him into a lock or a throw. It's not the most common of situations, but if someone really commits attacks, it sometimes occurs. If I'm not there, or my hand doesn't happen to hit that timing, I'd be doing another technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, the problem with wrist locks is that the point of breaking the wrist is past the point of some folks' pain compliance threshold. If you have to use one "for real", then you might break the wrist before the bad guy thinks about saying uncle. But I suppose, that's a "him" problem and not a "you" problem.

However, they certainly work in context. In my albeit limited experience, there are some people who are just plain good at wrist locks, just like some people have a wickedly fast jab, and some people have a really good power double. If you're good at wrist locks, awesome. One of the guys in my club is just fantastic at them. I'm not that guy.

This can happen with larger joints, as well. A student I trained alongside (who was a bouncer) had this happen on a shoulder lock. The guy just stood up through it, tearing his own shoulder joint up on the way.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This can happen with larger joints, as well. A student I trained alongside (who was a bouncer) had this happen on a shoulder lock. The guy just stood up through it, tearing his own shoulder joint up on the way.

Happens often enough... especially with drugs being involved. One of the problems I've encountered with out of control patients is that certain drugs (with PCP being the best known example) make pressure points, joint locks, basically any sort of pain compliance technique, absolutely useless. The only non-lethal solution in that situation is unconsciousness. I've choked out a few, but mostly we dog pile them. A dose of vecuronium given IM will still paralyze them. It just doesn't work as fast as IV. Sure, we have to intubate them after, but it works.
Not really an option in most situations, however.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My experience has been that people don't really want to fight the cops even if they are resisting them. Too many consequences.

I have fought cuffs on to people. And I have seen people just allow themselves to be cuffed. So there is a spectrum there.

Good hammerlocks work well if you don't break the arm.

In most cases, when someone is fighting against a cop, they aren't thinking of consequences, at all. Consequences are only dealt with in the prefrontal cortex. Under extreme emotions, the limbic system does a dumb of neurotransmitters that shut down the communication from the PFC and the emotions take over (emotional hijacking is a common term for this). This is the same state someone is in who loses their mind when you say, "calm down." (Because calming down is an executive function, coming from the PFC.)

To put it in perspective, the PFC (and the corresponding executive functions) are the last part of the brain to develop (mid-20's, usually), and are not strong in most teens. That's why so many teens do things that make no sense, given the consequences.

I think in your original comment, you're talking about folks who are being belligerent, but not really fighting back. They make a show of resisting, but it's mostly just a show. The cops I know seem to meet fewer of those than the emotionally hijacked.

 

[drop bear]

In most cases, when someone is fighting against a cop, they aren't thinking of consequences, at all. Consequences are only dealt with in the prefrontal cortex. Under extreme emotions, the limbic system does a dumb of neurotransmitters that shut down the communication from the PFC and the emotions take over (emotional hijacking is a common term for this). This is the same state someone is in who loses their mind when you say, "calm down." (Because calming down is an executive function, coming from the PFC.)

To put it in perspective, the PFC (and the corresponding executive functions) are the last part of the brain to develop (mid-20's, usually), and are not strong in most teens. That's why so many teens do things that make no sense, given the consequences.

I think in your original comment, you're talking about folks who are being belligerent, but not really fighting back. They make a show of resisting, but it's mostly just a show. The cops I know seem to meet fewer of those than the emotionally hijacked.

No. That just dosent seem the case.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I consider them "skilled" because they were of senior rank and in some cases running their own schools. Honestly they had fairly good theory, it was the application that was lacking, and that lack came from a clear history of little to no live sparring practice.

Perhaps here we are again dealing with skill v. rank. Or skill at form v. skill at application. There's another possibility. I've had people ask me how I'd do some a particular technique if they pull the punch back. I always decline to attempt that demonstration, which is doomed to fail, for two reasons:

First, they're asking me to do a specific technique, so they'll know what's coming and are likely to counter or resist (even if only unconsciously).

Second, they're asking me to do the technique in a situation that the technique isn't meant for. If they gave me that attack, I'd do a different response.

Oh, and a third one (I've often seen this one on YoutTube videos): They might "snatch" the punch back. This is usually what is shown when someone demonstrates the difficulty in "catching" a punch (again, not really what happens) - they throw the punch out, but with no striking force, then they pull it back as fast as they can. I call this "stealing a punch".

So which is it? You said earlier that in Hapkido you learned that size "meant nothing when applying or resisting a properly applied technique". Now you're saying that some things may not work on a bigger stronger person?

Not really that different, actually, if you define "properly applied" as including the situation and the attacker's unbalance. Once they are unbalanced and not expecting it, size and strength don't matter much, because they won't be using them in any active fashion. One exception: body builders and the like. I hate trying to lock up their wrists, because the ligaments can be so short, you can't get the joints bound against themselves in any useful manner. Of course, once we get past that "right fit" situation, size matters all over the place, because I can force a lock against a weak arm, but probably not against a stronger one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No. That just dosent seem the case.

What doesn't seem the case? Are you saying people fighting against cops are not ignoring the consequences?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yep. And if the 180 degree paired technique doesn't work, the perpendicular one might. And so on... it might be possible to brute force resist a specific technique, but it is VERY difficult to do so without falling into another one.

This is evident even when people resist during demonstrated techniques. The person demonstrating has 3 choices: give up, muscle through and risk failure or hurting their partner, or change the technique and take advantage of the surprise and direction change.

Yes. I start this training early with my students. It's the foundation of using the principle of "aiki" properly for self-defense. You have to go where the technique is easiest. Often, that means letting them go where they are heading when they resist.

 

[drop bear]

What doesn't seem the case? Are you saying people fighting against cops are not ignoring the consequences?

People don't really fight the cops because they are aware of the consequences.

I don't think your emotional hijacking is as much of a thing as you make it out to be.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People don't really fight the cops because they are aware of the consequences.

I don't think your emotional hijacking is as much of a thing as you make it out to be.

It's a real, physical process. It happens in most fights (actually, is the cause of most fights). It happens in arguments (that sometimes turn into fights). And it happens frequently when someone reacts poorly to a stressful situation, like when being stopped by the cops. Remember that cops often show up AFTER the trouble started, so they walk in on that person after the PFC is already out of the picture.

Understanding this process should be central to anyone's self-defense training - it's one of the things that makes a pissed-off bar attacker different from a fighter in a bout.

 

[drop bear]

It's a real, physical process. It happens in most fights (actually, is the cause of most fights). It happens in arguments (that sometimes turn into fights). And it happens frequently when someone reacts poorly to a stressful situation, like when being stopped by the cops. Remember that cops often show up AFTER the trouble started, so they walk in on that person after the PFC is already out of the picture.

Understanding this process should be central to anyone's self-defense training - it's one of the things that makes a pissed-off bar attacker different from a fighter in a bout.

Sounds a bit made up. It certainly does not happen in most fights.

Someone brain farts. And I slap them. Suddenly they are aware of the consequences. Amazingly their uncontrollable action becomes a controlled one.

Someone wants to kick my head in Because that is acceptable behaviour. Cops turn up. Guy stops because there is greater consequences for kicking a cops head in than a bouncers.

Mabye you have a source for this where it is an actual effect. But the way you state it so far does not sound real.

Right here guy slaps a publican and gets smashed for it. Look at how amazingly controlled he suddenly becomes when he realises he is in a serious situation.

Like magic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sounds a bit made up. It certainly does not happen in most fights.

Someone brain farts. And I slap them. Suddenly they are aware of the consequences. Amazingly their uncontrollable action becomes a controlled one.

Someone wants to kick my head in Because that is acceptable behaviour. Cops turn up. Guy stops because there is greater consequences for kicking a cops head in than a bouncers.

Mabye you have a source for this where it is an actual effect. But the way you state it so far does not sound real.

Right here guy slaps a publican and gets smashed for it. Look at how amazingly controlled he suddenly becomes when he realises he is in a serious situation.

Like magic.

Just because you're unaware of the science of neurotransmitters, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.