Erroneous Aikido, The Amazing Story of..

[K-man]

I didnt mean ONLY retracting. I mean a quick jab striking me in the jaw and then retracting.

Most jabs are probing. If you have been struck on the jaw, you obviously did not evade or cover and you probably are not in position to counter immediately. If the jab is more probing then you probably will just cover or evade.
However, just because a jab is being retracted, and as such doesn't have great momentum, so what? Where is it written that aikido needs always to redirect energy? If I can enter, I will continue and take out my opponent regardless of his action or lack of action. It is about taking your opponent's centre.

 

[Telfer]

Where is it written that aikido needs always to redirect energy?

Its usually said that Aikido does not require adding energy...and therefore does not require strength training.

So if youre not going to add energy, the attacker's energy must redirected.

The energy required to put him down has to come from somewhere.

 

[morph4me]

Ok, how do you respond to a quick retracting jab?

Why would you respond to a an attack that's moving away from you?

You move when the attack is coming towards you, if you happen to be close to your attacker, you can add the momentum necessary when the punch retracts, if not, you do something else.

 

[jks9199]

Thats a good point about following a retraction, assuming its slow enough to follow.

The real question however is the AMOUNT of kinetic energy it contains and whether it is enough to put the opponent down by redirecting it.

If the whole body is throw at you, then yes there is enough energy to work with. But a standard jab...no.

Y'know... Sometimes the best way to understand what one art or another might be capable of is direct experimentation. With good attitudes, it can be a great learning experience for both sides. Find yourself a skilled aikidoist who has actually worked with their system (maybe Letch can refer you), and see what they can do against a jab.

Even a flicking jab.

Aikido and the arts it derived from have been around for a while. I kind of doubt that it's because they gave warm fuzzies to people...

 

[jks9199]

Ok, how do you respond to a quick retracting jab?

Well... my response is certainly not aikido-like. I'll either step off and counter -- or step in and deliver my counter right down the line... I don't care if it's a committed attack or not; once it's in range, it's my turn.

 

[tempus]

Every situation is different. When we practice against quick jabs it is usually time your way to follow it back in and then do technique. I on the other hand always found tapping the knee or the groin causes the jab to stop and the energy of the person bending forward gives me enough energy to work with. It is very surprising what a tap to ones body can do when. People get distracted easily.

The last fight I saw I was watching the UFC at a local bar with friends. All of a sudden two big guys started going at it. Were they boxing punches, no. They both were throwing large round houses with each arm as fast as they could. Both were connecting on each others face, but none had enought power to finish the fight before the bouncers dragged them out. It surprised me that neither moved nor did either of them block. It was very funny and surprising.

My theory is train for every style and every situation. Will you hit them all, no; But, at least it will get you thinking if ever in a situation. The other day we trained against all types of grips and multiple attackers with the lights off. Changes everything when you cannot see very well. Hence my bruised foot where someones knee landed.

Enough rambling. Time for sleep and then Turkey Day!

-Gary

 

[K-man]

Its usually said that Aikido does not require adding energy...and therefore does not require strength training.

So if youre not going to add energy, the attacker's energy must redirected.

The energy required to put him down has to come from somewhere.

What I actually wrote was "Where is it written that aikido needs always to redirect energy?"
So I agree with you that "it's usually said that Aikido does not require adding energy".
However, I have trained enough to know that Aikido can provide the initial attack and succeed. IMO, there are two reasons. One is that as you enter your opponent reacts, therefore you add to his momentum, or there is a tiny thing called 'ki' that I see demonstrated every time I train. Now we have had numerous discussions as to whether ki exists and I am not interested in beating that drum. Suffice to say, aikido without ki becomes ai-do. Ai-do IMHO is 'Erroneous Aikido' ... isn't that amazing? :asian:

 

[morph4me]

In those cases where it is required that energy be added by the aikidoka to redirect or off balance is about the amount of energy required to keep a beach ball in the air. Since the momentum is coming from the attacker, and the aikidoka flows with the energy, very little is required to keep it going or change it's course.

 

[Telfer]

there is a tiny thing called 'ki' that I see demonstrated every time I train. Now we have had numerous discussions as to whether ki exists and I am not interested in beating that drum. Suffice to say, aikido without ki becomes ai-do.

There are two wild cards in Aikido...one is the development of Ki energy and the other is the development of precognition.

I'm perfectly happy to accept the existence of both, but I believe they are extremely rare.

In a book on the Chinese internal arts Bruce Frantzis talks about going to Japan on his way to China and witnessing some paranormal force in the Aikido of Ueshiba...but he also makes a point of saying this force was nowhere to be found in Ueshiba's inner circle of students.

Ueshiba also made claims to a psychic precognition of any attacker's intention, making it easy for him to adjust his defense accordingly.

Now the only evidence I've seen of this in a living person was at an Aikido demonstration several years ago given by a Japanese master in his early sixties...cant remember his name sorry.

He performed this one stunt where he would stand passively and invite two LARGE members of the audience to try and lift him off the ground, with no apparent resistance on his part. They couldnt do it.

And another trick involving him kneeling at ease and having several people try to push him over from all directions. Again, he wouldn't budge.

This was a very impessive display of postural stability to say the least, almost magical, but the rest of the demonstration was horrible...the usual over commited attacks, arms freezing in mid air, nobody grabbed for his legs, no kicks, etc.

It could be that Aikido isnt very effective without these two wild cards.

I really dont know.

 

[tempus]

To me ki is just the law of physics. When I do a techinique and drop ki, in my mind, I am changing the balance and direction of the energy, or object in motion, to add or reduce pain. I would need that numbers guy from the TV show to watch Aikido in action and draw out the equation.

-Gary

 

[Yari]

I didnt mean ONLY retracting. I mean a quick jab striking me in the jaw and then retracting.

I believe there is no one set way that will fix any situation (like a jab). In all styles (and even them that say there not styles), you work with basics. This is the fundamentals for how you will handle reality when it comes knocking on the door. Therefor you will not find a technique that is 100% correct for handling a jab. But you'll find techniques and scenario based cases that help you handled a jab situation. Of course you work on perfecting your basics, and in those cases you'll be doing 1 or 3 different techniques to handled the jab, when trying it in your scenario based practice. In some schools you'll even be wokring with the situation that the jab connected becuase you didn't see it; and work with the situation from there.

Aikido is more than just the technique; theres' the perception, the de-escalation, and then the technique. All these areas help define how you handle an attacker (in your request - a jab).


/yari

 

[Yari]

There are two wild cards in Aikido...one is the development of Ki energy and the other is the development of precognition.
.......
It could be that Aikido isnt very effective without these two wild cards.

I really dont know.

Well, there is many styles of Aikido, and even more people. You'll find rotten apples anywhere. Just like the people in you friendly neibourhood(sp?).

Ki and precognition, are not mystical for me. They are theories that are created to understand something that can't be explained more easly. If you look at Bateson, he states that if we knew 100% how our eyes worked; the way the signal changes and becomes manipulated before it reaches our eyes, we might not be able to trust our eyes. So we find a simple way of understanding how that works. The same for ki and precognation.

But that said. No matter what you do, I would state that everbody has precognation, it's the degree on how we choose to use it and how we let it influence our lives.

Really depning on how you define "what is Aikido", but I would say that precognintion and ki arn't nessecary for Aikido to be effective, but I know a lot of poeple are blinded by these and think that is the answer to all. But "knowing" ki and precon are going to enhanced your "aikido" (place any style here), becuase they are fundamental for how you handled your life.

/yari

 

[theletch1]

Ki, as Tempus pointed out, is more about bio-mechanics than any odd, mystical force. The exercises that you describe are simple energy redirection drills that we in NGA do on a regular basis. We have 15 drills like that and we call them "ki exercises". Nothing mystical. Nothing magical. It's just training with the same dedication that karate guys, muy thai guys and even MMA guys have.

The precognition element of aikido is another red herring in my opinion. Just as you train to read what your opponents next move will be by watching his shoulders and hips, so does the aikido-ka. When the attacker moves in a certain way to prepare for an attack (even nearly imperceptible movements) the aikido-ka moves (hopefully) in the correct way to intercept the energy of the attack. Once you've engaged the attacker you are feeling for very small movements and shifts in energy to take that persons balance, or throw them or manipulate a limb or joint.

As JKS pointed out, the absolutely best way to figure this all out is to find a quality aikido-ka (not someone committed to the mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff) and cross train with them.

 

[K-man]

Ki, as Tempus pointed out, is more about bio-mechanics than any odd, mystical force. The exercises that you describe are simple energy redirection drills that we in NGA do on a regular basis. We have 15 drills like that and we call them "ki exercises". Nothing mystical. Nothing magical. It's just training with the same dedication that karate guys, muy thai guys and even MMA guys have.

As JKS pointed out, the absolutely best way to figure this all out is to find a quality aikido-ka (not someone committed to the mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff) and cross train with them.

Sorry but I must disagree. 99.99 pc of all aikido I have seen is biomechanics or plain force. 'Ki' is not the same as biomechanics and it is not a 'mystical force'. To label something you have obviously never experienced as 'mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff' demonstrates a lack of understanding of ki. Cross train by all means, but try and cross train with practitioners that do utilise ki. That is the sole reason I train aikido. As for the ki exercises you practise, I would love to see some on video if you have an example. Anybody can perform a ki exercise but whether it helps you to utilise ki is a totally different story. :asian:

BTW. Why do you spend your time practising 'ki' exercises if ki is mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff?

 

[theletch1]

Sorry but I must disagree. 99.99 pc of all aikido I have seen is biomechanics or plain force. 'Ki' is not the same as biomechanics and it is not a 'mystical force'. To label something you have obviously never experienced as 'mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff' demonstrates a lack of understanding of ki. Cross train by all means, but try and cross train with practitioners that do utilise ki. That is the sole reason I train aikido. As for the ki exercises you practise, I would love to see some on video if you have an example. Anybody can perform a ki exercise but whether it helps you to utilise ki is a totally different story. :asian:

BTW. Why do you spend your time practising 'ki' exercises if ki is mystical mumbo-jumbo-kumbayah stuff?

NGA = Nihon Goshin Aikido. Bio-mechanics... utilizing body movement, dropping of the center, dominating your attackers center with your own. My label of "mystical-mumbo-jumbo" refers to those aikido practitioners who've turned our art into little more than a meditation circle. As for cross training... I do and have. I trained h2h in the Corps, kempo for several years and train with a couple of MMA guys on the ground. Relax, take a deep breath. We're on the same side here. I know aikido works, hell, I spend enough of my time teaching it so I better damn well know that it works.

I practice ki exercises because learning to drop your center and redirect energy (using ki) are an integral part of the art that I teach.

 

[Telfer]

Ki is more about bio-mechanics than any odd, mystical force. The exercises that you describe are simple energy redirection drills that we in NGA do on a regular basis. We have 15 drills like that and we call them "ki exercises". Nothing mystical. Nothing magical.

Well we know that the founder's teachings on Aikido are practically marinated in the paranormal...in contrast to Jigoro Kano who believed Judo was nothing more than clever engineering.

Like this guy moving massively heavy concrete blocks around in his backyard using only pebbles and logs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRDzFROMx0&feature=player_embedded

Ueshiba's teaching is different in that he speaks of using a force not known to science...very much like the Qi Gong masters of China:

 

[theletch1]

Well we know that the founder's teachings on Aikido are practically marinated in the paranormal...in contrast to Jigoro Kano who believed Judo was nothing more than clever engineering.

Like this guy moving massively heavy concrete blocks around in his backyard using only pebbles and logs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRDzFROMx0&feature=player_embedded

Ueshiba's teaching is different in that he speaks of using a force not known to science...very much like the Qi Gong masters of China:

Ueshiba's teachings changed a great deal over time. The style of aikido that I study doesn't trace it's lineage back to Ueshiba but to Morida. Regardless of where your lineage goes back to it will eventually lead you back to Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu in one form or another. The idea of using a force not known to science is where O' Sensei wound up after his spiritual journeys. As I said in my last post there are those in the world of aikido that have turned our art into little more than a meditation circle. It's an art that appealed to many of the "hippie" types (and still does depending) because it didn't stress striking and seemed to stress harmony. It was that type of practitioner that began the whole "Erroneous Aikido" concept that Jenna began the thread about. There are few other arts out there, perhaps with the exception of some of the kung fu arts or the ninja arts, that have people studying with such extremely different philosophies of what the art is. If you are interested, Telfer, in finding a spot for aikido in your MMA training then I urge you to find an aikido school that understands the martial side of the art and find a practitioner who's willing to exchange ideas and techniques with you. As I've pointed out, I train with a couple of MMA guys when I get the chance and it's been rewarding for all of us.

 

[Telfer]

If you are interested, Telfer, in finding a spot for aikido in your MMA training then I urge you to find an aikido school that understands the martial side of the art and find a practitioner who's willing to exchange ideas and techniques with you. As I've pointed out, I train with a couple of MMA guys when I get the chance and it's been rewarding for all of us.

Even mentioning the word Aikido on an MMA forum is liable to get me killed. If fact, at least one forum doesnt even allow you to use the word KI unless you are VERY specific about what you mean.

However, one of the most successful MMA competitors Bas Rutten has gone on record giving credit to some Aikido techniques at close range.

He explains here:

I personally would not train with a teacher unless he could do the tricks I saw demonstrated live...like you see in this clip at 3:30

After looking up your Shioda Morida this is about the only thing I could find.

 

[theletch1]

MacEwen Sensei is my instructors instructor. He holds rank in several arts, applies a laser focused self defense mind set to his aikido and is someone that I really wouldn't want to have to defend against him at all. That video was done 20 years ago and he's only gotten better since then. I'm in a rush so can't respond to your post as it deserves but I'll take a moment (probably tomorrow afternoon) to give it the attention it deserves. :asian:

 

[theletch1]

Sorry for the delay. Real life can be a pain.

Bas is a great MMAist and IIRC holds dan ranking in at least two martial arts...that doesn't make him an expert on what an aikido-ka with the proper mind-set in his training is capable of.

The exercises that you reference in the clip at 3:30 are two of the 15 exercises that we practice in NGA and which I'm sure other forms of aikido practice as well. They aren't magical, mystical energy beams. They are simply changing the direction of the flow of the energy that your attackers are giving you in such a way as to make the energy useless to your attacker but useful to you. The be all and end all of this conversation is this... aikido is many things to many people. If you train in aikido with a self defense mind-set you can make it what it was when it was first created... a brutally effective martial art. If you approach it as a hobby or as a sprititual path then that's all you're going to get from it. You're complaints about aikido aren't falling on deaf ears here. Read all of this thread from the beginning and you'll see that most of the aikido-ka on this site are lamenting the fact that the art we loved has, to an extent, been hijacked by folks who've created the image of the art that has you believing that it's nearly useless. Again, find an aikido-ka who approaches there training with an SD mindset and share your knowledge with them and accept there input and you'll have your eyes opened.

Now, having said that allow me to say this... I appreciate the fact that you've gotten your points across here in a polite and professional manner. I look forward to discussing other aspects of the martial arts with you on the site. :asian: