The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[Kung Fu Wang]

That makes no sense physically, and it did not work for me or anyone else. But I'm sure you had full live resistance in a traditional martial arts class so I take your word for it

This is in competition (not demo, not in class). If you know how to borrow your opponent's force, you don't need much of your own force.

Here is the pulling:

Here is the result of pulling.

 

[Alan Smithee]

This is in competition (not demo, not in class). If you know how to borrow your opponent's force, you don't need much of your own force.

Here is the pulling:

Here is the result of pulling.

What is that? Some underground Kung Fu tournament?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm familiar with joint manipulation after 4 years

Apparently not.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Because the persons reaction to you grapping the wrist won't change. You do realize that you are in a minority with your view? Why do you think that is? Why isn't there the same bias against Judo and BJJ? Have you ever pondered that?

I have nothing against Aikido. Certainly not the only unrealistic martial art, but the disconnect from reality is unfortunately even worse than what is usual for TMA

The push pull concept you're stating doesn't work is used in both judo and bjj though.

 

[Alan Smithee]

The push pull concept you're stating doesn't work is used in both judo and bjj though.

Using their entire bodies in a different setting. Not trying to flick someones wrist with your arm.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is that? Some underground Kung Fu tournament?

On the wall, it said "North Texas Shuai Chiao Association". It's the annual match between the Austin, Texas SC (Chinese wrestling) team with the Dallas, Texas SC team.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That makes no sense physically, and it did not work for me or anyone else. But I'm sure you had full live resistance in a traditional martial arts class so I take your word for it

Here is another example to use pull to set up push. It's tournament. It's neither demo nor class training. Is it full live resistance? I'll say yes. Nobody wants to lose in a tournament.

 

[vince1]

Not true, the defender does strike in aikido, at least in Aikikai, as it is taught in the dojo my youngest goes to. And the sensei of the school is a Shihan 7th Dan who has been training for many many years

We strike and kick in the martial art I practice, Aikijuijitsu. Eyes and throat are not off limits. lol

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Using their entire bodies in a different setting. Not trying to flick someones wrist with your arm.

Wrist locks/joint manipulation is seen in judo too, and used pretty effectively by some cop friends of mine. And if you think you are either a: trying to flick a wrist, or b: only using your arm, I'll refer you back to my other comment that you are apparently not familiar with correct joint manipulation.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Wrist locks/joint manipulation is seen in judo too, and used pretty effectively by some cop .

Not so much these days. I'm sure it's kept among its outdated SD portion of Judo, just like Karate and Taekwondo.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.

If you can use

- shaking force, or
- body unification force,

to interrupt your opponent's force generation during the initial state, none of your opponent's technique can apply on you. The simplest example is when you touch your hand on your opponent's right shoulder, his right arm cannot punch out.

MA is a paradox. You are not a good MA person if

1. you can't apply joint lock on your opponent.

2. your opponent can apply joint lock on you.

1 and 2 just contradict to each other.​

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not so much these days. I'm sure it's kept among its outdated SD portion of Judo, just like Karate and Taekwondo.

You need to get out more then. It's been included in every judo/jujutsu school I've been to, except one bjj school (where it's part of their jjj curriculum). And again, used by cops in those schools effectively.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

used by cops in those schools effectively.

It's used in Chinese police force. You can get a lot of good information from this clip.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's used in Chinese police force. You can get a lot of good information from this clip.

Yup, I trained a little bit of this. There is also a real nasty kick that is aimed and the underside of the jaw too. The shifu did not use boxing gloves and pads though, we used trees with no gloves at all. Palm strikes I could do, he never used fists, but I could not bring myself to kick, shin, forearm strike or elbow strike trees. The shifu was from Heilongjiang

 

[Alan Smithee]

You need to get out more then. It's been included in every judo/jujutsu school I've been to, except one bjj school (where it's part of their jjj curriculum). And again, used by cops in those schools effectively.

I wrote "not so much". The police argument has already been addressed.

 

[Alan Smithee]

If you can use

- shaking force, or
- body unification force,

to interrupt your opponent's force generation during the initial state, none of your opponent's technique can apply on you. The simplest example is when you touch your hand on your opponent's right shoulder, his right arm cannot punch out.

MA is a paradox. You are not a good MA person if

1. you can't apply joint lock on your opponent.

2. your opponent can apply joint lock on you.

1 and 2 just contradict to each other.​

Lol no. It has nothing to do with me and my skill, it's physiology. You can take a steroid head from the gym with no martial arts experience and ask him to restrain, it doesn't matter.

 

[Alan Smithee]

MA is a paradox. You are not a good MA person if

1. you can't apply joint lock on your opponent.

2. your opponent can apply joint lock on you.

1 and 2 just contradict to each other.​

I reject both.

 

[jobo]

why dont you try it. ask someone who's strong as you or stronger to resist your joint manipulation without telling him about it. Or don't even tell him you want to joint lock, just ask to grapple with full resistance. Whatever you want. See how far you it will take you.

you want me to prove your point , coz you cant ?

but yes i have used joint locks against people much stronger than me, thats how i know your talking rubbish

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Lol no. It has nothing to do with me and my skill, it's physiology. You can take a steroid head from the gym with no martial arts experience and ask him to restrain, it doesn't matter.

Have you heard about "unbendable arm"?

If you treat your arm as a pipe with water flow from your shoulder to your finger tips, it will be difficult for your opponent to bend your arm. That's called "body unification".

 

[wab25]

Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.

So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.

With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.

So, I am wondering what you are trying to accomplish with this thread...

Are we all supposed to quit studying Aikido?

Are we supposed to fix Aikido somehow?

Are you trying to impress folks with your vast and enlightened understanding?

You certainly are not trying to discuss or learn anything here... as you outright reject all but your own opinion.

Of course you can't take someone's wrist in your hand, and flick it over to apply a joint lock. You have to unify your body, so that you are in a good stance, and on balance to maximize the power you can deliver. You need to break the other guys stance, to limit the amount of power he can generate. You need to take him off balance to further limit the amount of power he can generate. You then need to unify your body to apply your force in the correct direction, to maximize the effect of the force you can create.

But, I guess you are beyond all this, what with 4 years of training... and that is 4 years straight.