hmm, perhaps you should go back a bit, then... The comment was made that no-one from a range of backgrounds, including ninjutsu, had "stepped up to the challenge". I pointed out some who had, and you came back with "he won by submission!!!", going on to point out the stats on how many successes came in that form. I pointed out that that didn't mean anything about the validity/dominance of bjj, as japanese arts are based in grappling/locking/pinning methods (where do you think the brazilians got them from, hmm?), they were just being applied in that instance on the ground. That said, it also didn't mean anything with regards to there being ground fighting (as seen in bjj) in ninjutsu... As there isn't any. If a bjj practitioner is a naturally skilled striker, and keeps knocking people out with a jab, does that mean there is boxing in bj
again your missing it, my post had nothing to do with bjj! It had to do with you saying "no ground in ninjutsu".
oh, and for the record, ground fighting in a competitive environment (say, an mma match) where it's allowed, is fine, and far from useless... It's less of a benefit to what we do, though, and is thoroughly besides any point for our traditional material. You really need to understand that there is no "one context fits all" in martial arts... Just because something works in a competition doesn't mean anything other than it works in that competition format.
this makes sense, but the fact they won and did so using grappling in this one-on-one no rules fight says something to grapplings effectiveness.
bluntly, yes. It was called the "ultimate fighting championship" so that gracie jiujitsu (i really hate mis-spelling that word...) would be called the "ultimate" martial art, and royce could be called the "ultimate" fighter. It was only meant to be a one off, it was set up by the gracies, the environment was far more generous/beneficial to the grapplers than the strikers, the opponents were selected (in part at least) by the gracies, there was an award presentation with a cheque to helio in the middle of the damn thing! The gracies wanted publicity (their other big strength besides ground work is their marketing, kirk is right, it was genius) for the schools they were setting up in la, so they brought their challenge matches/vale tudo concepts to the us in the form of a pay-per-view. And, really, let's not forget that the entire design of the thing was pretty much matching what the gracies were already quite experienced in, while most, if not all, of the other competitors were really going in blind. There is little more the gracies could have done to stack things in their favour, really. It was an ad. A violent one, but just an ad.
no, whomever won the event would be called the ultimate fighter and there art would represent the top art of those involved. It wasn't a pre determined fact that royce would win.
Yes the gracie's and art davies picked the fighters, and many of the fighters had previous nhb fights. There were not many "gimmies" that night. Most were legit tough guys. And no, the area and rules (there were non) did not favor the grappler, not at all.
i could hand a bjj blackbelt their *** pretty damn easily, you realise... If we restrict it to striking, or weapons.. Or tennis. The idea that other martial arts black belts couldn't beat a bjj guy or a gracie in a challenge set up by the bjj guy/gracie, following the rules of the bjj/gracie guy, who had most likely prepared (at least mentally for the idea of issuing the challenge), whereas the "challengee" would have it come up out of the blue, means that they aren't "a real black belt" in that art is ludicrous.
most the challenges were no rules fights. I do agree a grappling contest vs the gracie's was a no win for any art that didn't really gave submission base. Take mark schultz (one of the greatest, meanest american wrestlers) and his match with rickson. Both grapplers, they decided no strikes, subs only. Well schultz took rickson down and held him in a cradle for 20 minutes before getting triangle choked. This happened twice and was considered a victory for rickson. Never mind that schultz really didn't know any submission or finishing moves (his art of wrestling had been watered down do to it becoming a sport) or the fact that under the rule set of his art he had "pinned" rickson.
But again, most fights were no rules.
let me ask you, do you know what a black belt, or really, any rank in an art means? It means you've gotten to a particular level of understanding and skill within that art itself... Nothing to do with anything outside of it. Hell, let's have some fun... I'm not an iai black belt, but if you find yourself here, i'll have a sword, you have your bjj, and we'll see what happens, yeah? Oh, but if i win, then it means that bjj is useless, and shouldn't be trained by anyone... Right? Seriously, you really, really, really need to get the idea of "different contexts and different needs/requirements for different arts". Bjj's context and approach is not the only one... In fact, it's not one that particularly impresses me, as i found it completely useless for my personal ideal of martial arts. Their skills are impressive, but i really don't care about the context it's for. But hey, that's just me.
lets not forget that all martial arts a (or almost all) come from a combat base. So you in context it's rooted in fighting. And in no rules one on one matches bjj is extremely successful. Like it or not. Now in the gracie's mind if you're saying your martial art is not meant for combat or self defense than no problem, but if your selling it, teaching it as a great way to learn to defend yourself than they would say ours is better and we will prove it.
see above. Different contexts. A judo blackbelt should be very skilled at throwing in judo competition. A bjj blackbelt should be very good at controlling and dominating on the ground. A tkd blackbelt should be avery skilled kicker. A kendo blackbelt should be good at engaging in a match with shinai. A classical martial artist at blackbelt level (or similar) should have good, demonstable knowledge of their system... Which might have little to do with modern competition, or even fighting.
yup i totally get that and am fine with it. If an art isn't claiming to be the best fighting art and is just practiced for fun or exercise, or whatever, great for that art and it's practitioners!! But if an instructor is making it out that his art is the best fighting art and it ain't bjj than i may have an issue.
no, it set out to establish the gracie name. It ignored completely the realities of the other arts themselves, and ignored what (and how) they were designed to work.
Here's a little clue for you. Not all martial arts are even designed with the idea of a skilled opponent in mind.
again, this challenge (gracie & ufc) was to establish who's art was most effective in a fighting sense. If people don't view there art as a fighting or self defense art than gjj had no beef with them and they had nothing to prove.
are we talking about the whole benny the jet thing again? Where they issued challenges where he wouldn't see them, including taking out a full page ad in a hollywood entertainment magazine claiming he was too scared to fight them? Really? Gene, who they wanted to fight someone two decades younger than he was? These were genuine, realistic challenges? No, they were ways to try to push their name up.
the gene challenge i agree on and already posted in this thread that it was great he responded by calling out helio who was closer to his age. The jet challenge was real.
lots of people have beaten the gracies, lists have been provided (and re-posted). In fact, it could be easily said that mma has beaten the gracies... At a seminar with royce gracie that i attended a few years back, he was asked about mma... His reply was that he doesn't think anything of it. To him, it means you can't do anything well enough, so you have to do a bit of this, a bit of that, and hope you have enough breadth to your approach that the lack of depth doesn't adversely affect your success. But the simple fact is that he, and other bjj-only persons, aren't in it anymore. Bjj can be beaten by mma... Or by anything else. The gracies themselves? Well, like (almost) anyone, they've been beaten in their time too... So?
yes the gracie's have been beat, i don't think i've ever said otherwise. Asking for examples was in response to being asked " who did they even beat". I'm mostly talking about style vs style match ups pre or early ufc. Almost every single name on that list was post style vs style.
I agree 100% that mma is better than bjj. For sure and that gjj paved the way for mixed arts and that mixed arts is better than gjj. 100%!!!
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