Tradition vs. Reality!

[Shogun]

Expedient weapons I have used in fights(or had used against me)
ps none ended in permanent injury or death

Sandpaper
Playschool slides (the green one)
Shovel head
bailing twine
peet moss
thumb tacs
GI joe figure (the elastic in the legs turns them into a good weapon)

Street fights rule! not really!

 

[loki09789]

Expedient weapons I have used in fights(or had used against me)
ps none ended in permanent injury or death

Sandpaper
Playschool slides (the green one)
Shovel head
bailing twine
peet moss
thumb tacs
GI joe figure (the elastic in the legs turns them into a good weapon)

Street fights rule! not really!

Heck, I used a big hunk of frozen ice from a puddle one time. Street fights don't rule, I agree...

Once I had a friend who studied and was proud of his art/training. He was very good and had a good reputation as a 'doer' in his school. When I first started training in FMA/MA and was trying to show him the stick work. He told me that if my instructor were there, he would hand my rattan sticks to my instructor and then square off in his Karate stance and say 'let's go'. At that point I realized that he was training more for his artistic skill than reality. Nothing wrong with that, but confusing that for your art being enough on the street is just dangerous. I really hope that this isn't coming from the mouth of instructors...setting people up for death and pain IMO.

 

[Shogun]

I havent really learned one technique in my martial arts classes in 8 years that I would use on the streets. My motto goes like this:

"everyone has a gameplan until they get hit" = especially true for MMA
"In a fight for your life, your martial arts training reverts back to the basic stage"

however, the principles of the martial arts have already saved me, and will continue to do so.

 

[loki09789]

I havent really learned one technique in my martial arts classes in 8 years that I would use on the streets. My motto goes like this:

"everyone has a gameplan until they get hit" = especially true for MMA
"In a fight for your life, your martial arts training reverts back to the basic stage"

however, the principles of the martial arts have already saved me, and will continue to do so.

Most martial arts practice now a days is like the joust of the medieval period. At first it started out as a way of preparing people for reality. After a while people started focusing on the training instead of reality. When I hear/read martial artists talking about focusing on understanding their art better and NOT about focusing on their art to make themselves better prepared for reality, I see what the objective is really about. Self perpetuation, self validation and personal interest. All that is fine and good as long as it is rewarding and healthy. BUT it isn't reality prep., it is training for the love of the process.

 

[Bod]

I've been thinking....

dangerous I know, but here goes:

Winning a fight or competition demands using your body and weapons in the most effective manner, while reducing your opponent's ability to defend or attack with their weapons. Examples of the former are punching in a stance that creates power and allows flexibilty ,or keeping your hands in front of you
where they can be used wuickly. Examples of the latter are pulling your opponent off balance or into a weak position, or running like the wind, making it difficult for him to stab you with his knife.

Sun Tzu said that if you know yourself you will win half your battles, if you know your enemy you will win half your battles, but if you know both yourself and your enemy, then you will be invincible.

What has this got to do with tradition versus reality?

Traditional arts tend to be characterised (by their detractors) as wishy-washy unproven arts, trained by by people who do kata - flowery movements designed to be performed as a ritual dance which wards off evil. Traditional arts are supposed to be about 'know yourself' in a rather onanistic way.

MMA or RBSD arts seem to have been characterised by their detractors as steroid pumped, sloppily executed, big mouthed, tattoed, macho fests. These arts are made out to be a long and pointless process of bashing each other as hard as you can in an aimless and crazed effort to get tough and fit and 'bad', with no real improvement over time, in the vain hope that your shaven head, bulging muscles and bad attitude will scare off the demons that lurk in your past.

Don't we actually have a know yourself/know your enemy dichotomy here, which is tota;lly unnecessary and in fact harmful? Aren't we looking at an 'improve your own movement'/'hamper your opponent's movement' split?

In truth there is no need for such a split. Only the worst traditional and modern instructors teach like this.

Many MMA guys who would blanch at the word 'kata' would happily do 'drills', even though many CMA schools I've seen actually call the complete set of one person drills they do, once strung together, a form. All BJJ guys worth their salt talk about drilling again and again and again. Yep, that means improving your technique.

Many CMA schools I've seen attempt to spar as fluidly as they can, some times with bong sau gloves. They try to understand their opponent, to know how to destroy his ability to fight whilst using their honed skills. They
are not unlike my boxing class, where sparring is done far, far less than working on your own form.

I do three traditional arts, not so much for breadth of experience, more because you can do boxing with sprained ankles and judo with bruised knuckles, and solo Bagua practice with both. Does that make me MMA? I also train for common scenarios I've seen in some of the rougher places and times that I've lived in. Does that make me RBSD? I train Bagua drills and
forms solo every day. Does that make me TCMA?

No, none of the above.

The only people who bang on constantly about one being better than the other are only trying to protect themselves from their fears, hiding behind the totemic power of their chosen 3 or 4 letter label. The only effective antidote to that fear is knowledge. Know yourself and know your enemy.

 

[Flatlander]

I would have liked to have been able to say that. That was a great post.

 

[kenpo tiger]

3. You train to 'pick up a brick' by well, training to 'pick up a brick.' I have run classes with stuff all over the floor and students have had to work around, through, with and over this stuff. "train like you fight, fight like you train" is my motto.

This might be kind of off the topic, but could you please explain, either here or a new thread or wherever appropriate, how you do this class? It sounds like something we should all incorporate into our training, and I'd like to hear what you do. Maybe I can adapt it for my classes. Thanks. KT

 

[kenpo tiger]

I've been thinking....

dangerous I know, but here goes:

Winning a fight or competition demands using your body and weapons in the most effective manner, while reducing your opponent's ability to defend or attack with their weapons. Examples of the former are punching in a stance that creates power and allows flexibilty ,or keeping your hands in front of you
where they can be used wuickly. Examples of the latter are pulling your opponent off balance or into a weak position, or running like the wind, making it difficult for him to stab you with his knife.

Sun Tzu said that if you know yourself you will win half your battles, if you know your enemy you will win half your battles, but if you know both yourself and your enemy, then you will be invincible.

What has this got to do with tradition versus reality?

Traditional arts tend to be characterised (by their detractors) as wishy-washy unproven arts, trained by by people who do kata - flowery movements designed to be performed as a ritual dance which wards off evil. Traditional arts are supposed to be about 'know yourself' in a rather onanistic way.

MMA or RBSD arts seem to have been characterised by their detractors as steroid pumped, sloppily executed, big mouthed, tattoed, macho fests. These arts are made out to be a long and pointless process of bashing each other as hard as you can in an aimless and crazed effort to get tough and fit and 'bad', with no real improvement over time, in the vain hope that your shaven head, bulging muscles and bad attitude will scare off the demons that lurk in your past.

Don't we actually have a know yourself/know your enemy dichotomy here, which is tota;lly unnecessary and in fact harmful? Aren't we looking at an 'improve your own movement'/'hamper your opponent's movement' split?

In truth there is no need for such a split. Only the worst traditional and modern instructors teach like this.

Many MMA guys who would blanch at the word 'kata' would happily do 'drills', even though many CMA schools I've seen actually call the complete set of one person drills they do, once strung together, a form. All BJJ guys worth their salt talk about drilling again and again and again. Yep, that means improving your technique.

Many CMA schools I've seen attempt to spar as fluidly as they can, some times with bong sau gloves. They try to understand their opponent, to know how to destroy his ability to fight whilst using their honed skills. They
are not unlike my boxing class, where sparring is done far, far less than working on your own form.

I do three traditional arts, not so much for breadth of experience, more because you can do boxing with sprained ankles and judo with bruised knuckles, and solo Bagua practice with both. Does that make me MMA? I also train for common scenarios I've seen in some of the rougher places and times that I've lived in. Does that make me RBSD? I train Bagua drills and
forms solo every day. Does that make me TCMA?

No, none of the above.

The only people who bang on constantly about one being better than the other are only trying to protect themselves from their fears, hiding behind the totemic power of their chosen 3 or 4 letter label. The only effective antidote to that fear is knowledge. Know yourself and know your enemy.

Sometimes thinking is a good thing. Good post. KT:asian:

 

[Bod]

Cheers.

But thanks also to all the others who posted on the subject. It made me think quite hard about the topic, as well as about the training I do and have done.

 

[loki09789]

The only people who bang on constantly about one being better than the other are only trying to protect themselves from their fears, hiding behind the totemic power of their chosen 3 or 4 letter label. The only effective antidote to that fear is knowledge. Know yourself and know your enemy.

Yup, That's why I haven't once said that MMA/Trad arts 'suck' or that Reality arts are 'better' than any other. My point has always been that Trad arts have a place in preparing people for reality. MMA have a place for preparing people for reality. BUT they will not TOTALLY prepare people if they exclusively train that way. Either from personal research or from a Reality program, Reality Prep requires much more than just the h2h training.

"Know your enemy...Know yourself" If you only train in a trad/mma art you are only preparing, mentally to see threats/attacks coming at you from a narrow set of expectation. These are will definitely help you 'know yourself' because you will be afraid, angry, lazy, "on"....the full spectrum at different times and have to cope with that.

My point isnt to 'bash' trad/MMA for being worse/better than "what I do." It is all about 'train like you fight, fight like you train'. You don't Play flag football exclusively to get ready for a NFL game.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I very much liked these informative posts.

I'd point out two things: in the first place, very, very few of us are, "training for the NFL," in any sense at all. Nor should we be; we haven't the talent, and we haven't the size, and we never did.

The second thing that I continue to wonder about is this: how do some folks manage to find so many street fights to get into? And what exactly do they mean by a, "street fight?" I mean, hitting somebody with a lump of ice? Not to mention the fact that I will bet a shiny nickle that nearly every single one of these fights could've been avoided...

Again, I guess, I don't think of "street fighting," and "self-defense," as the same things at all.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

All BJJ guys worth their salt talk about drilling again and again and again.

Bod: There is a significant difference between a BJJ drill and a form or kata.

In kata, one or two people do movements in a choreographed order. There are ideals for timing, position, targets, speed, power, etc. The spirit is cooperative.

A BJJ drill is a little different. Two people may start from a specific choregraphed position. One person may be trying to execute a specific technique or achieve a specific position. The difference is that the other person is resisting them and has the option to attack back. This makes the BJJ drill quite a bit different than a one-person or two-person kata. Sure, there is a period in BJJ practice where the technique or position to be drilled must be done cooperatively in an ideal phase--just as in a two-person kata. But the practice of the ideal phase is not "drilling". Drilling is sparring starting from a preset position with a limited set of desired outcomes--but it is sparring.

 

[Littledragon]

Bod: There is a significant difference between a BJJ drill and a form or kata.

In kata, one or two people do movements in a choreographed order. There are ideals for timing, position, targets, speed, power, etc. The spirit is cooperative.

A BJJ drill is a little different. Two people may start from a specific choregraphed position. One person may be trying to execute a specific technique or achieve a specific position. The difference is that the other person is resisting them and has the option to attack back. This makes the BJJ drill quite a bit different than a one-person or two-person kata. Sure, there is a period in BJJ practice where the technique or position to be drilled must be done cooperatively in an ideal phase--just as in a two-person kata. But the practice of the ideal phase is not "drilling". Drilling is sparring starting from a preset position with a limited set of desired outcomes--but it is sparring.

Very well said!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Forms aren't sparring or fighting in any way?

I'll be darned. I did not know that.

 

[loki09789]

This might be kind of off the topic, but could you please explain, either here or a new thread or wherever appropriate, how you do this class? It sounds like something we should all incorporate into our training, and I'd like to hear what you do. Maybe I can adapt it for my classes. Thanks. KT

It is pretty straight forward, so here should be fine.

Though this isn't my current routine (because I am not teaching a commercial program anymore), this is how I used to run the class on certain days, not everyday, but that is because there was an overall unit lesson plan that I worked from with broke down what percentage of the training time was devoted to fundamentals, application and tactical training. THe percentage shifted as students were in different phases of training.

For the classes that I did use it though:

I was lucky enough to share the floor with an aerobics instructor who had steps and risers for her classes there. We would toss these items, along with sparring/striking pads, focus mits, rattan sticks....you name it on the floor. As we warmed up doing footwork across the floor, students had to deal with these things being there. Sometimes it was letting them go around it, sometimes they had to go over it. If it was over, then they had to maintaint the same head level as they had while on level ground. My reasoning was that the drastic change in head level attracts the human eye and could either draw unwanted attention when you are trying to move in or sneak away AND it was a great leg work out because it developed lower body control/awareness.

This stuff isn't new, agreed. The military has been using this mentallity for ever to prepare people for reality. Just understand what you are training for and set up the training and the conditions so that you teach the parts that have to be later combined in application. Then give students an application/scenarion/reason for doing it. The point is not that your scenarios are perfectly accurate or specific but that they are set up so that students have to apply all the skills that they might need in reality.
That means

pre-contact assessment of a threat (important that not every scenario leads to 'fighting' response as the best/only choice),

tactical decision making to either get out of there or stand and defend yourself because fleeing would put you in more danger...

If the response is to stand and defend yourself. Do so with will and intent to neutralize the threat and escape at the first reasonable opportunity

whether you flee or defend and flee, you know or at least verbalize how/where you go to and what you do to make sure that it doesn't just continue the fight. (Get in your car and drive away, go to the nearest public place and get local assistance/LEO response on the way ASAP..., start writing out descriptions and details ASAP before you start forgetting....)

Contact your legal rep. and or seek support from family or professionals if you really are in need of help coping. PTS isn't just something that happens to LEO/Servicemen/women.

I started a thread a while ago where I broke down technical/tactical/strategic/conditioning into percentages of time commitment in training. No one really bit on it, but this is sort of what I was talking about.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Thanks Paul. We do a variation of that drill with the kids in our school - in fact, that was this morning for my Tiny Tigers and Little Dragons. They do an obstacle course, though, which incorporates basic skills like punching, kicking, avoiding a grab (they love that because we fall all over the place), ducking under, climbing over an obstacle, and so on.

Do you ever teach it where the students proceed as you described but there are attackers or lurkers, if you will, who create a diversion or try to attack them while they manoeuver through the course? Is that feasible? Can they pick up one of the blockers/pads and use it as a weapon spontaneously during an attack?

If you don't mind, I'm going to take your idea and run with it. Again, thank you for the explanation. KT:asian: aka Anne

 

[Bod]

OFK: There is a difference between static drilling and drills that become more and more live.

There is no reason that forms cannot be performed in this way, and they often are, with the whole 'catalogue' form being broken down into its component parts and those being drilled wit hgreater degrees of resistance, and against differing responses. It is a measure of a stand up school as to how far this can be done.

I have been to schools where the drilling and sparring were kept completely separate. Not surprisingly, I didn't learn much, in fact I think I got worse.

When it comes to the sparring versus kata debate, I stand pretty much in the middle, and agree that trying to execute good form with varying degrees of cooperation from a sparring partner is probably the best way of training in the modern age.

I believe that the best way of learning to fight comprises of 4 parts:

Form
Drilling
Sparring
Discovery training

Form is studying formal moves and theory on posture, position and pody usage.

Drilling is trying to internalise these body movements and theory. That means changing the response based on a stimulus, as well as getting the response down fast, so that there is a minimum of reaction time.

Sparring is making primarily training for the mind, almost like drilling without a preconception of what you are drilling for.

Discovery is thinking up how you would break a technique. It is destruction testing. It is 'what about this?', 'What if?', 'When doesn't this work?'. Usually best done with the least cooperative partner you can find. This is when you start to understand the theory. It questions the form. It needs honesty though, becasue there are some hard lessons.

Obviously these four components blur at the edges. Form becomes drilling becomes sparring leads to discovery, which questions form.

I do worry, however ,about the tendency to say 'This doesn't work'. You always have to qualify that type of assertion. When doesn't it work? Against weapons? In a cage fight? Against multiple opponents? Against a smaller opponent? From a slightly different angle? When your opponent is moving sideways?

I first started doing kung-fu for health, and it has only been by continuing these forms and drills that I have been able to train at all, in Boxing and Judo.

I agree that waving your arms about a la The Karate Kid is not going to make you a better fighter if that is the sum total of your training. Still, throwing out the baby with the bath water is not the way to go.

 

[Ippon Ken]

My coach's record: 9-2 in vale tudo. National ADCC qualifier, holder of multiple submission grappling titles.

TORRANCE? You said you were in san marcos, now torrence...Cmon, give a real location.

And how long where you there? What rank did you recieve?

Under phil cardella, who is DIRECTLY under relson gracie.

Bone VS bone? You mean like the fists in face and very hard shinbones crushing your leg, like you get in muay thai and vale tudo?

Check out our san marcos location, too. If you actually live there. We host open mat nights for a reason.

By the way, what's your defense against a double leg takedown? How bout a thai roundhouse?

Great he is King Sport Billy Boy. How big was the trophy?

I never said SM, fool, SA, es-say! Yeah. You know Gracie Trorrance? Rorion's school? Where Royce use to teach. I go to LA a lot and train there. I'm a 3-stripe blue.

At least your coach learned from Relson. He's a real martial artist.

Open concrete? WTH is an open mat? Is that training to ukemi on the concrete? Have you ever felt pebbles and glass on your back while your fighting in the guard. Don't think that your mat time translates direclty to the real world?

A Thai Roundhouse? I'd kick the kick (at the inside knee or thigh), use a shin block or kick the supporting leg.

A double-leg? I'd get my underhooks in, after controlling the head, sprawl or step back and take him down, elbow his occiput or knee his head.

These are just a couple of options, tough guy.

C'mon man. Face it. You've never seen real karate OR real fighting.

 

[loki09789]

Thanks Paul. We do a variation of that drill with the kids in our school - in fact, that was this morning for my Tiny Tigers and Little Dragons. They do an obstacle course, though, which incorporates basic skills like punching, kicking, avoiding a grab (they love that because we fall all over the place), ducking under, climbing over an obstacle, and so on.

Do you ever teach it where the students proceed as you described but there are attackers or lurkers, if you will, who create a diversion or try to attack them while they manoeuver through the course? Is that feasible? Can they pick up one of the blockers/pads and use it as a weapon spontaneously during an attack?

If you don't mind, I'm going to take your idea and run with it. Again, thank you for the explanation. KT:asian: aka Anne

Take it and enjoy. It wasn't feasible for the size of the class I was running at the time - adult or children, but your personalization/tailoring what ever you want to call it is a great idea for creating awareness/stress/adaptiveness.

We use to play a game we just called "chase" where students were literally chased like in freeze tag and set up with 3-5 possible attacks so that they could practice the basic self defense techniques that they had learned as a standard response. Of course because of the increasing fatigue, constantly changing direction, obstacles on the ground....it was more about deterimination and adaptation than about technical perfection. When students got to the point of near uncontrolled frustration/stress reaction we as instructor/attackers would switch gears to encouragers of ABC's (Attitude, Bearing, Control) and form with loads of positive reinforcement - but no reduction of stress/pressure - just a shift in goals/intent on the fly to reduce risk of injury to themselves or us.

One other thing I liked to do was to 'interview' students after really intense sessions where they have to recall and give me a play by play about the chase session down to which direction they ran, who attacked them, what they were wearing, how they attacked them...... all to reinforce that post attack interview with LEO. Check out Kim's Games too. Lots of good awareness fun. Great kids game too for a "Stranger Danger" sort of memory game.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Take it and enjoy. It wasn't feasible for the size of the class I was running at the time - adult or children, but your personalization/tailoring what ever you want to call it is a great idea for creating awareness/stress/adaptiveness.

We use to play a game we just called "chase" where students were literally chased like in freeze tag and set up with 3-5 possible attacks so that they could practice the basic self defense techniques that they had learned as a standard response. Of course because of the increasing fatigue, constantly changing direction, obstacles on the ground....it was more about deterimination and adaptation than about technical perfection. When students got to the point of near uncontrolled frustration/stress reaction we as instructor/attackers would switch gears to encouragers of ABC's (Attitude, Bearing, Control) and form with loads of positive reinforcement - but no reduction of stress/pressure - just a shift in goals/intent on the fly to reduce risk of injury to themselves or us.

One other thing I liked to do was to 'interview' students after really intense sessions where they have to recall and give me a play by play about the chase session down to which direction they ran, who attacked them, what they were wearing, how they attacked them...... all to reinforce that post attack interview with LEO. Check out Kim's Games too. Lots of good awareness fun. Great kids game too for a "Stranger Danger" sort of memory game.

Thanks again. I'll let you know what, if anything, we come up with. Can't wait to try it! KT