The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[Xue Sheng]

Ueshiba even said that you should be striking (atemi) before applying any joint lock. How many actually practice this? I'm sure when you wanted to disprove the wrist locks, your partner didn't punch or kick you to loosen you up and take your mind of the joint lock. I do agree that many train things with only compliance and don't add resistance to their drilling so they don't raise their skill level up to use things. I have trained in dojos that it didn't matter how sloppy the technique was, the other person would just comply like it was an effective technique. I have also trained at places, that even during "cooperative training" if you didn't have everything done correctly, they wouldn't just allow you to apply the technique. You HAD to have your setup, off balancing, timing etc. all correct before you even got to the joint lock portion of things.

My youngest's Aikido dojo trains the strike before certain techniques and if you do not do the move right, they do not simply fall down, they correct your technique. They are not trying to muscle out o things, they are being a good Uke, but they technique has to be correct.

 

[Alan Smithee]

no not if they are a physical match and expecting what ever you are going to do, perhaps you could give a few examples of the techniques you thinking of, that always work ?

It does not matter if you grab a hold of my wrist (which is an unlikely scenario in and of itself but leaving that aside) and I don't know which type of joint lock technique coming. It has no bearing on the success rate of it. You cannot move my arm unless you are: a) stronger than me or b) I don't resist.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Funny since that is not how it's practiced. The defender never punches or kicks in Aikido, only the attacker. They don't even strike theoretically as the defender in Aikido.

Not true, the defender does strike in aikido, at least in Aikikai, as it is taught in the dojo my youngest goes to. And the sensei of the school is a Shihan 7th Dan who has been training for many many years

 

[Alan Smithee]

no not if they are a physical match and expecting what ever you are going to do, perhaps you could give a few examples of the techniques you thinking of, that always work ?

Well I have told a sparring partner that a jab is coming and still tagged him. But it's a mute point since I already addressed that it doesn't matter if I know or not which type of joint lock is coming.

Your body is going to automatically refrain from someone grabbing the wrist. You do not need to tell it to watch out for a joint lock

 

[Alan Smithee]

Not true, the defender does strike in aikido, at least in Aikikai, as it is taught in the dojo my youngest goes to. And the sensei of the school is a Shihan 7th Dan who has been training for many many years

Oh really, would you name strikes defender applies before joint locks? I see Zero strikes in akikai demos.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It does not matter if you grab a hold of my wrist (which is an unlikely scenario in and of itself but leaving that aside) and I don't know which type of joint lock technique coming. It has no bearing on the success rate of it. You cannot move my arm unless you are: a) stronger than me or b) I don't resist.

If you are responding to me you are missing the point. My shifu is not looking to lock you, he is looking for the opportunity to lock you should it present itself. He is not thinking I have this technique and I'm going to apply it, He is simply observing that he cold apply a lock based on what is presented to hiim

 

[jobo]

It does not matter if you grab a hold of my wrist (which is an unlikely scenario in and of itself but leaving that aside) and I don't know which type of joint lock technique coming. It has no bearing on the success rate of it. You cannot move my arm unless you are: a) stronger than me or b) I don't resist.

but you know a joint lock is coming, so can brace against it, just as you know a punch is coming and can block it or a kick and move out of the way.

knowing what your opponent is going to do, is 90% of defeating it, if some random guy grabs my lapel, i can have them in an arm bar before they can tense their muscles to resist, if i tell them in advance i have little chance

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh really, would you name strikes defender applies before joint locks? I see Zero strikes in akikai demos.

Huh? what are you talking about "name strikes defender applies"?

I am not an Aikidoka my youngest is and I watch the class, they show a strike before certain techniques, don't know the name of the techniques, don't want to believe me, don't, it makes no difference to me. I know what I see, I know what they train. If you are not happy at the dojo you are at then find another school.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well I have told a sparring partner that a jab is coming and still tagged him. But it's a mute point since I already addressed that it doesn't matter if I know or not which type of joint lock is coming.

Your body is going to automatically refrain from someone grabbing the wrist. You do not need to tell it to watch out for a joint lock

Then don't grab the wrist, do something else. There is a lot more to Aikido than joint locks.

 

[Martial D]

It is stated in the topic of the thread.



Presumably a lot of aikidokas still do? And it does work, just not on the people they think.

Sure. Small children and the elderly are people too

 

[Alan Smithee]

Huh? what are you talking about "name strikes defender applies"?

I am not an Aikidoka my youngest is and I watch the class, they show a strike before certain techniques, don't know the name of the techniques, don't want to believe me, don't, it makes no difference to me. I know what I see, I know what they train. If you are not happy at the dojo you are at then find another school.

The defender, the one who is actually applying a joint lock, does NOT strike in Akikai Aikido.

 

[Alan Smithee]

but you know a joint lock is coming, so can brace against it, just as you know a punch is coming and can block it or a kick and move out of the way.

It's not the same thing as anticipating a joint lock. You can't compare the two scenarios.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The defender, the one who is actually applying a joint lock, does NOT strike in Akikai Aikido.

Yes, yes they do, sorry, but I have seen it for years in Aikikai Aikido. Like I said, don't believe if that works for you, I am not out to prove anything to you, just stating the facts, that is all.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Yes, yes they do, sorry, but I have seen it for years in Aikikai Aikido. Like I said, don't believe if that works for you, I am not out to prove anything to you, just stating the facts, that is all.

Yet you can't reference a single instance of when they do, what technique is involved, and any Akikai demonstrations that involve the defender striking. By striking I mean punching, karate chopping, kicking etc

 

[Alan Smithee]

And yes there are old pictures of O sensei punching as the defender but it was not passed on in their actual curriculum.

 

[jobo]

Well I have told a sparring partner that a jab is coming and still tagged him. But it's a mute point since I already addressed that it doesn't matter if I know or not which type of joint lock is coming.

Your body is going to automatically refrain from someone grabbing the wrist. You do not need to tell it to watch out for a joint lock

well you need better sparing partners then, we could spend ten minets with you failing to punch me, if i had enough room.

but no, people who dont know better, constantly present their arm for a lock to be applied, they try and grab you, if they succeed in grabbing your clothing then a lock is ready and waiting for you to apply. if they were expecting a lock they wouldn't do that, but as ive said all techniques against physically similar similar opponents are dependent on catch the other guy by surprise

 

[punisher73]

The defender, the one who is actually applying a joint lock, does NOT strike in Akikai Aikido.

What you mean to say is that the Aikido YOU have seen didn't strike. The Aikido dojo (Seidokan Aikido) I trained at, trained strikes with all of their techniques when applicable. Many of the techniques only work because of the reaction you are getting from your strike.

 

[Alan Smithee]

well you need better sparing partners then, we could spend ten minets with you failing to punch me, if i had enough room.

That is assuming you have room. Even if someone unrealistically grabs your wrist (leftover from the samurai era of stopping someone pulling a sword) you will not be able to move him, if he's just as strong as you

 

[Alan Smithee]

What you mean to say is that the Aikido YOU have seen didn't strike. The Aikido dojo (Seidokan Aikido) I trained at, trained strikes with all of their techniques when applicable. Many of the techniques only work because of the reaction you are getting from your strike.

Men those are offspring hybrid styles of Aikido. Still don't think it will work

 

[jobo]

That is assuming you have room. Even if someone unrealistically grabs your wrist (leftover from the samurai era of stopping someone pulling a sword) you will not be able to move him, if he's just as strong as you

i didn't say anything about grabbing wrists, i said grabs your clothing, which is not unrealistic, its 90% of all the fights ive seen, start with one person grabbing the other one, of the other 10% 90% of those start with a wild hay maker