The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I wrote "not so much". The police argument has already been addressed.

You cant use "not so much" to dismiss it when just about every school teaches it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

@Alan Smithee you're also arguing to a bunch of people that have used wrist locks/joint locks successfully against fully resisting opponents/in fights, that what we have done cannot be done. With no reason why we should believe you, except that you cannot make it work. I think it's much more likely you just did not learn it correctly.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think it's much more likely you just did not learn it correctly.

Agree! To fully understand the "key point" is important.

I can't apply it to them.

Have you achieved the following?

1. Raise your elbow and drop your wrist - To raise your elbow is important. To drop your arm (both of your elbow and wrist) won't work.
2. Move your body forward until your opponent is on the ground - To move your body forward is important. To stand still, or move back is not good enough. To let your opponent to stand on his feet is not good enough. You have to force him down to the ground.

 

[Alan Smithee]

@Alan Smithee you're also arguing to a bunch of people that have used wrist locks/joint locks successfully against fully resisting opponents/in fights, that what we have done cannot be done. With no reason why we should believe you, except that you cannot make it work. I think it's much more likely you just did not learn it correctly.

Haha. I'm not even gonna bother to ask who they were and their level of equilibirum.

 

[Alan Smithee]

You cant use "not so much" to dismiss it when just about every school teaches it.

That is compatible with every school. It was not a numerical statement.

 

[Alan Smithee]

So, I am wondering what you are trying to accomplish with this thread...

Are we all supposed to quit studying Aikido?

Are we supposed to fix Aikido somehow?

Are you trying to impress folks with your vast and enlightened understanding?

You certainly are not trying to discuss or learn anything here... as you outright reject all but your own opinion.

Of course you can't take someone's wrist in your hand, and flick it over to apply a joint lock. You have to unify your body, so that you are in a good stance, and on balance to maximize the power you can deliver. You need to break the other guys stance, to limit the amount of power he can generate. You need to take him off balance to further limit the amount of power he can generate. You then need to unify your body to apply your force in the correct direction, to maximize the effect of the force you can create.

But, I guess you are beyond all this, what with 4 years of training... and that is 4 years straight.

The thread was meant to the discuss the myth that you have to submit once an Aikidoka has a hold of your joint or else you get injured. It's a complete and utter myth. It is not hard to resist.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That is compatible with every school. It was not a numerical statement.

Not so much and every are almost opposites. Especially when youre argumebt was that its not common.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Haha. I'm not even gonna bother to ask who they were and their level of equilibirum.

So now it's gone from "will not work on resisting people" to "will work if they trip or something" to "doesn't matter if they're resisting if they're not someone important/you messed with their balance first" (which as an aside messing with a persons balance is done in any throw or joint lock. If you did not learn that, again, you did not learn them correctly).

 

[drop bear]

The thread was meant to the discuss the myth that you have to submit once an Aikidoka has a hold of your joint or else you get injured. It's a complete and utter myth. It is not hard to resist.

It is because Aikido has very little practical ability to apply wrist control.

This is a Russian wrist snap from wrestling. And it will put you over without having to break your wrist in the process.

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6164275-behind-the-dirt-russian-wrist-snap

BJJ wrist lock.

Aikido wrist lock.

 

[Alan Smithee]

So now it's gone from "will not work on resisting people" to "will work if they trip or something" to "doesn't matter if they're resisting if they're not someone important/you messed with their balance first" (which as an aside messing with a persons balance is done in any throw or joint lock. If you did not learn that, again, you did not learn them correctly).

No it hasn't gone from anything of the sorts. You guys have not made one accurate recount so far of what I've written.

 

[dvcochran]

Even trying distracting tactics, it usually doesn't work. My assistant instructor did all kinds of crazy things trying to get the joint lock in.

I'm surprised it ever caught on.. Like you mention, Karate and TKD do have these things as well in smaller portion of the curriculum labelled "Self defence".

We have several individual techniques and one/three steps drills it that is what you are asking.
In the vein of titling something as purely "self defense" I think it gets a bad rap as it is often poorly taught and not explained well enough. Drilling has to be very comprehensive to be effective at a high percentage. Then there are all the mental/physical/social ques to learn how to read.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The thread was meant to the discuss the myth that you have to submit once an Aikidoka has a hold of your joint or else you get injured. It's a complete and utter myth. It is not hard to resist.

Sometime your opponent gives up is just to prevent himself from injury. This is not only applied in Aikido. It applies to all throwing arts.

If your opponent flips himself, he will release the pressure with safe landing.

If your opponent doesn't flip, he may have too much pressure on his shoulder joint. This can be dangerous if you don't know your training partner well.

 

[Bruce7]

Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.

So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.

With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.

 

[Bruce7]

I think I know what you are talking about or may be not.
I had studied striking arts for 6 years before taking Aikido and I thought I or no one could use Aikido against a striking art.
While students could not do anything against a striking art. My teachers with 30 years of practice every day since they were 10 years old could.
Masters of Aikido can slip your punches and kicks and use your body movement against you and when they put a wrist lock on you and spin you to the ground you learn real respect for their art. I think it takes many years for Aikido to be effective , but it can be very effective.
After a year of hard work I still felt I could not use Aikido alone against a striking art.
4 years seems like a long time, but it may take many more years for it to be effective for you.

 

[Gweilo]

Ueshiba even said that you should be striking (atemi) before applying any joint lock. How many actually practice this? I'm sure when you wanted to disprove the wrist locks, your partner didn't punch or kick you to loosen you up and take your mind of the joint lock.

@Alan Smithee , that is your answer in a nut shell so to speak, I have not trained in Aikido, I trained in Hapkido, but my current Systema instructor acheived 5th Dan in Aikido, it's a topic we cover weekly in all senario, if an opponents mind is in a specific part of the body, attack the next joint, or another part of the body. The same is true of your mind when countering, I think it was Jobo that said if you know what's coming, it's easier to negate.

 

[Alan Smithee]

@Alan Smithee , that is your answer in a nut shell so to speak, I have not trained in Aikido, I trained in Hapkido, but my current Systema instructor acheived 5th Dan in Aikido, it's a topic we cover weekly in all senario, if an opponents mind is in a specific part of the body, attack the next joint, or another part of the body. The same is true of your mind when countering, I think it was Jobo that said if you know what's coming, it's easier to negate.

Haha. I have now seen all gradings of Aikikai Aikido and there are no strikes. So no, there is no science of countering with a strike. Total ballony.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Sometime your opponent gives up is just to prevent himself from injury. This is not only applied in Aikido. It applies to all throwing arts.

If your opponent flips himself, he will release the pressure with safe landing.

If your opponent doesn't flip, he may have too much pressure on his shoulder joint. This can be dangerous if you don't know your training partner well.

Again, we've tried it. Nothing happens if I don't cooperate with my hand, and nobody can move it in my weight class.

 

[Alan Smithee]

We have several individual techniques and one/three steps drills it that is what you are asking.
In the vein of titling something as purely "self defense" I think it gets a bad rap as it is often poorly taught and not explained well enough. Drilling has to be very comprehensive to be effective at a high percentage. Then there are all the mental/physical/social ques to learn how to read.

Yeah but even the hard stiles of Aikido are choreographed so it doesn't really matter.

I'm very critical how this is anything but artificial martial arts if you never do full contact/live resistance sparring.

I'm pretty sure there's a good reason for why there isn't sparring, and that's because they wouldn't have been able to apply the moves.

 

[Gweilo]

So no, there is no science of countering with a strike. Total ballony

????

 

[Alan Smithee]

????

Yep. They don't train strikes and defender does not strike all the way up to highest DAN. It's true. Check the curriculum.