Standing wristlocks

[Hanzou]

They seem to work OK with not much training on gun toting ice-cream robbers:

As was mentioned earlier, there's a difference between someone pointing a gun at you, and someone throwing multiple punches at you. I have yet to see anyone consistently snatch a punch out of the air and apply a wrist lock.

 

[Hanzou]

Where are you from? Authority figures getting more respect? There is a total lack of respect or there would not be a reason to apply wrist or other locks.

I disagree. In general people are more likely to comply to a law enforcement officer than some random joe on the street. That translates into people respecting the badge. Is that always the case? No. However, as Dropbear stated, most people simply don't want to deal with the repercussions of messing around with a cop, and will typically listen to what they tell them to do.

And how do you cuff someone with out some type of prior restraint?

I was cuffed without a restraint when I was a teenager. A cop told me to turn around and place my hands behind my back. He promptly cuffed me and put me in the back of a cruiser. No prior restraint necessary.

Well, why would that not be so? Is a bouncer, or a cop for that matter, in a sporting contest where injury is unlikely? Or in a Marquis de Queensbury rules street encounter? Should not bouncers especially (but cops as well) not prefer to use only the restraint necessary for compliance?

But it is not necessary to be a big guy to properly apply joint locking techniques. Good skill, yes.

I have no clue what you're talking about here. I was simply stating that its easier for larger guys to apply wrist or joint locks on smaller people. Bouncers tend to be of the larger variety.

"People tend to question?" How much company do you need to make a statement? How about you, do you also question the ability of a skilled Aikido, Hapkido, or Kung Fu MA to apply wrist locks effectively? If so, I would have to guess you haven't met skilled practitioners, or they were being very gentle with you. I know in the Hapkido I learned, size meant nothing when applying or resisting a properly applied technique. If your experience has been otherwise, I would consider that your loss as you haven't really met skilled practitioners who could properly teach you joint locks..

I've met my fair share of "skilled" practitioners who couldn't replicate their demo abilities in a live situation. You're also repeating the same silliness I see from many of those styles which makes me question their grounding in reality. Saying nonsense like "size doesn't matter" doesn't help your case. Size ALWAYS matters. Anyone who says otherwise has simply watched too many Kung Fu movies. Size and strength can very quickly overcome skill, and you have to be a highly skilled small person to overcome a moderately skilled larger person.

 

[oftheherd1]

It's all in the context, not in talent.....a matter of timing really.

I've used "standing wristlocks" against people trying to deploy weapons on several occasions: they want to get that knife out of their pocket or sheath. They want to get that gun out. They want to use that stick.

A successful defense employs their intended motion against them, with some added body positioning,

Otherwise, sure: stronger, cop, bouncer, yada, yadda, yadda....carry on.

Yeah-once the knife is out, shoot them.....or hit 'em with the cane-most of these days, I've got the cane-it'll be in my hand....I'm practicing "hit 'em with the cane and then shoot 'em,"but really hoping that I never get to try it out......

Elder and I disagree on philosophical/religious matters sometimes. However I believe him to be a very skilled martial arts practitioner. More importantly, I believe, as shown by his posts above, that his belief about martial arts used in self defense, is that the primary rule is to survive. I also believe that. I think that is the disconnect that many martial artists suffer under. Use of martial arts with survival in mind requires a different set of rules than the rules that might be used in a dojo for sparring.

If you are going to ensure survival, what may happen to an opponent is only a consideration as it pertains to the opponent losing the ability to continue a fight intended to hurt or kill you. The only care one should have is will a particular technique achieve that goal and allow survival (and hopefully not land you in court).

In the dojo, one should not wish to injure or maim a practice opponent. So the rules are different. This creates a possible problem when using one's martial art in the wild. Can one easily slip from the rules of practice in the dojo, and rules of body or life survival, when an opponent has a real desire to cause injury or death to you?

Elder, if I am too presumptuous and have not stated correctly what you believe, please correct me quickly.

I disagree. In general people are more likely to comply to a law enforcement officer than some random joe on the street. That translates into people respecting the badge. Is that always the case? No. However, as Dropbear stated, most people simply don't want to deal with the repercussions of messing around with a cop, and will typically listen to what they tell them to do.

Perhaps I stated my case too strongly. But in the context of using wrist locks, I thought we were talking about people who do not want to deal calmly or comply with police actions.

I was cuffed without a restraint when I was a teenager. A cop told me to turn around and place my hands behind my back. He promptly cuffed me and put me in the back of a cruiser. No prior restraint necessary.

Thanks for your good citizenship. Unfortunately, not everyone police encounter have your respect for compliance.

I have no clue what you're talking about here. I was simply stating that its easier for larger guys to apply wrist or joint locks on smaller people. Bouncers tend to be of the larger variety.

Well, I guess I may have misunderstood your meaning. I was referring to a set of rules bouncers and police normally have to operate under.

I've met my fair share of "skilled" practitioners who couldn't replicate their demo abilities in a live situation. You're also repeating the same silliness I see from many of those styles which makes me question their grounding in reality. Saying nonsense like "size doesn't matter" doesn't help your case. Size ALWAYS matters. Anyone who says otherwise has simply watched too many Kung Fu movies. Size and strength can very quickly overcome skill, and you have to be a highly skilled small person to overcome a moderately skilled larger person.

Your last paragraph, after expanding your quoted post: I think the lack of ability of the "skilled practitioners" you mention in fact, denies they are skilled practitioners. I don't know what techniques they were teaching, nor if they knew whan those techniques might not be appropriate, nor their actual skill, so I can't comment further. I would say that much as I believe in the Hapkido I was taught, I think some things might have more effectiveness in some situations than in others. I also think that one should not disregard any technique until one has thoroughly thought it out.

I also believe that size matters (not so much), but will be trumped by skill and rule-mindset. For you to say any particular wrist lock may not work against a big strong person may have merit. Especially in the dojo (but possibly even outside the dojo) when the opponent expects it. But I think this goes back to rules and your art's mind set that only your martial art has any validity.

There are so many shared techniques between all present day martial arts that it surprises me people can think that way. But you are apparently operating from the mind set that a grappling art only has some set of wrist locks. I can't speak for other grappling arts, but the Hapkido I studied has joint locks of all body appendages as well as the back and neck.

We were also taught many ways to apply techniques besides grabbing a wrist and twisting it. We also learned pressure points to aid in applying joint locks, causing pain, or even killing. We learned kicks and punches as well as blocks against kicks and punches. We learned many ways to set up a throw or defend against one. If I don't think a joint lock will be the most effective defense, I will do something else, but frankly, at the speed of combat, most will work. At that speed, an opponent really doesn't have much time to apply strength as a counter. At a certain point, strength will not be useful as a counter.

All that said, I have also stated on many occasions, that on any given day, any martial artist may have a bad day, and an opponent may have a very good day. When that happens, the outcome may not go the way either the "attackee" or the "attacker" wishes. That is why martial artists must always practice both their art and their mindset.

I think silliness is on your side of the discussion. If you are so convinced you are right, good for you; be at peace with yourself, as I will be with myself.

 

[oftheherd1]

As was mentioned earlier, there's a difference between someone pointing a gun at you, and someone throwing multiple punches at you. I have yet to see anyone consistently snatch a punch out of the air and apply a wrist lock.

Interesting. Another interesting demonstration of mindset. There is indeed a difference between an opponent who has a weapon and one who does not. But either way, your body and/or life are at stake. Someone who is "throwing multiple punches" will still be vulnerable to grappling done in a way such as to prevent his modifying his attack before you gain control with your grapple. But more importantly, why would I confine myself to trying to apply a wrist lock when I might take out his knee or his eyes, or some other attack on his body?

Apparently you have seen people defend a strike by snatching a punch out of the air, just not consistently. Maybe just more practice required to improve the speed and skill? What did they do after they had completed the snatch?

 

[oftheherd1]

Well,I was suggesting that using standing wristlocks as a sort of "grappling sucker punch" is an appropriate context for that tool - one in which they have been demonstrated to work.

What other context(s) would you suggest are appropriate for using standing wristlocks?

As I understand what you mean, and from my own learning, I cannot argue with what you say. Most people aren't taught to defend against grappling, unless they are in an art that teaches grappling. And certainly one would not wish to slow down to the point the person being grappled can see it coming and defend against it. That isn't done with a sucker punch, it wouldn't be done with a grapple either.

I think you are correct. I can't think of another context.

I have found this thread interesting. People who aren't taught grappling don't spend enough time at it, if any time at all, so unfortunately don't really understand the effectiveness of grappling. Nor should they presume that grappling arts only teach grappling. At least the Hapkido I studied didn't.

 

[Hanzou]

Elder and I disagree on philosophical/religious matters sometimes. However I believe him to be a very skilled martial arts practitioner. More importantly, I believe, as shown by his posts above, that his belief about martial arts used in self defense, is that the primary rule is to survive. I also believe that. I think that is the disconnect that many martial artists suffer under. Use of martial arts with survival in mind requires a different set of rules than the rules that might be used in a dojo for sparring.

If you are going to ensure survival, what may happen to an opponent is only a consideration as it pertains to the opponent losing the ability to continue a fight intended to hurt or kill you. The only care one should have is will a particular technique achieve that goal and allow survival (and hopefully not land you in court).

In the dojo, one should not wish to injure or maim a practice opponent. So the rules are different. This creates a possible problem when using one's martial art in the wild. Can one easily slip from the rules of practice in the dojo, and rules of body or life survival, when an opponent has a real desire to cause injury or death to you?

Elder, if I am too presumptuous and have not stated correctly what you believe, please correct me quickly.



Your last paragraph, after expanding your quoted post: I think the lack of ability of the "skilled practitioners" you mention in fact, denies they are skilled practitioners. I don't know what techniques they were teaching, nor if they knew whan those techniques might not be appropriate, nor their actual skill, so I can't comment further. I would say that much as I believe in the Hapkido I was taught, I think some things might have more effectiveness in some situations than in others. I also think that one should not disregard any technique until one has thoroughly thought it out.

I consider them "skilled" because they were of senior rank and in some cases running their own schools. Honestly they had fairly good theory, it was the application that was lacking, and that lack came from a clear history of little to no live sparring practice.

I also believe that size matters (not so much), but will be trumped by skill and rule-mindset. For you to say any particular wrist lock may not work against a big strong person may have merit. Especially in the dojo (but possibly even outside the dojo) when the opponent expects it. But I think this goes back to rules and your art's mind set that only your martial art has any validity.

There are so many shared techniques between all present day martial arts that it surprises me people can think that way. But you are apparently operating from the mind set that a grappling art only has some set of wrist locks. I can't speak for other grappling arts, but the Hapkido I studied has joint locks of all body appendages as well as the back and neck.

We were also taught many ways to apply techniques besides grabbing a wrist and twisting it. We also learned pressure points to aid in applying joint locks, causing pain, or even killing. We learned kicks and punches as well as blocks against kicks and punches. We learned many ways to set up a throw or defend against one. If I don't think a joint lock will be the most effective defense, I will do something else, but frankly, at the speed of combat, most will work. At that speed, an opponent really doesn't have much time to apply strength as a counter. At a certain point, strength will not be useful as a counter.

So which is it? You said earlier that in Hapkido you learned that size "meant nothing when applying or resisting a properly applied technique". Now you're saying that some things may not work on a bigger stronger person?

Let me just state that your latter statement is far more sensible, and your earlier comment is pure MA fantasy. Thus I'm curious on which side of the fence your viewpoint truly lies.

I would also like to state that I hardly believe that my preferred MA is the only style that is valid. The simply truth is that after you've practiced styles that ground themselves in pure practicality instead of tradition and/or mystical mumbo-jumbo, you tend to have a more skeptical (if not more cynical) mindset.

All that said, I have also stated on many occasions, that on any given day, any martial artist may have a bad day, and an opponent may have a very good day. When that happens, the outcome may not go the way either the "attackee" or the "attacker" wishes. That is why martial artists must always practice both their art and their mindset.

I think silliness is on your side of the discussion. If you are so convinced you are right, good for you; be at peace with yourself, as I will be with myself.

Not so much as one person is right and someone else is wrong, but more along the lines of fantasy versus reality, which is why I brought up certain MAs that tend to do pretty demos, but when performed in a practical manner, looks far less pretty and esoteric.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I consider them "skilled" because they were of senior rank and in some cases running their own schools. Honestly they had fairly good theory, it was the application that was lacking, and that lack came from a clear history of little to no live sparring practice.

The simply truth is that after you've practiced styles that ground themselves in pure practicality instead of tradition and/or mystical mumbo-jumbo, you tend to have a more skeptical (if not more cynical) mindset.

Not so much as one person is right and someone else is wrong, but more along the lines of fantasy versus reality, which is why I brought up certain MAs that tend to do pretty demos, but when performed in a practical manner, looks far less pretty and esoteric.

As usual you are using your limited experience and personal bias and attempting to apply it to other martial arts in general.

 

[Tgace]

I have put people into wrist locks at work, but all of them have been what I term "maybe" people. Not fully resisting, but not following commands either. The trick is to not be so "committed" to making the lock work that you just hang on and start wrestling over it when you should go to plan B.

 

[Tgace]

I wrote this on an Aikido thread:

Aikido and Law Enforcement

IMO the same applies here....

 

[Hanzou]

As usual you are using your limited experience and personal bias and attempting to apply it to other martial arts in general.

So do you believe that size means nothing when it comes to wrist locks? Do you also believe that people treat law enforcement like everyone else? Finally, do you believe that people performing demos or kata end up looking completely different in live fighting situations?

That's all I was saying.....

 

[oftheherd1]

I consider them "skilled" because they were of senior rank and in some cases running their own schools. Honestly they had fairly good theory, it was the application that was lacking, and that lack came from a clear history of little to no live sparring practice.

Well, sparring in Hapkido has to be different than for some other arts, especially striking arts. It is not good to fully apply a damaging (wrist) lock at speed without allowing your opponent to flow into the move. If those you saw haven't been practicing moves at speed but stopping before something gets broken, it may happen that they won't be able to apply the technique properly at speed. Than also has to be a learned skill. Perhaps that was the disconnect for those you mention. I don't know. But normally, senior rank, which I would interpret to be at least 4th dan, more likely 5th dan or above. By that time, there should be no difficulty in properly applying techniques, nor in determining what technique is proper.

So which is it? You said earlier that in Hapkido you learned that size "meant nothing when applying or resisting a properly applied technique". Now you're saying that some things may not work on a bigger stronger person?

OK. Thanks for bringing that up. I said:
"I also believe that size matters (not so much), but will be trumped by skill and rule-mindset. For you to say any particular wrist lock may not work against a big strong person may have merit. Especially in the dojo (but possibly even outside the dojo) when the opponent expects it. But I think this goes back to rules and your art's mind set that only your martial art has any validity."

I can see where that would be confusing. It was a poor negation of size mattering. It was so poorly done that you completely missed the 'not so much' and the 'but will be trumped by skill and rule-mindset.' In Hapkido, we develop muscles to apply techniques. We move in ways most opponents could not expect. In combination, the technique will work. If you saw it otherwise, I am sorry you didn't see someone sufficiently skilled.

Let me just state that your latter statement is far more sensible, and your earlier comment is pure MA fantasy. Thus I'm curious on which side of the fence your viewpoint truly lies.

I hope I cleared up where I stand. As to fantasy ... If you think so that is your business. When you see properly applied grappling done, and it doesn't fit your idea of the world, just ignore it.

I would also like to state that I hardly believe that my preferred MA is the only style that is valid. The simply truth is that after you've practiced styles that ground themselves in pure practicality instead of tradition and/or mystical mumbo-jumbo, you tend to have a more skeptical (if not more cynical) mindset.

Wow, you just aren't giving up on your style being to only really good one; 'mystical mumbo-jumbo' is really not a nice thing to say about an established martial art. For your information, Hapkido is one of the most practical arts you can study. It will probably shock you further to know there are other arts that are very practical, but I will let them speak for themselves if they even care to comment. Your mind seems made up, any facts to the contrary.

Not so much as one person is right and someone else is wrong, but more along the lines of fantasy versus reality, which is why I brought up certain MAs that tend to do pretty demos, but when performed in a practical manner, looks far less pretty and esoteric.

Well, the problem is that you brought my art into your discussion, and I felt I wanted to clear up your misunderstanding. BTW, I met some people from a special military unit the last time I was in Korea. You could not get into that unit unless you had a 3rd dan in a martial art. All else being equal, a 3rd dan in Hapkido would be probably be selected over an equal applicant who was 3rd dan in another MA. Ummm, maybe that unit was a fantasy of my mind? The members of the Korean Police training for hostage/terrorist mitigation before the Olympics in Seoul, were trained in Hapkido. More fantasy I guess?

 

[Hanzou]

Well, the problem is that you brought my art into your discussion, and I felt I wanted to clear up your misunderstanding. BTW, I met some people from a special military unit the last time I was in Korea. You could not get into that unit unless you had a 3rd dan in a martial art. All else being equal, a 3rd dan in Hapkido would be probably be selected over an equal applicant who was 3rd dan in another MA. Ummm, maybe that unit was a fantasy of my mind? The members of the Korean Police training for hostage/terrorist mitigation before the Olympics in Seoul, were trained in Hapkido. More fantasy I guess?

Your average run-of-the-mill martial art hobbyist isn't training at anywhere near the level of a soldier in any armed forces.

Are those the guys who told you that size didn't matter?

 

[WaterGal]

So which is it? You said earlier that in Hapkido you learned that size "meant nothing when applying or resisting a properly applied technique". Now you're saying that some things may not work on a bigger stronger person?

Not the person you were responding to, but.... a skillful joint lock can work regardless of the strength/size of the opponent. However, the stronger the opponent is, the more resistance they'll be able to provide, and the more difficult it will be to successfully get the opponent into position and execute the technique.

 

[Tgace]

Not the person you were responding to, but.... a skillful joint lock can work regardless of the strength/size of the opponent. However, the stronger the opponent is, the more resistance they'll be able to provide, and the more difficult it will be to successfully get the opponent into position and execute the technique.

"Can" and "likely to" are two different things.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

[Hanzou]

Not the person you were responding to, but.... a skillful joint lock can work regardless of the strength/size of the opponent. However, the stronger the opponent is, the more resistance they'll be able to provide, and the more difficult it will be to successfully get the opponent into position and execute the technique.

Nowhere in that quote did I say a joint lock couldn't work. My issue is with the notion that application and resistance mean nothing when it comes to factors like size, body type, age, etc. In other words you applying a wrist lock on an 81 year old with arthritis is the same as applying a wrist lock on a roided up 25 year old.

Nonsense.

Even a cursory level of free sparring in the dojang would expose how absolutely nonsensical that belief is.

 

[drop bear]

Not the person you were responding to, but.... a skillful joint lock can work regardless of the strength/size of the opponent. However, the stronger the opponent is, the more resistance they'll be able to provide, and the more difficult it will be to successfully get the opponent into position and execute the technique.

If the strength is too different a joint lock won't work.

The tend to work on the ground because you are doing joint locks that use the weight of the whole body.

For a standing joint lock you have two hands on one.

But this does not give you more strength than everybody.

 

[Gnarlie]

All posts so far assume a particular defined end technique as the goal. If a strong person resists, a skilled jointlocker changes the technique. Resist one thing, you inadvertently help with another thing. In this aspect, size is irrelevant.

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[Kung Fu Wang]

All posts so far assume a particular defined end technique as the goal. If a strong person resists, a skilled jointlocker changes the technique. Resist one thing, you inadvertently help with another thing. In this aspect, size is irrelevant.

Agree! This is why all locks (or throws) should be "trained in pairs" and both should be applied in reverse directions. The stronger that your opponent is, the more force that you can borrow from him when you have switched into the reverse direction.

For example, when you try to straight your opponent's arm and apply a shoulder lock on him, when he resists, his resistance force can help you to bend his arm and change your shoulder lock into an elbow lock with very little effort.

 

[Gnarlie]

Agree! This is why all locks (or throws) should be "trained in pairs" and both should be applied in reverse directions. The stronger that your opponent is, the more force that you can borrow from him when you have switched into the reverse direction.

For example, when you try to straight your opponent's arm and apply a shoulder lock on him, when he resists, his resistance force can help you to bend his arm and change your shoulder lock into an elbow lock with very little effort.

Yep. And if the 180 degree paired technique doesn't work, the perpendicular one might. And so on... it might be possible to brute force resist a specific technique, but it is VERY difficult to do so without falling into another one.

This is evident even when people resist during demonstrated techniques. The person demonstrating has 3 choices: give up, muscle through and risk failure or hurting their partner, or change the technique and take advantage of the surprise and direction change.

 

[WaterGal]

If the strength is too different a joint lock won't work.

The tend to work on the ground because you are doing joint locks that use the weight of the whole body.

For a standing joint lock you have two hands on one.

But this does not give you more strength than everybody.

If you're relying on your hand/wrist strength to do a standing wrist lock, yeah, you're going to have a really hard time. If you use your body weight and core strength to apply the standing technique, it'll be easier. Still difficult on a strong opponent, but more feasible.