Static training methods in the traditional martial arts

[RTKDCMB]

Which all goes to explain why the following is totally wrong.

:asian:

Punching whilst bringing the hand back to the hip is the purest most powerful form of the straight punch
Not meant as a blanket statement for all punches from all systems just for the particular system that uses them. Someone like a boxer may have a more powerful straight punch than someone from a system that uses the hip chamber but that does not mean that the hand coming back to the hip is not for the purpose of enhancing hip rotation. My poor choice of words did not make it very clearwhat I wanted to say. The punch performed in this manner is the simple basic form of the punch like a car straight off the assembly line. Having the non-punching hand stay in the guard position is a modification of the punch to protect from attacks, which is not so vital when you are practicing the basics on your own where no one is trying to punch you, (like sticking a spoiler and mag wheels on the new car and changing the color of the paint job). Also there are at least 3 techniques where the opposite hand grabbing and pulling the opponent back to the hip does not make sense. 1) the turning punch (hook), grabbing your opponent with one hand and pulling him to your hip would and you would be pulling him away from your punch. 2) Over the shoulder punch as in Yoo Sin hyung and 3) The rear knife hand cop to the groin. In both these last 2 cases the opponent would be behind you and you would not be able to grab end pull them back to your hip from the front in the way you would practice them in the basics and patterns. If bringing the hand back to the hip for a straight punch is only ever a grab and pull then why do you not see a Karate or Taekwondo practitioner grab and pull during free sparring with every punch? Is the grab and pull used only in the basics and patterns and only rarely used in free sparring and almost never used when the guard remains up during the punch?

 

[Flying Crane]

While I don't disagree that the basic instruction does aid in teaching body mechanics of waist torque, one can develop a similar amount of power from a 3 inch punch compared to a reverse punch when proper mechanics and timing are developed. However, I do not discount the benefits of the mechanics training as a beginner.

well, in our system we see the rotation as so fundamentally important that we simply never stop practicing, developing, and refining it, no matter what level one reaches. It is literally the foundation upon which our system is built. It is the first thing a new student is taught, and it simply never goes away. We practice the rotation by itself. As we practice our techniques we focus on rotation to drive them. As we practice our forms, every movement within the form is driven by rotation.

Given that the Okinawan methods were influenced by various Chinese methods, it is my suspicion that this may have been the original intention in the hand to hip issue, in the development of the Okinawan methods under Chinese influence. I suspect that on some level, this concept may have been lost, forgotten, or misunderstood by a lot of people. That is simply my opinion.

That doesn't mean that the grabbing and pulling applications are not valid. Of course they are. But when you grab and pull, doing so with full-body engagement will be much more powerful than pulling with the arm and shoulder alone. In fact, I often use the visualization of pulling on a rope when describing this method. Whether you are looking at the punch going forward, the grab and pull coming back, or the elbow driving rearward, they are all more powerful and effective when done with a full-body rotation, when that rotation is understood properly and engaged properly.

Personally, I believe that a lot of people do not understand how to engage the rotation properly. They believe they are doing so, but in fact there is a disconnection between the various body parts in the rotation. When it's disconnected, it severely undermines the potential that the rotational power has. So everyone swears up and down that they are doing it, but in fact in my opinion, many many people are not doing it properly and are not realizing the true potential that the method holds. But hey, again that's my personal opinion.

as for the inch-punching, I'll say that I don't really understand the method and that is really an important issue. One needs to train in a method that one can really connect to, that makes sense to him. It's impossible to qualitatively state that "this" or "that" method is THE best. What is best for the individual is what makes the most sense to him. That might be a reflection of the quality of instruction he has received, or it might be a reflection of how his brain works. But regardless, that matters more than anything else: pursuing a method that simply makes sense to one's concept of training and what works.

The rotational method makes sense to me, so I advocate it. And what I say here is meant to offer perspective to the discussion based on experience with this particular method. It is up to the individual to decide what makes sense to him, and what training route he wishes to follow.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The picture shows the attacker's left arm being captured and the right fist is ready for the strike. In this instance (in this picture) the punch will be launched from the carriage position but it doesn't mean it was pulled back there to prepare for the punch. If the retracted hand had been open, in that same position, it would have been protecting the ribs, sternum and solar plexus (Mizoochi).

Take a close look at he picture, you will see that the figure on the left is performing an inner forearm block. Unless he has fingers growing out of his wrist he is not capturing (grabbing) the other guy's hand unless he is about to open his hand and grab the arm, but there's no way to tell what he is going to do from the picture by itself. So either one of us could be right or wrong.

 

[Cyriacus]

Punching whilst bringing the hand back to the hip is the purest most powerful form of the straight punch
Not meant as a blanket statement for all punches from all systems just for the particular system that uses them. Someone like a boxer may have a more powerful straight punch than someone from a system that uses the hip chamber but that does not mean that the hand coming back to the hip is not for the purpose of enhancing hip rotation. My poor choice of words did not make it very clearwhat I wanted to say. The punch performed in this manner is the simple basic form of the punch like a car straight off the assembly line. Having the non-punching hand stay in the guard position is a modification of the punch to protect from attacks, which is not so vital when you are practicing the basics on your own where no one is trying to punch you, (like sticking a spoiler and mag wheels on the new car and changing the color of the paint job). Also there are at least 3 techniques where the opposite hand grabbing and pulling the opponent back to the hip does not make sense. 1) the turning punch (hook), grabbing your opponent with one hand and pulling him to your hip would and you would be pulling him away from your punch. 2) Over the shoulder punch as in Yoo Sin hyung and 3) The rear knife hand cop to the groin. In both these last 2 cases the opponent would be behind you and you would not be able to grab end pull them back to your hip from the front in the way you would practice them in the basics and patterns. If bringing the hand back to the hip for a straight punch is only ever a grab and pull then why do you not see a Karate or Taekwondo practitioner grab and pull during free sparring with every punch? Is the grab and pull used only in the basics and patterns and only rarely used in free sparring and almost never used when the guard remains up during the punch?

Mate, you can enhance hip rotation by way of just throwing yourself forward. Heres Lyoto Machida doing it.
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/592622/round3machidapunch.gif Behold, the tremendous amount of hip action. Also, ive read what he does there as being a bunkai of the lunge punch found in various systems. Grab the arm > Throw yourself forward > Punch > Then the leg catches up. It gets alot of weight transfer, as well as rotation in.

As for hook punches, you can grab and hook. It works quite well if you grab the opposite shoulder and punch over their arm. As for the rear knife hand to the groin, you can grab for that as well. Grab them by their lapel and do it. What do you mean by over the shoulder punch? I dont doubt i know the punch, though not by that name.

Also, i see plenty of grabbing in various forms of Karate, including sparring. Look at the JKA, or Kyokushin. Lots of grabbing happens if it isnt against the rules. As for TKD, i dont know what youve been seeing or doing, but we grab folks all the time. Also, the fact its in basics and forms should be proof of that. If its so basic, why isnt your Dojang doing it? Its pretty common, you know. Also, if you grab someone, your arm serves as a barrier, similar to if you had it up in a guard.

 

[mook jong man]

Seems to be mostly about Karate this thread.
But since the topic of rotation has cropped up I might just dip my oar in if its ok.
Bil Tze the third empty hand form of Wing Chun is primarily concerned with generating power through high speed rotation , similar to a whirlpool.

To generate the maximum speed and power and maintain stability in the form the circular force must be even , one elbow pulling back and the other elbow going forward.
If the forces are uneven the body becomes like a high speed spinning cylinder in a machine where the axle is not properly situated in the center , speed and efficiency is lost resulting in less power and stability.

In Wing Chun when circumstances arise where we will pull someone into a strike , it is done with a 45 degree pivot of the body.
This not only pulls them in and down , it also pulls them slightly out to the side , this serves to off balance them and also to negate any chance of them trying to hit with the other hand as they are coming in .
Its a bit like being sucked into a whirlpool except instead of water you are being dragged into elbow strikes , palm strikes etc.

In the clip of the Bil Tze form below you can see the rotation in action with the elbow strike sequences.

[video=youtube_share;cwG8xLTKkUs]http://youtu.be/cwG8xLTKkUs[/video]

 

[K-man]

we would suggest you begin the rotation by driving the rear foot into the ground, which actually drives the hip thru the rotation. That brings the entire torso into the rotation. This, as you say, drives the shoulder forward and powers the punch. However, you are missing the other side of the rotation. Pulling the other hand back, with connection to the torso, helps power that rotation. When something pivots around a point, both sides of the pivot aid in that action. If you only push the punch out, you are only paying attention to one side of the rotation. When you pull back on the other hand (with proper connection to the torso), you are then working both sides of the pivot.

Not in this case. In the extreme the back foot is not even on the ground an your weight moving forward is far more effective in enhancing the strike. Normally the back foot is purely for a balanced stance, nothing to do with driving. Just a different way of striking which is far more relaxed and far more penetrating. It is very similar to the WC one inch punch but I might deliver it from slightly further away depending on circumstance. The other hand coming back is the opposite effect of the shoulder acceleration forward, just that on the opposite side the hand comes back instead. The only time that would be different is if I was holding something, then I may pull it back. Even then, the chances are I would not pull back but my body would come up to that hand as I was moving in. :asian:

 

[K-man]

Having the non-punching hand stay in the guard position is a modification of the punch to protect from attacks, which is not so vital when you are practicing the basics on your own where no one is trying to punch you, (like sticking a spoiler and mag wheels on the new car and changing the color of the paint job).

Your fighting in the real world is how you train.

Also there are at least 3 techniques where the opposite hand grabbing and pulling the opponent back to the hip does not make sense.
1) the turning punch (hook), grabbing your opponent with one hand and pulling him to your hip would and you would be pulling him away from your punch.

We don't train hook punches.

2) Over the shoulder punch as in Yoo Sin hyung and

I would suggest that in my bunkai the 'over the shoulder punch' is a downward elbow strike but that's just me .. and when I perform it my lower hand is holding the opponent's arm or head. The only time I might strike over the shoulder, the attacker is obviously behind and grabbing me in which case the lower arm is striking backwards with the elbow.

3) The rear knife hand cop to the groin. In both these last 2 cases the opponent would be behind you and you would not be able to grab end pull them back to your hip from the front in the way you would practice them in the basics and patterns.

We don't have a rear knife hand chop to the groin. I doubt it could ever work if you are grabbed. Grab to the groin, yes.

If bringing the hand back to the hip for a straight punch is only ever a grab and pull then why do you not see a Karate or Taekwondo practitioner grab and pull during free sparring with every punch? Is the grab and pull used only in the basics and patterns and only rarely used in free sparring and almost never used when the guard remains up during the punch?

The answer to the first part is simple. Most sparring in TKD and karate is sport based and you are always out of range of grabbing or being grabbed. In most sparring competition you aren't even allowed to grab.

If you were sparring in our dojo, we start from distance where both forearms are in contact similar to Chi Sau in WC. I will be grabbing or trapping at every opportunity. :asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

Mate, you can enhance hip rotation by way of just throwing yourself forward. Heres Lyoto Machida doing it.
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/592622/round3machidapunch.gif Behold, the tremendous amount of hip action. Also, ive read what he does there as being a bunkai of the lunge punch found in various systems. Grab the arm > Throw yourself forward > Punch > Then the leg catches up. It gets alot of weight transfer, as well as rotation in.

As for hook punches, you can grab and hook. It works quite well if you grab the opposite shoulder and punch over their arm. As for the rear knife hand to the groin, you can grab for that as well. Grab them by their lapel and do it. What do you mean by over the shoulder punch? I dont doubt i know the punch, though not by that name.

Also, i see plenty of grabbing in various forms of Karate, including sparring. Look at the JKA, or Kyokushin. Lots of grabbing happens if it isnt against the rules. As for TKD, i dont know what youve been seeing or doing, but we grab folks all the time. Also, the fact its in basics and forms should be proof of that. If its so basic, why isnt your Dojang doing it? Its pretty common, you know. Also, if you grab someone, your arm serves as a barrier, similar to if you had it up in a guard.

Here is a video of the over the shoulder punch it is the 2nd and 3rd movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUKs9e91jmM&feature=related

My Dojang does use the grab and strike just not with every strike as grabbing with one hand also ties up that hand. AS for the Machida video that was a standard amount of hip rotation and it was hardly a the most powerful punch ever. So where did his non-punching arm end up? At his hip. Did he pull his opponent into him with the non-punching hand? No, thank you for proving my point. The lapel grab for the knife hand strike to the groin is not possible if they are standing behind you when you do it, simple test -have someone stand behind you and try to grab his lapel without turning around or reaching behind your back iy you can do that then you are not human.

 

[Cyriacus]

Here is a video of the over the shoulder punch it is the 2nd and 3rd movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUKs9e91jmM&feature=related

My Dojang does use the grab and strike just not with every strike as grabbing with one hand also ties up that hand. AS for the Machida video that was a standard amount of hip rotation and it was hardly a the most powerful punch ever. So where did his non-punching arm end up? At his hip. Did he pull his opponent into him with the non-punching hand? No, thank you for proving my point. The lapel grab for the knife hand strike to the groin is not possible if they are standing behind you when you do it, simple test -have someone stand behind you and try to grab his lapel without turning around or reaching behind your back iy you can do that then you are not human.

So you use grab and strike work? So, why dont you see it in free sparring? That was your question, not mine.

Standard amount of rotation? Yes. But its also more than youre capable of generating with both feet rooted into the ground. His arm was pulled back - This is something i *think* i mentioned earlier. Was his palm upright? No. Was his hand touching his hip? No. It was pulled back. Thats how just about everyone punches*, regardless of the level of their arm and regardless of if theyve ever taken a martial arts lesson in their entire life. That wasnt the most powerful punch ever, nor was it meant to be. He did grab his opponent - Thats how he got past his guard. I didnt prove your point - I didnt prove anything. I just showed you a gif of hip rotation and weight transfer being used in a punch along with a pulling of the arm. The punch he used was a lunge punch, and the arm check is the same non-punching-arm movement done prior to the punch by the KKW standard. Im fairly sure ive seen it in some karate as well, but what he did is a lunge punch, with the only difference being the rear leg catching up, instead of stepping first. The lead hand was used to hold the other persons arm to pull it downward. There was more power than you might think their was - What were you basing the perceived amount of power off of? That video was never about proving Hikite, it was about power generation. Hikite isnt something that needs proving.

Youre welcome, one and all, to try that same lunging punch at home with your free hand scratching the back of your head if you like. You get the same hip rotation from the forward movement itself. Just move your body forward, turn and punch, then let your rear leg naturally catch up and go in front of you to land.

As for knifehands: If theyre standing behind you, youre using a different technique to if theyre in front of you. To me a knife hand to the groin is a strike done in front of you - I thought thats what you were referring to.

As for over the over shoulder punches, bunkai wise id call it a headlock. Thats just me, though.

*Even if your guard is up, you pull your arm back.

 

[RTKDCMB]

He did grab his opponent - Thats how he got past his guard. I didnt prove your point - I didnt prove anything. I just showed you a gif of hip rotation and weight transfer being used in a punch along with a pulling of the arm.

I believe that was more a case of him brushing the hand away as he did not close his fingers or pull the other guy's hand back and the contact was very brief.

I would be interested in your view of twisting the wrist near the end of a strike for increasing power generation for punches and strikes.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I really don't disagree with anything you are stating Michael, and I would like to point out that the concept of rotation, specifically hip rotation is the key emphasis in power generation in my art. For example a stepping reverse punch: Ground reactive force (driving into the ground)> hip/waist rotation> up the torso> out the relaxed arm> rotation (pronation) of the heavy fist, while maintaining proper breathing, staying soft/relaxed until the point of impact, and keeping equal and opposite power (i.e. body rotation of equal speed and power), and exact timing (front foot touching the ground at the exact moment that the punch is delivered AND the chambered fist is stopped).

The technique NEVER changes. However, as we advance in rank/skill/experience, it is put into a deeper context than just power generation. The stance, rotation, chamber, etc. all have meaning in a SD situation, that is not relevant in a sparring situation, and this is the deeper context that we begin to practice (i.e. the grabbing/drawing hand).

I really appreciate your input and perspective on this, as CMA is something I am interested in, but have very limited knowledge about. Thank you.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Here is a video of the over the shoulder punch it is the 2nd and 3rd movement

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUKs9e91jmM&feature=related

I am asking this, because we do not practice this form or have a technique like this in any of our forms, but what is the intended target of the over the shoulder punch?

 

[Cyriacus]

I believe that was more a case of him brushing the hand away as he did not close his fingers or pull the other guy's hand back and the contact was very brief.

I would be interested in your view of twisting the wrist near the end of a strike for increasing power generation for punches and strikes.

He pushes the arm down. The contact was long enough to do the job. Its more important that it PERFECTLY mimics the lunge punch in KKW TKD.

The twist of the wrist? Yeah, it can add power in a way. Force on contact is the result of the knuckles being hard, and hard things being bashed into stuff creates force. The wrist twisting action can aid in penetration, for lack of a better word. Theres nothing wrong with that. Bunkai wise, it can facilitate a shove if youre holding someones arm with that hand. Rotating your arm engages more muscles within the arm. Its quite useful.

I feel like i should point something out: The hand back on the hip thing. None of us think its a bad thing. Its a good thing. Its your reasoning as to why its good thats in question. The same goes for alot of these things.

 

[clfsean]

well, in our system we see the rotation as so fundamentally important that we simply never stop practicing, developing, and refining it, no matter what level one reaches. It is literally the foundation upon which our system is built. It is the first thing a new student is taught, and it simply never goes away. We practice the rotation by itself. As we practice our techniques we focus on rotation to drive them. As we practice our forms, every movement within the form is driven by rotation.

Ditto. Rotate from the bottom up & out. Delivery isn't properly achieved unless it rotates & moves out.

Given that the Okinawan methods were influenced by various Chinese methods, it is my suspicion that this may have been the original intention in the hand to hip issue, in the development of the Okinawan methods under Chinese influence. I suspect that on some level, this concept may have been lost, forgotten, or misunderstood by a lot of people. That is simply my opinion.

Also... OMA's were more directly influenced by the shorthands from Fujian. I feel one of the biggest influences was Ngor Chor Kuen or the foundations of it at least... Sam Chien. Depending on who you see perform Sam Chien, you will or won't see chambering at the hip. Most of the other Fujianese stuff I've seen keeps the hands out in font & chambering just before a "long strike" from there as opposed to short strike from up front.

That doesn't mean that the grabbing and pulling applications are not valid. Of course they are. But when you grab and pull, doing so with full-body engagement will be much more powerful than pulling with the arm and shoulder alone. In fact, I often use the visualization of pulling on a rope when describing this method. Whether you are looking at the punch going forward, the grab and pull coming back, or the elbow driving rearward, they are all more powerful and effective when done with a full-body rotation, when that rotation is understood properly and engaged properly.

Yes... most definitely with the body. 99% of the techniques when fully engaging the waist (rotation) is body, not limbs or isolated segments. Can't chyuhn choi properly without it!

Personally, I believe that a lot of people do not understand how to engage the rotation properly. They believe they are doing so, but in fact there is a disconnection between the various body parts in the rotation. When it's disconnected, it severely undermines the potential that the rotational power has. So everyone swears up and down that they are doing it, but in fact in my opinion, many many people are not doing it properly and are not realizing the true potential that the method holds. But hey, again that's my personal opinion.

Actually this can be seen quite often when people claim to "twisting their waist" but the body is broken into 3 segments... upper, waist, lower. But no connectivity between the three. More often than not, it's only 2 connecting which will "feel" like everything is connected, but isn't.

as for the inch-punching, I'll say that I don't really understand the method and that is really an important issue. One needs to train in a method that one can really connect to, that makes sense to him. It's impossible to qualitatively state that "this" or "that" method is THE best. What is best for the individual is what makes the most sense to him. That might be a reflection of the quality of instruction he has received, or it might be a reflection of how his brain works. But regardless, that matters more than anything else: pursuing a method that simply makes sense to one's concept of training and what works.

Yep!!

The rotational method makes sense to me, so I advocate it. And what I say here is meant to offer perspective to the discussion based on experience with this particular method. It is up to the individual to decide what makes sense to him, and what training route he wishes to follow.

Yep!!

 

[clfsean]

I am asking this, because we do not practice this form or have a technique like this in any of our forms, but what is the intended target of the over the shoulder punch?

We used to do it in Pyungahn 3. The notion was an elbow strike back with a kick punch over the shoulder to an opponent to the rear. Now... I'm leaning more toward an elbow across the front & back... more than anything, a large rotation motion in the front with multiple options & possibilities.

 

[RTKDCMB]

My take on the twist of the wrist, not being a doctor or a biologist, I believe it adds power because you are engaging more muscle groups towards the end of the punch, like when you are doing a bicep curl with a dumbbell, if you do it with the palm facing up you are working the bicep but if you do it with your palm facing down you are working the forearm. Muscle groups work in pairs to produce movement, for example the bicep and triceps, one increases tension whilst the other one decreases tension. When the arm is completely straight the bicep has the minimum amount of tension and the triceps the maximum which is why the punching arm should always be slightly bent at the end of the punch so that the elbow is not damaged (I heard somewhere that the elbow joint can separate up to 2cm during a straight punch). For techniques like the back fist, reverse knife hand (ridge hand) or knife hand strike the increase in power by twisting the wrist is more direct. Twisting the wrist at the last moment adds a large burst of acceleration at the end as the knuckles, reverse knife edge or knife edge rotates into position towards the target. Twisting the wrist at the last second also gives you a convenient reference point to tension the arm at the right time and control where the hand stops.

 

[seasoned]

IMHO
If you want self defense that you can use in a short amount of time, take an 8 week SD course. Ears, eyes, nose, throat, solar plexus, groin, knee and related technique for each.

IMHO contunued,
Martial arts have their roots in China. The Chinese concept was not to open a dojo on every block, but, to pass the arts down to their family off spring at a very young age. By the time the little protagees reached adulthood they had 20 years of focused instruction.
In Okinawa after many visits back to China, the Okinawans took what they had learned and added it to their own form of fighting and the inception of Okinawan GoJu was formulated. To preserve this information a few kata were invented, namely, Sanchin and Tensho.
Goju meaning hard/soft, related to the hard Sanchin kata, the first kata learned. On the other end of the spectrum was Tensho with it's outward apearance of fluidity and flowing open hand techniques. I fear I am digressing so I will move on.

When the arts moved to Japan from Okinawa, it was seen as a exceliant means of transferring a sense of discipline to the education systen there, but needed a little toning down. This toning down consisted of diluting the kata to a punch, kick and block system, which was very conducive to competition (tournaments).

I know I condenced a lot of the happenings over many years. My hope here is that we can realilize IMHO that a lot of the issues brought up throughout this thread, "static training/chambering hand/twisting hips, are just a glimps of what lies just below the surface of the base of all Martial Arts, and that is KATA.

I will condense it even more by leaving you with this conclusion.

Hard becomes "fluid", big moves used for training "become small" for self defense, while striving to mantain that feeling of the big moves. Static training is only a means and by product of tournament endeavors.

All the above of course IMHO :asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

Pulling the hand back to chamber when punching does not provide a "seesaw" affect

The seesaw remark is not actually referring to a seesaw effect just a way of describing the motion, one kid goes up, one kid goes down, one arm goes forward, one arm goes back.

 

[Cyriacus]

My take on the twist of the wrist, not being a doctor or a biologist, I believe it adds power because you are engaging more muscle groups towards the end of the punch, like when you are doing a bicep curl with a dumbbell, if you do it with the palm facing up you are working the bicep but if you do it with your palm facing down you are working the forearm. Muscle groups work in pairs to produce movement, for example the bicep and triceps, one increases tension whilst the other one decreases tension. When the arm is completely straight the bicep has the minimum amount of tension and the triceps the maximum which is why the punching arm should always be slightly bent at the end of the punch so that the elbow is not damaged (I heard somewhere that the elbow joint can separate up to 2cm during a straight punch). For techniques like the back fist, reverse knife hand (ridge hand) or knife hand strike the increase in power by twisting the wrist is more direct. Twisting the wrist at the last moment adds a large burst of acceleration at the end as the knuckles, reverse knife edge or knife edge rotates into position towards the target. Twisting the wrist at the last second also gives you a convenient reference point to tension the arm at the right time and control where the hand stops.

I dont disagree with any of that.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

We used to do it in Pyungahn 3. The notion was an elbow strike back with a kick punch over the shoulder to an opponent to the rear. Now... I'm leaning more toward an elbow across the front & back... more than anything, a large rotation motion in the front with multiple options & possibilities.

We practice Pyungahn Samdan, but I don't teach it as a punch over the shoulder, well at least not in application. The elbow strike is a strike, but I teach the "punch" as a grab.

Look at the video at 6:36.