Static training methods in the traditional martial arts

[clfsean]

There's a punch we use in CLF called "yum chaap choi". I've been on the receiving end of it before. It's not a good feeling... for days.

But the gist of it is, the arm rotates to thumb down after contact. The punch doesn't originate that way, but finishes that way. It's a selective use punch, with selective targeting & timing.

Me, my teachers, my training brothers... none of have injured ourselves with it to date, and date stretches back for some of into the early 90's & before. My sigung... the 60's & before.

It's all about how you train the technique from day one. If it's done properly (from nose to toes of the punch), you shouldn't encounter any issues. I say shouldn't since this is reality, not a movie. Murphy rules here just alike for the best of us & the worst of us.

 

[chinto]

I stand corrected

I was taught from about 4th Kyu in shobayashi and kept also with the Matsumura Seito to go to that 45degree possition where the whole thing has maximum strength, and less chance of injury, though also to use the vertical fist for some things. Once again the older styles at least of the Okinawan arts developed for combat, and have kept the attributes.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I really doubt whether the full twist adds power. Boxers hit awfully hard and the don't twist their fists to the same degree as in many karate systems. And of course some "traditional" systems do not use the twisting, horizontal fist at all. For example, Isshin Ryu and the traditional Chinese system I practice, Ving Tsun. Nor does "engaging more muscle groups" necessarily help. Using muscles unnecessarily can create unwanted tension and actually slow down a punch and restrict power.

Actually, this is precisely why we do straighten the arm completely when punching in Ving Tsun. There's no tension on the biceps to act as a "brake" and slow down the punch. We extend fully, with a very relaxed snapping punch, letting all our energy exit through a relaxed vertical fist. Significantly, the elbow is pointing down. I would not recommend extending the arm fully like this with the elbow held out to the side as in many other methods of punching.


I guess my point is that it is very easy to generalize about "traditional martial arts" when, in fact there is tremendous diversity. And a lot of widely held beliefs, like "the correct way to punch" really only represent one point of view. Another reason I like to hang out on this forum. I learn new stuff all the time.

The tension in the punch is only at the moment of impact, the arm is relaxed all the way through the punch for maximum acceleration and velocity until then. The arm is always straight (slightly bent but not locked) during the punch. Locking the arm out fully will damage the elbow joint. For a technique like the reverse knife hand having the arm completely straight and hitting a solid target hurts like hell. My system also uses a vertical punch but the arm is bent more than with a horizontal fist type punch. Boxers hit awfully hard because that is the main focus of their art. Maybe they could punch even harder if they added the twist as well.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I was taught from about 4th Kyu in shobayashi and kept also with the Matsumura Seito to go to that 45degree possition where the whole thing has maximum strength, and less chance of injury, though also to use the vertical fist for some things. Once again the older styles at least of the Okinawan arts developed for combat, and have kept the attributes.

In my style we use the vertical and horizontal fist, but I've never heard of a 45 degree fist, I'm going to have to try that one out!

 

[Cyriacus]

Boxers hit awfully hard because that is the main focus of their art. Maybe they could punch even harder if they added the twist as well.

You realise they do, right? If you hold a guard with your hands turned in so that the soft backs of the gloves work like a shield, your hand twists in order to punch. Though, you still seem to think twisting the punch adds power.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You realise they do, right? If you hold a guard with your hands turned in so that the soft backs of the gloves work like a shield, your hand twists in order to punch. Though, you still seem to think twisting the punch adds power.

Why do seem to think the twist does nothing?

 

[Cyriacus]

Why do seem to think the twist does nothing?

Well, i thought it did. Then i stood corrected, being a person who is willing to learn new things. That happened on the previous page.

 

[geezer]

The tension in the punch is only at the moment of impact, the arm is relaxed all the way through the punch for maximum acceleration and velocity until then. The arm is always straight (slightly bent but not locked) during the punch. Locking the arm out fully will damage the elbow joint.

When you say "the punch" you should specify which punch you mean. What is true for the punching you know is not true for all methods. When you learn how to use the particular kind of relaxed, elastic force favored in the various "WT" branches of Ip Man lineage Wing Chun you can train punches allowing the elbow to straighten. Of course you don't hit that way since at full extension you don't have any range left for your punch to penetrate and transfer energy into the target.

Now if you want to talk about possible injuries, take a look at the horizontal fist striking with the first two knuckles! --leaving the wrist inherently unstable. If you favor such a punch you'd better tighten up your wrist on impact, and better build up those wrist muscles with a lot of bag/makiwara work. Not so with the Wing Chun punch. You can hit hard with a relaxed fist. Just watch this guy. His elbow locks out straight and he can hurt you with a soft fist. I know, because I've been hit by him. At a fraction of his potential power that is, or I doubt if I'd be sitting here typing this. (Incidentally, I'm not in any way associated with this man, we just shared the same teacher about twenty years back).

 

[K-man]

When you say "the punch" you should specify which punch you mean. What is true for the punching you know is not true for all methods. When you learn how to use the particular kind of relaxed, elastic force favored in the various "WT" branches of Ip Man lineage Wing Chun you can train punches allowing the elbow to straighten. Of course you don't hit that way since at full extension you don't have any range left for your punch to penetrate and transfer energy into the target.

Interesting. I think of this as a 'tricep' punch. I teach it as an alternative to our conventional karate strikes, that you can perform if you have an injury to your thumb or index finger. :asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

When you say "the punch" you should specify which punch you mean. What is true for the punching you know is not true for all methods. When you learn how to use the particular kind of relaxed, elastic force favored in the various "WT" branches of Ip Man lineage Wing Chun you can train punches allowing the elbow to straighten. Of course you don't hit that way since at full extension you don't have any range left for your punch to penetrate and transfer energy into the target.

Now if you want to talk about possible injuries, take a look at the horizontal fist striking with the first two knuckles! --leaving the wrist inherently unstable. If you favor such a punch you'd better tighten up your wrist on impact, and better build up those wrist muscles with a lot of bag/makiwara work. Not so with the Wing Chun punch. You can hit hard with a relaxed fist. Just watch this guy. His elbow locks out straight and he can hurt you with a soft fist. I know, because I've been hit by him. At a fraction of his potential power that is, or I doubt if I'd be sitting here typing this. (Incidentally, I'm not in any way associated with this man, we just shared the same teacher about twenty years back).

I was referring to the basic horizontal fist punch such as a reverse punch form a forward stance in Karate or Taekwondo it also applies to such techniques such as the knife hand strike and backfist and especially the reverse knife hand (ridgehand). I can see how the wrist can be more stable in the Wing Chun punch, if you line up the 2 smallest knuckles with the ulnar bone then the fist can only move in 3 directions but if you line up the 2 largest knuckles with the radius bone the fist can move in all 4 directions so is less stable. As far as I know Wing Chun punches hit with the 3 knuckles from the pinky to the middle finger, which I thought was weird, it's just a different style of punching (life would be rather boring if we all did things the same way). Many martial arts punch with the first 2 knuckles because they are much larger than the other 2 and the striking surface has a smaller area. The bones and muscles in the hand are stronger on the thumb side than on the pinky side and thus less likely to fracture. These punches require strengthening of the bones and muscles, a martial artists body is a weapon and weapons must be forged so strengthening and conditioning exercises are performed and technique is improved upon so that you can strike effectively and reduce injuries.