Sport And TMA....Again

[Hanzou]

Higher chance, okay. Thing is, should you go for it at all? Honestly, it's quite an odd choice for any self defence situation, and would be one of the last things I'd suggest or rely on, as it keeps you on your back, with someone on top of you, tying up your limbs... not a good position to deliberately put yourself in.
In competition, okay. Self defence? Far from advisable.

http://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/femal...rapist-to-sleep-with-triangle-choke-in-dubai/

Also it doesn't tie up your limbs. Both arms are free. The choke comes from the thighs, and the opponent's trapped arm. Of course there's nothing wrong with punching someone in the face, or placing both hands around your opponent's head to make the choke worse.

No, it's not fair to say that, many Aikido dojo do spar, just not in an MMA format. Tomiki/Shudokan Aikido is quite known for it, but most others have a form of training referred to as randori (not the same as Judo randori), which can be described as a form of sparring.

You mean like this;

I wouldn't consider that sparring.

You're coming up against another of your poor interpretation of

martial arts here, by the way. You're thinking a black belt in one art equals a black belt in another... and that's just simply not the case. For instance, you talk here about a purple belt being able to teach others, which is in about 5-6 years... it's not uncommon for that timing to be a shodan (black belt) in Aikido... so you're talking about potentially similar skill-sets in different arts. But that still doesn't mean the same skills, or the applicability in the same contexts. An Aikidoka with 5-6 years experience is probably also able to teach others... and is potentially a shodan....but hasn't trained for BJJ or MMA competition. Are you going to say that just because the context of both the training and intented application is different to yours, it's not valid? Seriously, get over yourself.

I never said that. I said that many people have stated that Aikido takes a very long time to use effectively. I was saying that Bjj takes significantly less time. To the point, I was saying that Bjj is easier to learn than Aikido. Surely we can both agree with that can't we?

 

[Hanzou]

Just have to add if BJJ is supposedly the be all and end all as has been suggested, then if we take the UFC as a benchmark as such, then why are the statistics for last year (2012) fairly equal for wins by KO/TKO or submission (in fact it is slightly higher for KO/TKO). (58 to 46 if you don't want to read the linked article).

Please refer to this link: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/7/17/3163315/ufc-2012-fight-statistics-ufc-stats for details.

To me all this has proved, as Chris has said that each art/style whether TMA or MMA work for each individual and for what they want to get out of it. MMA has moved on so far from UFC 1 that it would be highly unlikely to see a successful fighter that was only purely trained in one art say BJJ or Tang Soo Do for example.

It has to be stated that people, in my opinion, train and compete for their own reasons, if you love to strike, you are more than likely going to be training in a striking art and competing in competitions that are striking based, this does not make you better than the grapplers out there, but it also doesn't make you worse or flawed in some way because you don't train the way they do.

Each to their own, enjoy what you do for your own reasons whether you want to stick to traditional arts or mix it up with all kinds. I personally train in Tang Soo Do, Kenpo and Kick Boxing and I have trained in taijitsu, juijitsu, MT, TKD etc over the years, does that make me an MMAist or simply a guy that just likes to train in martial arts?

Do what you enjoy, respect other peoples decisions and do not disrespect them because they don't train like you do and remember the one piece of advice that has always stuck with me and kept me humble, there is always someone out there better than you.

Everyone in MMA/UFC practices Bjj. Its standard, because if you don't know it, you're going to lose, badly.

In the recent season of The Ultimate Fighter, Chris Holdsworth, primarily a Bjj stylist, defeated everyone with Bjj submissions and won the tournament. Why? Because his adversaries on the show didn't know wtf they were doing once they hit the ground, and Holdsworth sent them to dreamland.

 

[lklawson]

Thought I would add this. In my state, according to the law, breaking and entering is considered a Forcible felony. Under Our Castle doctrine we can use deadly force on forcible felonies. Accordingly we get more then occasional reports of burglars getting Shot by homeowners and homeowners not getting charged. Moral of the story don't break in to peoples homes, when they are home, in my area.

I agree that most implementations of Castle Doctrine presuppose the justification of Deadly Force. That's why I repeatedly mentioned it as a mitigating element.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[RTKDCMB]

No, its because the Bjj guy didn't perform typical Bjj movements that you see a Bjj stylist perform in certain situations. The lack of Guards, the lack of sweeps, the lack of transitions, the lack of passing defense, etc. I would expect a Bjj stylist at instructor level to have those attributes while in a grappling match. Frankly, I would expect that out of a blue belt.

No, its because the Karate guy didn't perform typical Karate movements that you see a Karate stylist perform in certain situations. The lack of blocks, the lack of kicks, the lack of combinations, the lack of takedown defense, etc. I would expect a Karate stylist at instructor level to have those attributes while in a sparring match. Frankly, I would expect that out of a blue belt.

You see what happens when you replace BJJ with a random TMA and a few words from your argument? You get the same response from a TMA when you see that TMA getting beaten by BJJ but apparently in your world when a BJJ stylist gets beaten by a TMA its because he was ineffective and when its the other way around its the TMA itself that's ineffective. Go figure.

 

[lklawson]

It's an art with so much subtlety and nuance. Slight small movements. Watching a real good Aikidoka will look like they aren't even trying or doing anything. But they are, it's just fast and subtle. This is why I like it. YMMV.

That's part of the issue. If the difference between a technique working or not working is a very slight, small, subtle movement, then the technique (or class of techniques) is not what's commonly referred to as "high percentage." A punch, kick, arm bar, or collar choke can all still work relatively well even if performed with little subtlety or if the Tori has to "muscle" his way through it. That's part of why they're "high percentage" techniques.

I should also add that while a really talented and well trained Aikidoka can often "force" a fight into the 5% area where he has specialized, the more training, experience, and talent his opponent has, particularly in "high percentage" techniques, the less said Aikidoka will be able to force the fight into his area of expertise.

It can be good stuff, but learn basic arithmetic first.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Spinedoc]

That's part of the issue. If the difference between a technique working or not working is a very slight, small, subtle movement, then the technique (or class of techniques) is not what's commonly referred to as "high percentage." A punch, kick, arm bar, or collar choke can all still work relatively well even if performed with little subtlety or if the Tori has to "muscle" his way through it. That's part of why they're "high percentage" techniques.

I should also add that while a really talented and well trained Aikidoka can often "force" a fight into the 5% area where he has specialized, the more training, experience, and talent his opponent has, particularly in "high percentage" techniques, the less said Aikidoka will be able to force the fight into his area of expertise.

It can be good stuff, but learn basic arithmetic first.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Kirk, I actually agree with you. I grew up boxing, took TKD, then did a martial art mix in the military. You have to know how to strike as well. (I also even wrestled for 2 years as a teen..ooops didn't put that in my bio).

Aikido appeals to me because of the subtlety...the nuance. Real aikido fights likely have much more atemi than what we see in demonstrations. That doesn't mean Aikido is worthless, rather that the application (like almost every other art) is variable.

The biggest problem with aikido as I see it, is that it takes so long to become good at it.

Mike

 

[lklawson]

Boxing is about the opposite, nearly all blows, some holds, and pretty much no throws. (I'm sticking with modern boxing, not pre-Marquis of Queensberry rules).

<grumble>And here I got all excited for a moment. </grumble>



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[TFP]

Those are some good vids. I think I've posted the Krav vs BJJ vid before. But it is becoming more and more clear to me that when you ask these questions, "who have they really fought", etc that you arnt really looking for answers and examples. I have posted two long posts full of videos in this thread, one with BJJ being used as a self defense art in the street and then this recent one showing who the Gracue actually fought in the Gracie Challenges. And both got no response to any of the videos and techniques used in them.

 

[lklawson]

Also interesting these noble martial artist decided to defend there arts honor by challenging this actor to a fight....... Guess they didn't hear of this Gracie challenge.:wink1:

Maybe it wasn't so much about "defending their art's honor" and they were pissed off with Seagull (old joke) and didn't have any particular beef with Gracie?

I know that if I were pissed off with Steve I wouldn't go punch someone else hoping that would shut Steve up.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[TFP]

If this was true how come the Israeli Defence Force teach Krav to their troops? How come the Russians teach Sambo or Systema to theirs? How come none of the World's military forces have taken on BJJ exclusively to train their Special forces? Wouldn't the military guys want the best for their troops?
:asian:

This is a great question and in notice you put the disclaimer in there of "exclusively". Smart move as you know that BJJ is being implemented into most of these branches you mentioned. I would assume because BJJ isn't the only or best art for fighting multiple attackers or a war zone.

 

[lklawson]

Gracie JiuJitsu (I really hate mis-spelling that word...)

It's not misspelling, it's the late 19th Century/early 20th Century standard romanization. I know you get grumpy about the jutsu/jitsu inversion but even noted native Japanese instructors, when writing in english, used the romanization "jiu-jitsu/ju-jitsu" in their books. Tani & Miyake, 1906? Yamanaka, 1918? Plenty of other examples too. And because GJJ was developed from jiu-do (see what I did there? right around that time you could argue that it's an anachronistic spelling, but not a misspelling.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

That doesn't mean Aikido is worthless

Didn't say that it was. However, I do think that a lot of folks practicing it don't have a background to really know when, where, or how to actually apply the Aikido system.

The biggest problem with aikido as I see it, is that it takes so long to become good at it.

I, honestly, don't see that as a "problem" with Aikido. I see it as a problem for people misunderstanding what Aikido is and when/where/how it shines. I find the statement somewhat analogous to "The biggest problem with Advanced Statistical Analysis 301 is how long it takes K12 kids to learn it." Well duh. There's a whole ton of prerequisite skills that must be learned before someone can apply the comparatively small subset of what Aikido is.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Mauthos]

Everyone in MMA/UFC practices Bjj. Its standard, because if you don't know it, you're going to lose, badly.

In the recent season of The Ultimate Fighter, Chris Holdsworth, primarily a Bjj stylist, defeated everyone with Bjj submissions and won the tournament. Why? Because his adversaries on the show didn't know wtf they were doing once they hit the ground, and Holdsworth sent them to dreamland.

I honestly don't know if you missed the point or if I wasn't clear. I agree that pretty much every UFC fighter will have a base in BJJ these days, that was sort of my point, that there are no true 1 style fighters within the majority of MMA anymore.

My point was that, by looking at the stats for last year, wins by submission or by KO/TKO were pretty much equal, therefore proving that both strikers and grapplers are still finding success within the realms of UFC at least. And therefore a mix of both styles is obviously working.

However, I cannot agree that guys who do not know BJJ are going to lose badly in the UFC as how did BJJ help the guys win by KO/TKO? Are you seriously expecting me to believe that the 58 fights ending in KO/TKO last year were only possible due to their bjj? I am sure you will tell me that it was their background in bjj that enabled them to prevent a takedown in order to get the KO, but then in all honesty wouldn't their opponent, the ones that were Ko'd also be trained in bjj and therefore, by your logic, been able to prevent the KO by using their bjj? A quandary if ever there was one.

Maybe I am mistaken, but can't you see that the reason why there are great fights in the UFC ending in both KO victories or submission victories is due to the fact that pretty much all the fighters these days have crossed trained in a variety of MAs? And not just bjj, MT, wrestling or kick boxing. Machida for example claims shotokan as his main martial art and therefore surely that doesn't fit your stereotype. Then someone like Rich Franklin also doesn't meet your stereotype, he has stated that his first interest in martial arts was by learning submission fighting via video tapes. He then took up bjj and MT and therefore he himself has said in the past that he believes he mainly has a base in grappling and this would surely mean he would win all of his fights by way of bjj techniques when in actuality he has only 5 wins by submission but 20 by way of KO.

It goes to show that within the sports world of MMA, to succeed you need to have a well rounded skillset comprising from several different styles. 1 style will just not cut it anymore and one style is definitely not better than the others.

 

[Spinedoc]

Didn't say that it was. However, I do think that a lot of folks practicing it don't have a background to really know when, where, or how to actually apply the Aikido system.

I, honestly, don't see that as a "problem" with Aikido. I see it as a problem for people misunderstanding what Aikido is and when/where/how it shines. I find the statement somewhat analogous to "The biggest problem with Advanced Statistical Analysis 301 is how long it takes K12 kids to learn it." Well duh. There's a whole ton of prerequisite skills that must be learned before someone can apply the comparatively small subset of what Aikido is.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Completely agree with this. I didn't mean it as a problem per se, but rather the thing that people see as a weakness. Personally, it's one of its strengths.

 

[TFP]

i

hmm, perhaps you should go back a bit, then... The comment was made that no-one from a range of backgrounds, including ninjutsu, had "stepped up to the challenge". I pointed out some who had, and you came back with "he won by submission!!!", going on to point out the stats on how many successes came in that form. I pointed out that that didn't mean anything about the validity/dominance of bjj, as japanese arts are based in grappling/locking/pinning methods (where do you think the brazilians got them from, hmm?), they were just being applied in that instance on the ground. That said, it also didn't mean anything with regards to there being ground fighting (as seen in bjj) in ninjutsu... As there isn't any. If a bjj practitioner is a naturally skilled striker, and keeps knocking people out with a jab, does that mean there is boxing in bj

again your missing it, my post had nothing to do with bjj! It had to do with you saying "no ground in ninjutsu".

oh, and for the record, ground fighting in a competitive environment (say, an mma match) where it's allowed, is fine, and far from useless... It's less of a benefit to what we do, though, and is thoroughly besides any point for our traditional material. You really need to understand that there is no "one context fits all" in martial arts... Just because something works in a competition doesn't mean anything other than it works in that competition format.
this makes sense, but the fact they won and did so using grappling in this one-on-one no rules fight says something to grapplings effectiveness.


bluntly, yes. It was called the "ultimate fighting championship" so that gracie jiujitsu (i really hate mis-spelling that word...) would be called the "ultimate" martial art, and royce could be called the "ultimate" fighter. It was only meant to be a one off, it was set up by the gracies, the environment was far more generous/beneficial to the grapplers than the strikers, the opponents were selected (in part at least) by the gracies, there was an award presentation with a cheque to helio in the middle of the damn thing! The gracies wanted publicity (their other big strength besides ground work is their marketing, kirk is right, it was genius) for the schools they were setting up in la, so they brought their challenge matches/vale tudo concepts to the us in the form of a pay-per-view. And, really, let's not forget that the entire design of the thing was pretty much matching what the gracies were already quite experienced in, while most, if not all, of the other competitors were really going in blind. There is little more the gracies could have done to stack things in their favour, really. It was an ad. A violent one, but just an ad.

no, whomever won the event would be called the ultimate fighter and there art would represent the top art of those involved. It wasn't a pre determined fact that royce would win.

Yes the gracie's and art davies picked the fighters, and many of the fighters had previous nhb fights. There were not many "gimmies" that night. Most were legit tough guys. And no, the area and rules (there were non) did not favor the grappler, not at all.



i could hand a bjj blackbelt their *** pretty damn easily, you realise... If we restrict it to striking, or weapons.. Or tennis. The idea that other martial arts black belts couldn't beat a bjj guy or a gracie in a challenge set up by the bjj guy/gracie, following the rules of the bjj/gracie guy, who had most likely prepared (at least mentally for the idea of issuing the challenge), whereas the "challengee" would have it come up out of the blue, means that they aren't "a real black belt" in that art is ludicrous.
most the challenges were no rules fights. I do agree a grappling contest vs the gracie's was a no win for any art that didn't really gave submission base. Take mark schultz (one of the greatest, meanest american wrestlers) and his match with rickson. Both grapplers, they decided no strikes, subs only. Well schultz took rickson down and held him in a cradle for 20 minutes before getting triangle choked. This happened twice and was considered a victory for rickson. Never mind that schultz really didn't know any submission or finishing moves (his art of wrestling had been watered down do to it becoming a sport) or the fact that under the rule set of his art he had "pinned" rickson.
But again, most fights were no rules.



let me ask you, do you know what a black belt, or really, any rank in an art means? It means you've gotten to a particular level of understanding and skill within that art itself... Nothing to do with anything outside of it. Hell, let's have some fun... I'm not an iai black belt, but if you find yourself here, i'll have a sword, you have your bjj, and we'll see what happens, yeah? Oh, but if i win, then it means that bjj is useless, and shouldn't be trained by anyone... Right? Seriously, you really, really, really need to get the idea of "different contexts and different needs/requirements for different arts". Bjj's context and approach is not the only one... In fact, it's not one that particularly impresses me, as i found it completely useless for my personal ideal of martial arts. Their skills are impressive, but i really don't care about the context it's for. But hey, that's just me.
lets not forget that all martial arts a (or almost all) come from a combat base. So you in context it's rooted in fighting. And in no rules one on one matches bjj is extremely successful. Like it or not. Now in the gracie's mind if you're saying your martial art is not meant for combat or self defense than no problem, but if your selling it, teaching it as a great way to learn to defend yourself than they would say ours is better and we will prove it.


see above. Different contexts. A judo blackbelt should be very skilled at throwing in judo competition. A bjj blackbelt should be very good at controlling and dominating on the ground. A tkd blackbelt should be avery skilled kicker. A kendo blackbelt should be good at engaging in a match with shinai. A classical martial artist at blackbelt level (or similar) should have good, demonstable knowledge of their system... Which might have little to do with modern competition, or even fighting.
yup i totally get that and am fine with it. If an art isn't claiming to be the best fighting art and is just practiced for fun or exercise, or whatever, great for that art and it's practitioners!! But if an instructor is making it out that his art is the best fighting art and it ain't bjj than i may have an issue.

no, it set out to establish the gracie name. It ignored completely the realities of the other arts themselves, and ignored what (and how) they were designed to work.

Here's a little clue for you. Not all martial arts are even designed with the idea of a skilled opponent in mind.
again, this challenge (gracie & ufc) was to establish who's art was most effective in a fighting sense. If people don't view there art as a fighting or self defense art than gjj had no beef with them and they had nothing to prove.

are we talking about the whole benny the jet thing again? Where they issued challenges where he wouldn't see them, including taking out a full page ad in a hollywood entertainment magazine claiming he was too scared to fight them? Really? Gene, who they wanted to fight someone two decades younger than he was? These were genuine, realistic challenges? No, they were ways to try to push their name up.
the gene challenge i agree on and already posted in this thread that it was great he responded by calling out helio who was closer to his age. The jet challenge was real.




lots of people have beaten the gracies, lists have been provided (and re-posted). In fact, it could be easily said that mma has beaten the gracies... At a seminar with royce gracie that i attended a few years back, he was asked about mma... His reply was that he doesn't think anything of it. To him, it means you can't do anything well enough, so you have to do a bit of this, a bit of that, and hope you have enough breadth to your approach that the lack of depth doesn't adversely affect your success. But the simple fact is that he, and other bjj-only persons, aren't in it anymore. Bjj can be beaten by mma... Or by anything else. The gracies themselves? Well, like (almost) anyone, they've been beaten in their time too... So?
yes the gracie's have been beat, i don't think i've ever said otherwise. Asking for examples was in response to being asked " who did they even beat". I'm mostly talking about style vs style match ups pre or early ufc. Almost every single name on that list was post style vs style.

I agree 100% that mma is better than bjj. For sure and that gjj paved the way for mixed arts and that mixed arts is better than gjj. 100%!!!

 

[TFP]

Just have to add if BJJ is supposedly the be all and end all as has been suggested, then if we take the UFC as a benchmark as such, then why are the statistics for last year (2012) fairly equal for wins by KO/TKO or submission (in fact it is slightly higher for KO/TKO). (58 to 46 if you don't want to read the linked article).

Please refer to this link: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/7/17/3163315/ufc-2012-fight-statistics-ufc-stats for details.

To me all this has proved, as Chris has said that each art/style whether TMA or MMA work for each individual and for what they want to get out of it. MMA has moved on so far from UFC 1 that it would be highly unlikely to see a successful fighter that was only purely trained in one art say BJJ or Tang Soo Do for example.

It has to be stated that people, in my opinion, train and compete for their own reasons, if you love to strike, you are more than likely going to be training in a striking art and competing in competitions that are striking based, this does not make you better than the grapplers out there, but it also doesn't make you worse or flawed in some way because you don't train the way they do.

Each to their own, enjoy what you do for your own reasons whether you want to stick to traditional arts or mix it up with all kinds. I personally train in Tang Soo Do, Kenpo and Kick Boxing and I have trained in taijitsu, juijitsu, MT, TKD etc over the years, does that make me an MMAist or simply a guy that just likes to train in martial arts?

Do what you enjoy, respect other peoples decisions and do not disrespect them because they don't train like you do and remember the one piece of advice that has always stuck with me and kept me humble, there is always someone out there better than you.

I don't believe anyone is trying to say BJJ is the ultimate art for the new age UFC/MMA fights. Not at all, GJJ and the early UFC's showed the world you needed to cross train in grappling arts to be successful. That standing arts alone we're not enough. But there is an issue when a standing art refuses to recognize the importance of grappling but still wants to act like there art is superior.you YOU NEED TO KNOW SOME TYPE OF GRAPPLING, OFFENSIVELY OR DEFENSIVELY TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL SELF DEFENSE/FIGHTING ART
I think that is the point and the arguement.

 

[TFP]

No, its because the Bjj guy didn't perform typical Bjj movements that you see a Bjj stylist perform in certain situations. The lack of Guards, the lack of sweeps, the lack of transitions, the lack of passing defense, etc. I would expect a Bjj stylist at instructor level to have those attributes while in a grappling match. Frankly, I would expect that out of a blue belt.

to me the glaring weakness beyond all those that you listed is the grappling fighters lack of interest in grip/hand fighting. He never ever looked to establish dominance in the grip fighting and this you will learn early on in grappling is paramount.

was fun to see the locks and throws in on a semi resistant opponent for sure!
+1 for Aikdo guys!

 

[TFP]

No, its because the Karate guy didn't perform typical Karate movements that you see a Karate stylist perform in certain situations. The lack of blocks, the lack of kicks, the lack of combinations, the lack of takedown defense, etc. I would expect a Karate stylist at instructor level to have those attributes while in a sparring match. Frankly, I would expect that out of a blue belt.

You see what happens when you replace BJJ with a random TMA and a few words from your argument? You get the same response from a TMA when you see that TMA getting beaten by BJJ but apparently in your world when a BJJ stylist gets beaten by a TMA its because he was ineffective and when its the other way around its the TMA itself that's ineffective. Go figure.

Touche'

 

[TFP]

Maybe it wasn't so much about "defending their art's honor" and they were pissed off with Seagull (old joke) and didn't have any particular beef with Gracie?

I know that if I were pissed off with Steve I wouldn't go punch someone else hoping that would shut Steve up.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

But why were they upset with Segal? Because he was making false claims about there arts effectiveness, correct?

 

[TFP]

And just so I don't come off as some GJJ/BJJ fan boy, here are some of my gripes with the art and family in no particular order........

they were a family of bullies not displaying "the martial way".
early on they would storm unsuspecting dojo's and act as if it was a challenge match
they would incorporate other styles into there system acting as if it was always or is now a part of GJJ.
GJJ/ BJJ lack of takedowns most pointedly wrestling.
as a BJJ fighter if you run up against a better striker you can't takedown your in trouble.
there stuborness and lack of respect for those who beat them.