Flatlander
Grandmaster
I'm not familiar with the Marine H2H training. Why not post your knowledge of it here:gusano said:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=241370#post241370
It may compliment the discussion there nicely.
It may seem that way to you because you are looking at it through the eyes of a person trained only in h2h type fighting arts. The Marine Martial art program, as far as combatives goals, is much like boxing - a few simple techniques and tactics that you can do in your sleep regardless of fatigue (which will always be there)or fear(because someone is trying to really kill you everytime you really use it). Also, it is designed to be used as a way to survive until you can get to another gun to shoot that guy who is trying to kick and punch/grapple you.gusano said:
Maybe sport arts 'always' win against 'reality arts' because the venues for matching them up are 'sporting'... sort of stacks the deck in favor of sport arts when the 'no rules' rules say that I can't bring my gun, pepper spray or my eye gouging techniques into play because of a lack of legal justification and (in the event of ticketed events) the insurers/promoters frown on death and mangling in the extreme. Bad for business.
Remember, in a 'real fight' someone's car is always faster and bigger than you are.
I was a Marine for 7 years on active duty. The Marine Corps offers the best marksmanship training in the world. The h2h training is a joke. I routinelly get guys at my academy who are fresh out of the Corps, young, in great shape, etc and my teenagers tap them like typewriters. From their OWN MOUTHS they say how they THOUGHT they could defend themselves and are helpless against mere BOYS!
I also was a Marine 6 years between active and reserves, the Marine Corp martial arts program currently in use is modelled after the ROK Marine martial arts program and the Hagana/Krav program of the Israeli's. The problem with the h2h is not the 'art' or the 'philosophy', but the perception of where it fits into the training. The current goal is to use the Marine Martial arts as a confidence builder, fighting spirit developer, PT AND as another battlefield/peacekeeping operational tool.gusano said:
I loved the simplicity of the old LINE system, just didn't see it instituted as part of regular training enough to get the benefits out of it. Now, the Marine Martial arts is even part of the promotion incentive - much like the ROK marine NCO rank/belt rank are linked.
Honestly, I saw the old LINE training used more effectively and consistently in my Reserve Infantry unit than in most of my active units. It is available but it depends on the unit.
As has been mentioned in the past, it isn't the 'art' that is a joke it is the training of the student and how well they are prepared for a particular fight that can make it that way.
Semper Fi, and where/when were you in?
hedgehogey
Green Belt
So what you're saying is that us sports guys are SO good that the only way you can beat us is with a pistol?loki09789 said:
There are events that allow this. And it's all legal in the gracie challenge.
OOH, x-treme! After you use your anti grappling, maybe you could slam a mountain dew before blowing up a secret al qaida hideout.
Remember, in a 'real fight' someone's car is always faster and bigger than you are.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]I will address each in order:hedgehogey said:
Sport guys: If two runners, sprinter and marathoner, compete side by side in either a short course or marathon the one who has trained only and specifically for the event will be at an advantage. Sprinter will not be as 'prepared' for the marathon and vice versa. I was not saying that the sport artist is without abilities in a street fight, just not as well rounded and the Reality artist is not as specialized as the sport artist.
A 'fight' on the street IMO starts the minute that you assess a threat as reasonable and possible. How many sport artists do you know who understand legal use of force/deadly force and align their martial skills to make sure that they are effective without going overboard? How many know how to be successfully interviews/questioned by LEO so that they can make a seamless case of justified use of force? Sport artist may be able to fight 'harder' or hit harder, but on the street who will fight smarter?
As far as the Gracie's there ARE RULES it is a gladiator/boxing type of event. Artist vs. Artist/System vs. System NOT a test of a 'reality fight.' These types of fights are insured and/or take place in plain sight. The 'legallity' of techniques and fighting in a Gracie match would, I think, still be considered 'illegal' by Brazilian legal authorities, Nevada sports commision on Licensing or any other state/country that these 'duels' take place. They are not realistic tests of street fight practicallity.
Personally, my favorite anti-grappling technique is pepper spray, cars, words, screaming like a girl and running with my hair on fire.....Don't confuse disagreement with insult. I don't agree with your point, not attacking your practice. You might be a better grappler than I am, but if I can eliminate the chance of a grappling situation with smarts and tactics then I win on the street. If it comes down to locking horns, no matter how well trained anyone is, I still say it comes down to will and fitness/conditioning as the deciding factor more than trained style/techniques.
Thanks for leaving my car quote, it sort of sums up my mentallity on this stuff.
I
Ippon Ken
Guest
19! Then STFU. Where's your proof that what you or your teacher does works? Unless he's a Gracie or Machado I don't beleive it and he/you shouldn't either.hedgehogey said:
I train with Ryron Gracie at Gracie Torrance (LA). You know the GJJ (all BJJ is GJJ, get it right) school that started it all. I also trained with Caique (Prof. Carlos Enrique Elias- C-Arson, Cali.), Rickson's best friend and number one BB (5th degree). It's a limited art unless you cocentrate on Helio's SD techs, which are only really taught at Gracie Torrance, in private. That's the GJJ that Helio wanted perpetuated not only the modified Judo Newaza, crap.
Who do you train with and who did they train with?
Now when you say you will fight me "anything goes", that must mean outside your school, on the blacktop. Okay, I'll see you soon, tough guy.
We not only spar in Shorin Ryu, we go all out. Even if we didn't I can tell you've never fought for real, and that you would be someone who froze up the first time bone connects bone. Seen it dozens of times, Sport Billy.
So you're saying that sport always wins outside the ring? You're just plain stoopid then and I think I'd like to visit your school. See you in 2 weeks, hahaha!
BTW, I trained in MT Kru and MT Boran under Somchat Siddachai for 2 years. My Shorinkan Sensei was his current sensei. Somchat was the middleweight Thai champ in the 80s, then he moved to the PI and taught Thai Boxing in Manila and Angeles City. He knew REAL Muay Thai but decided to learn Shorinkan to increase his MAs knowledge and skill. Why could he see the value in it, and the know-nothing know-it-alls here couldn't? Just like everything else, money- not true worth and logic, makes it legit.
All you ring boys can kiss my ***. I'll PM you if you think I'm only a web warrior and we can squab', ladies! You'll have to sign a damage waiver first and agree to have it video taped, hahahaha! I don't wanna get sued for beating up little women, hahahahaha!
Like Gangstar said, "step up, step, step up, step up"!
) for the rest of my time 'til 2002.hedgehogey
Green Belt
My coach's record: 9-2 in vale tudo. National ADCC qualifier, holder of multiple submission grappling titles.Ippon Ken said:
TORRANCE? You said you were in san marcos, now torrence...Cmon, give a real location.
And how long where you there? What rank did you recieve?
Under phil cardella, who is DIRECTLY under relson gracie.
Wrong. We don't want nor need legal repercussions.
Bone VS bone? You mean like the fists in face and very hard shinbones crushing your leg, like you get in muay thai and vale tudo?
Pics? Vids? Oh by the way, check out the challenge match clips on bullshido.net, specifically "BJJ vs KARATE and MMA vs KARATE".
Funny thing. Those want to pick fights have all avoided me after I started doing vale tudo. But yes, whenever we've seen sport vs "street" fighters clash, the sportfighter always wins, dozens of rules or no rules. Thousands of hours of videotape proves this.
Check out our san marcos location, too. If you actually live there. We host open mat nights for a reason.
By the way, what's your defense against a double leg takedown? How bout a thai roundhouse?
Thus proving my point about how sport vs "reality" is skewed as a valid 'test.'hedgehogey said:
Street fights are about survival and escape not supremacy or proof. The only 'rules' on the street for the responsible "Joe/Jane Citizen" is to know and train to use 'justified' force within the law. Tools/techniques/tactics are not the issue. I can use a gun, knife, stick, brick, empty hand...or any combination of these to defend myself as long as I do so within the parameters of 'justified' force.
This style vs. style stuff is no different than cage fighting. It makes for very determined, effective h2h fighters, but ignores the other areas that "Reality" training covers.
hedgehogey
Green Belt
Sport vs "street" isn't even a true debate. It's a false dichotomy, which by it's very nature assumes two things:loki09789 said:
1: That sportfighting is not good for teh str33t
2: That just because you train to beat fifteen crips that makes you better at doing it than, say, a golden gloves boxer.
Ok. Now I have a question. How do you "train" to be able to pick up a brick and hit someone with it? Do you practice a brick kata?
Here's an analogy: You have to choose one man to run a 100 meter distance at a randomly chosen location.
Who do you choose:
1: An olympic sprinter
2: A practicioner of "reality running" who may or may not actually run anywhere or be in shape, but trains his "reality running" with the idea in mind that when you run outside of a sporting event you could encounter bricks, curbs, lampposts, cars, etc.
Of course running a 100 meter dash isn't the same in an arena as it is in brooklyn. But i'd choose the sprinter, because regardless of environment, he runs VERY VERY FAST. A LOT. Do you understand the analogy?
OK. Well noone said that you shouldn't be aware of your environment (though it only needs to be "taught" to the bourgoise), but noone can reasonably doubt that champion no rules fighters are the best at what they do, which is hand to hand fightng.
Just like olympic marathonists are great at running, even though they know to watch out for curbs outside the track.
K
Katsu Jin Ken
Guest
Everywhere you go Hedge you have to start stuff.
We have gone through this over, and over, and over........so here lets sum up my opinons.
Kata is for mental training, and practice of proper technique.
To compare throwing a brick, its like a baseball, you have to learn the right way to throw it or you wont throw as fast or hard. Repetetion of the wrong way of doing anything will result in lesser performance. I know your hardcore MMA, but that isnt the only thing in fighting. Sure BJJ is good, but whos to say its better than other arts? Again, its the person that is a good fighter not the art. Ive seen TKD BB beat grapplers, Grapplers beat Karate, and untrained beat silver glove boxer, and im sure everyone else has seen things of that nature. Whats good on the street? EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!! It all depends on the situtation, the person, and the place. To try and predict the outcome of a street encounter, or say "i train in ::insert art:: so im unbeatable on the street" is just ignorance. To me MA should be done in this order: Get Educated (about the art), Get Traditional (about the choosen arts tradtions face it anything you do in your school is someway linked to some tradition i dont care what art you train in), Get Trained (K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid), Get your own opinon (no you can form your own opinon and actually know WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT).
if you havent done that STFU.
We have gone through this over, and over, and over........so here lets sum up my opinons.
Kata is for mental training, and practice of proper technique.
To compare throwing a brick, its like a baseball, you have to learn the right way to throw it or you wont throw as fast or hard. Repetetion of the wrong way of doing anything will result in lesser performance. I know your hardcore MMA, but that isnt the only thing in fighting. Sure BJJ is good, but whos to say its better than other arts? Again, its the person that is a good fighter not the art. Ive seen TKD BB beat grapplers, Grapplers beat Karate, and untrained beat silver glove boxer, and im sure everyone else has seen things of that nature. Whats good on the street? EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!! It all depends on the situtation, the person, and the place. To try and predict the outcome of a street encounter, or say "i train in ::insert art:: so im unbeatable on the street" is just ignorance. To me MA should be done in this order: Get Educated (about the art), Get Traditional (about the choosen arts tradtions face it anything you do in your school is someway linked to some tradition i dont care what art you train in), Get Trained (K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid), Get your own opinon (no you can form your own opinon and actually know WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT).
if you havent done that STFU.
1. I would agree that some of the sport arts (point sparring and such) would not make a great street fighter, but if you read my post, I did acknowledge that the extreme/full contact/MMA training stuff has it's place in "Reality" training. I am just saying that is isn't enough because there is more than 'fighting' happening in a 'street fight'.hedgehogey said:
2. Well, like I said, if you have to/get to pick someone to cover your back in this situation, I would pick someone who had trained/experience for that situation. I wouldn't pick a clinical researcher to do patient practice in medicine if I got to choose betwee the two because, though the clinician might be great at the science, there is more to patient care than just science - making the patient practice doctor more appropriate.
3. You train to 'pick up a brick' by well, training to 'pick up a brick.' I have run classes with stuff all over the floor and students have had to work around, through, with and over this stuff. "train like you fight, fight like you train" is my motto.
4. The analogy you are piggybacking with is falling short because a sprinter is trained to run on a flat open track all out with no concern for quick direction changes, brokenfield steps, or obstacle avoidance. I would pick the marathoner because they tend to have the short burst speed needed along with the endurance to keep going and recover more quickly from those short bursts. Sprinters run hard and stop with tons of time in between. Marathoners really run marathons on the streets of cities and in the country so I would say they have better environmental awareness as a product of their training as well.
5. Reasonably speaking, a true martial artist doesn't reject or belittle any thing that will make him/her more effective and well rounded. I am saying that training for full contact/hard hitting and 'no rules' types of venues is useful, but not wholistic enough for self defense. It should be part of a 'reality training program' but not the exclusive content of such a program.
If just being a great h2h fighter is enough, why do LEO/military of any age or time apply tactical training, weapons training and strategy in the curriculum of the development of a 'reality' soldier warrior? Martial artists interested in reality preparation should either train in a school or seek on their own the other than 'martial' skills that are needed to be ready.
hedgehogey
Green Belt
All right. Do you agree that, for hand to hand fighting, MMA pretty much rules, since that is what MMAists do?loki09789 said:
How do you spar your brickfighting? What i'm thinking is that, unless you've lived a sheltered life, I don't think it's possible to train awareness of "environmental weapons". You pick up a brick and hit someone with it. That's just common sense. What kind of moron needs to be told to do that? There's no technique to it! There's no "proper" way to hold a brick! It's not neccesary!
Right, right, but you're missing the point. GIVEN THE CHOICE between a "reality runner" and an olympic sprinter, who do you choose to run a 100 meter distance?
Because 5-0 has many more things to worry about than hand to hand. Legal issues, use of weapons (especially to club black males or shoot them if they try to take out their wallets), etc. H2H is only a small facet of what they need to know.
Civilian needs are different.
I used to think that too. Then I ran into someone with less will, strength, and conditioning, but a ton of technique through lots of training and my eyes were opened. MMA events are reality based! They are the best indicators of what will or won't work in a real fight! If you have to resort to picking up bricks etc, then how effective is the art that you so diligently practice. You may as well buy a pistol and quit working out!loki09789 said:
I am applying "economy of motion" by using the best tool for the job. A brick is harder and more effective than my fist, if I can get it, I will.gusano said:
My job in a real fight is to be able to recognize the threat, try to neutralize it before it gets to a brawl and hit and run if it becomes a brawl. I am not there to 'apply my empty hand martial arts exclusively'.
SHould soldiers/LEO quit using firearms, pepper spray or radios to minimize the amount of physical force they apply to accomplish their task? Should the ancient martial arts masters like Musashi not trained in swords or other weapons? Should a 90 year old woman rely on her 'art' practice of tai ji art for the past umpteen years instead of good sense and a pistol?
What works in a real fight is getting out of there. Period. Environmental weapons training is just as valid as any other training. Stay there and try and win and you leave the chance of a firearm coming into play or other opponents weapons that will kill you no matter how 'dishonorable' you find them. You also spend more time tangling instead of escaping - making it easier for LEO/witnesses to percieve the situation as a mutual combat instead of self defense on your part...
Real fights are dirty, nasty and there are Really no rules there (at least for the Bad guy. For you it is better to stay within the local use of force guidelines). People use screwdrivers, shovels, fists, cars, pepper spray and other weapons to win. Ignore that reality or the necessity that you might have to employ these weapons as well and you are being dillusional about street effective training. Your empty hand might be hardcore, but it is only one skill set, there are others that need to be trained.
