Static training methods in the traditional martial arts

[SahBumNimRush]

The punching aspect we teach is more in line with what is found at 7:18 in the video. I have not, personally, found the punch over the shoulder for an attacker coming from behind you to be effective. I am not flexible enough to get my fist behind my shoulder far enough with any amount of power.. .

 

[SahBumNimRush]

IMHO
If you want self defense that you can use in a short amount of time, take an 8 week SD course. Ears, eyes, nose, throat, solar plexus, groin, knee and related technique for each.

IMHO contunued,
Martial arts have their roots in China. The Chinese concept was not to open a dojo on every block, but, to pass the arts down to their family off spring at a very young age. By the time the little protagees reached adulthood they had 20 years of focused instruction.
In Okinawa after many visits back to China, the Okinawans took what they had learned and added it to their own form of fighting and the inception of Okinawan GoJu was formulated. To preserve this information a few kata were invented, namely, Sanchin and Tensho.
Goju meaning hard/soft, related to the hard Sanchin kata, the first kata learned. On the other end of the spectrum was Tensho with it's outward apearance of fluidity and flowing open hand techniques. I fear I am digressing so I will move on.

When the arts moved to Japan from Okinawa, it was seen as a exceliant means of transferring a sense of discipline to the education systen there, but needed a little toning down. This toning down consisted of diluting the kata to a punch, kick and block system, which was very conducive to competition (tournaments).

I know I condenced a lot of the happenings over many years. My hope here is that we can realilize IMHO that a lot of the issues brought up throughout this thread, "static training/chambering hand/twisting hips, are just a glimps of what lies just below the surface of the base of all Martial Arts, and that is KATA.

I will condense it even more by leaving you with this conclusion.

Hard becomes "fluid", big moves used for training "become small" for self defense, while striving to mantain that feeling of the big moves. Static training is only a means and by product of tournament endeavors.

All the above of course IMHO :asian:

Judging by the history as I understand it, you did quite an excellent job distilling over a millennium of martial history into the essence of why so many martial arts have so much difficulty connecting Kata/Hyung/Poomsae with their art beyond aesthetics, static training, and fitness.

Thank you.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

"Punch" over the shoulder:

 

[K-man]

My take on the twist of the wrist, not being a doctor or a biologist, I believe it adds power because you are engaging more muscle groups towards the end of the punch, like when you are doing a bicep curl with a dumbbell, if you do it with the palm facing up you are working the bicep but if you do it with your palm facing down you are working the forearm. Muscle groups work in pairs to produce movement, for example the bicep and triceps, one increases tension whilst the other one decreases tension. When the arm is completely straight the bicep has the minimum amount of tension and the triceps the maximum which is why the punching arm should always be slightly bent at the end of the punch so that the elbow is not damaged (I heard somewhere that the elbow joint can separate up to 2cm during a straight punch). For techniques like the back fist, reverse knife hand (ridge hand) or knife hand strike the increase in power by twisting the wrist is more direct. Twisting the wrist at the last moment adds a large burst of acceleration at the end as the knuckles, reverse knife edge or knife edge rotates into position towards the target. Twisting the wrist at the last second also gives you a convenient reference point to tension the arm at the right time and control where the hand stops.

Karate started with a neutral fist, not palm down. The strongest alignment is about 45 degrees. The idea that the twist delivers more power is more of a myth than anything else. There is an article titled "Punching" by Chris Thomas, which says it well.

http://www.usadojo.com/pdf-files/articles/chris-thomas/punching-power.pdf

:asian:

 

[Flying Crane]

Not in this case. In the extreme the back foot is not even on the ground an your weight moving forward is far more effective in enhancing the strike. Normally the back foot is purely for a balanced stance, nothing to do with driving. Just a different way of striking which is far more relaxed and far more penetrating. It is very similar to the WC one inch punch but I might deliver it from slightly further away depending on circumstance. The other hand coming back is the opposite effect of the shoulder acceleration forward, just that on the opposite side the hand comes back instead. The only time that would be different is if I was holding something, then I may pull it back. Even then, the chances are I would not pull back but my body would come up to that hand as I was moving in. :asian:

if this works for you and you are happy with it, then I won't argue the issue as far as your own training goes.

but fundamentally, I personally disagree.

 

[Flying Crane]

I really don't disagree with anything you are stating Michael, and I would like to point out that the concept of rotation, specifically hip rotation is the key emphasis in power generation in my art. For example a stepping reverse punch: Ground reactive force (driving into the ground)> hip/waist rotation> up the torso> out the relaxed arm> rotation (pronation) of the heavy fist, while maintaining proper breathing, staying soft/relaxed until the point of impact, and keeping equal and opposite power (i.e. body rotation of equal speed and power), and exact timing (front foot touching the ground at the exact moment that the punch is delivered AND the chambered fist is stopped).

The technique NEVER changes. However, as we advance in rank/skill/experience, it is put into a deeper context than just power generation. The stance, rotation, chamber, etc. all have meaning in a SD situation, that is not relevant in a sparring situation, and this is the deeper context that we begin to practice (i.e. the grabbing/drawing hand).

I really appreciate your input and perspective on this, as CMA is something I am interested in, but have very limited knowledge about. Thank you.

thanks for the clarification, I think we are mostly on the same page here. In your earlier post it was the comment of for a beginner, that kinda stuck out to me, and sparked my additional comments.

 

[Flying Crane]

Also... OMA's were more directly influenced by the shorthands from Fujian. I feel one of the biggest influences was Ngor Chor Kuen or the foundations of it at least... Sam Chien. Depending on who you see perform Sam Chien, you will or won't see chambering at the hip. Most of the other Fujianese stuff I've seen keeps the hands out in font & chambering just before a "long strike" from there as opposed to short strike from up front.

aye, and to be completely honest I don't know much about these methods and won't try to comment on any specifics because I simply lack the background. My gut tells me that the Fujianese stuff also harnesses rotational power, but they go about training it in a different manner. That's my gut speaking to me, but I cannot back it up with evidence because I simply lack the experience and knowledge.

 

[seasoned]

I am asking this, because we do not practice this form or have a technique like this in any of our forms, but what is the intended target of the over the shoulder punch?

I noticed there was no response to the above so I am chiming in here.

There is a similar move such as this in a GoJu kata. What appears to be a forward upper elbow strike, was later explaned as a rear over the shoulder punch to the unexpecting person doing a rear under the arms bear hug. It seems foolish that semeone would expose their face in this manner, but, not everyone we may encounter will be a trained opponent.

 

[K-man]

I noticed there was no response to the above so I am chiming in here.

There is a similar move such as this in a GoJu kata. What appears to be a forward upper elbow strike, was later explaned as a rear over the shoulder punch to the unexpecting person doing a rear under the arms bear hug. It seems foolish that semeone would expose their face in this manner, but, not everyone we may encounter will be a trained opponent.

This is the one I thought was referred to earlier. If it is Shisochin you are thinking of, that is the one where my bunkai takes it as a downward elbow strike to the spine. (The previous move has the attacker bent forward.) In actual fact, from a bear hug it is possible their face will come forward as a result of the rear hip thrust but I agree that it would not be the easiest strike to pull off. :asian:

 

[seasoned]

I don't want to sound corny here, but, this thread has gone very well with much input from all, as we all bring together out thoughts and teachings from our own respective arts.

Just an observation.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I like the one at ~7.25, We do a similar one during one step sparring but without the punch, just a choke hold and/or throw.

 

[chinto]

IMHO
If you want self defense that you can use in a short amount of time, take an 8 week SD course. Ears, eyes, nose, throat, solar plexus, groin, knee and related technique for each.

IMHO contunued,
Martial arts have their roots in China. The Chinese concept was not to open a dojo on every block, but, to pass the arts down to their family off spring at a very young age. By the time the little protagees reached adulthood they had 20 years of focused instruction.
In Okinawa after many visits back to China, the Okinawans took what they had learned and added it to their own form of fighting and the inception of Okinawan GoJu was formulated. To preserve this information a few kata were invented, namely, Sanchin and Tensho.
Goju meaning hard/soft, related to the hard Sanchin kata, the first kata learned. On the other end of the spectrum was Tensho with it's outward apearance of fluidity and flowing open hand techniques. I fear I am digressing so I will move on.

When the arts moved to Japan from Okinawa, it was seen as a exceliant means of transferring a sense of discipline to the education systen there, but needed a little toning down. This toning down consisted of diluting the kata to a punch, kick and block system, which was very conducive to competition (tournaments).

I know I condenced a lot of the happenings over many years. My hope here is that we can realilize IMHO that a lot of the issues brought up throughout this thread, "static training/chambering hand/twisting hips, are just a glimps of what lies just below the surface of the base of all Martial Arts, and that is KATA.

I will condense it even more by leaving you with this conclusion.

Hard becomes "fluid", big moves used for training "become small" for self defense, while striving to mantain that feeling of the big moves. Static training is only a means and by product of tournament endeavors.

All the above of course IMHO :asian:

I think you have covered a lot well, I would say rather that Chinese martial arts combined with those from India, as in Varji mushti that Bardidarma was trained in. but either way, Kata was used to transfer the systems in China and later Okinawa and then Japan.

The tournement thing seems to have mainly come from Japan initially. The Okinawans have kept the combat usage very well from what I can see, and have never had any problem with an instructor in the Okinawan styles teaching for Self Defense and not for sport.

In Japan it became much more a block kick punch thing partly to differentiate it from Jujitsu. So most of the Japanese Karate Systems do not teach as much trapping, locking and throwing as the Okinawan systems

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I don't want to sound corny here, but, this thread has gone very well with much input from all, as we all bring together out thoughts and teachings from our own perspective arts.

Just an observation from the peanut gallery.

I could not agree more, THIS is why I love MT!

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't want to sound corny here, but, this thread has gone very well with much input from all, as we all bring together out thoughts and teachings from our own perspective arts.

Just an observation from the peanut gallery.

That's why I started it.

 

[Cyriacus]

Karate started with a neutral fist, not palm down. The strongest alignment is about 45 degrees. The idea that the twist delivers more power is more of a myth than anything else. There is an article titled "Punching" by Chris Thomas, which says it well.

http://www.usadojo.com/pdf-files/articles/chris-thomas/punching-power.pdf

:asian:

I stand corrected

 

[K-man]

Victor Smith, who is a member of MT writes articles for numerous martial art magazines. In light of the discussion of the 'hikite' hand and chambering, I would like to post this link to his article in 'Fighting Arts' on the subject.

Chambering


By Victor Smith and Christopher Caile


If you are a karate student you probably chamber your non-striking hand. But why do you do this, and what is the position of the chambered hand? Also, why do different systems do things differently, and why isn’t chambering explained by instructors?

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=317

:asian:

 

[geezer]

My take on the twist of the wrist, not being a doctor or a biologist, I believe it adds power because you are engaging more muscle groups towards the end of the punch...

I really doubt whether the full twist adds power. Boxers hit awfully hard and the don't twist their fists to the same degree as in many karate systems. And of course some "traditional" systems do not use the twisting, horizontal fist at all. For example, Isshin Ryu and the traditional Chinese system I practice, Ving Tsun. Nor does "engaging more muscle groups" necessarily help. Using muscles unnecessarily can create unwanted tension and actually slow down a punch and restrict power.

When the arm is completely straight the bicep has the minimum amount of tension and the triceps the maximum which is why the punching arm should always be slightly bent at the end of the punch so that the elbow is not damaged...

Actually, this is precisely why we do straighten the arm completely when punching in Ving Tsun. There's no tension on the biceps to act as a "brake" and slow down the punch. We extend fully, with a very relaxed snapping punch, letting all our energy exit through a relaxed vertical fist. Significantly, the elbow is pointing down. I would not recommend extending the arm fully like this with the elbow held out to the side as in many other methods of punching.

I guess my point is that it is very easy to generalize about "traditional martial arts" when, in fact there is tremendous diversity. And a lot of widely held beliefs, like "the correct way to punch" really only represent one point of view. Another reason I like to hang out on this forum. I learn new stuff all the time.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I noticed there was no response to the above so I am chiming in here.

There is a similar move such as this in a GoJu kata. What appears to be a forward upper elbow strike, was later explaned as a rear over the shoulder punch to the unexpecting person doing a rear under the arms bear hug. It seems foolish that semeone would expose their face in this manner, but, not everyone we may encounter will be a trained opponent.

I am not sure exactly what the application is for the over the shoulder punch but it could be used if someone is standing behind you in a threatening manner but not necessarily grabbing you such as when someone in front of you is posturing for a fight and you are backing away and you bump into his friend so you take him out with a simultaneous punch and elbow. It could also be against someone who has grabbed your elbow or neck from the rear. It would not be on the top of my list of techniques to use but it could come in handy, after all it is better to have something and not need it than to need something and not have it.

 

[harlan]

Regarding the comparison between the Goju technique and the original video, I'd say it's apples vs oranges. There is a 'drop' in Shisochen, and while there are two main interpretations they are from a rear attack/bear hug (punch over the shoulder to the rear attackers face...which is obviously bogus...and the other application being a rear elbow to the ribs while pushing/striking forward with the forearm to break the hold). I'd say the drop in body would signify something other than a rear punch.

Personally, I'm currently argueing this with my teacher (yes...full of myself, LOL!), that this technique is actually a finish to a prior technique. But definitely not an over the shoulder punch.

 

[Xixon]

...The idea that the twist delivers more power is more of a myth than anything else. ..

I've experienced a compression punch where the well conditioned knuckles twisted on impact. The twist felt like it was tearing my skin, pretty painful.