Sport And TMA....Again

[K-man]

Ain't life a *****?

This thread is all over the place anyway so I feel comfortable having a rant about the 'starring' of my expression. I could talk all day about roots and rooting (I'll leave it up to you to look up the colloquial use) and I could kick anyone's fanny. But after all that I can't call life a female dog. God I wish you people could learn the English language!

End of rant! Back to topic!

 

[K-man]

Guys, BJJ is doing just fine in Australia and in Europe. John Will, one of the first 12 non-brazilian black belts in BJJ, has several thriving schools in Australia and he is very active within the martial arts (not just BJJ) community. There are lots of great schools in Australia.

Same for Europe. The European open is a HUGE IBJJF event and elite athletes from all over Europe compete.

If you say so.

 

[Steve]

If you say so.

LOL. So, I post 4 paragraphs on the actual topic at hand, and not one response. I post two sentences on BJJ and get a smart *** comment. This thread is hopeless.

 

[TFP]

Guys, BJJ is doing just fine in Australia and in Europe. John Will, one of the first 12 non-brazilian black belts in BJJ, has several thriving schools in Australia and he is very active within the martial arts (not just BJJ) community. There are lots of great schools in Australia.

Same for Europe. The European open is a HUGE IBJJF event and elite athletes from all over Europe compete.

Well doing fine is subjective. It's nothing compared to North American BJJ, and in the context of saying maybe BJJ really hasn't made a big splash in Israel yet, I think it's fair to say it hasn't really exploded in Australia or even Europe for that extent. Yes it's coming along, but the "dirty dozen" weren't really going but 10-15yrs ago.

 

[Steve]

Well doing fine is subjective. It's nothing compared to North American BJJ, and in the context of saying maybe BJJ really hasn't made a big splash in Israel yet, I think it's fair to say it hasn't really exploded in Australia or even Europe for that extent. Yes it's coming along, but the "dirty dozen" weren't really going but 10-15yrs ago.

Everything is relative. The implication is that BJJ is not all that popular. BJJ in particular (distinguishing from MMA) is very popular, throughout the world. Is it popular with everyone? Of course not. Is it better than any other art? That's subjective. Certainly better for SOME people, not for others. Is it failing to catch on? Perhaps in a particular town, but to say that it's not all that popular in Australia or not catching on in Europe is demonstrably false. There are terrific schools run by very high level black belts in all parts of the world, including Isreal.

But, all of the above aside, who gives a rip? What does it matter? Whether 10 people in the world trained in BJJ or 10 million, how is that relevant to the topic of the thread? What position is being furthered by a discussion of the relative popularity of BJJ that relates to the value of sport and competition in martial arts?

 

[jks9199]

Sport arts (or arts with a competitive element), such as some styles of Karate, BJJ, San Shou and the like, have what I believe is a distinct advantage over non-competitive arts. They train to the test. In other words, if you train for boxing, you ultimately get to box. If you train to wrestle, there is an avenue for you to compete in wrestling. The skills can translate, of course, but the context of the skills you're learning remains very clear and easy to understand.

Excellent point, and I agree completely. Most people who claim to train for self defense will never really put their training to the real test -- and I don't want them to have to! And this is why some silly things persist... I like how Rory Miller has put it: every training exercise has a flaw, especially when you're training for self defense purposes. They have to -- or you won't have playmates. Good training balances those flaws in different exercises, or with careful selection of flaws that are less likely to persist through to real application.

Non-competitive arts also have some advantages. The main one that comes to my mind is the lack of tunnel vision that can occur in a sport art. If well rounded skills is the goal, it can be detrimental to focus solely on the competition. This leads to tactics that are really only good for the ruleset. For example, pulling guard in BJJ or some of the tactics used in Olympic TKD.

It seems to me that introducing sport into an art is not the end of the world, and can really benefit the style. However, it's just as important to remain open minded, asking questions and training outside of the strict ruleset of the competition (ie, maybe upside down guard isn't a great idea for self defense. What if he has a knife? What if he has a friend? What would I do if this happens or that happens? )

And, if you choose not to train in an art with a competitive element (or even if you do) AND your goal is to be well rounded, I think that the occasional meeting with like minded martial artists from other styles would be very helpful. You think that your techniques will work against a competent grappler? Try it. Hook up with some grapplers and find out. Maybe make some friends in the process.

Bottom line, in my opinion, a middle ground is really the best way, IF your goal is to be a well rounded martial artist.

Now, I still don't think that it's possible for most people in today's society to become experts in self defense. It's just not. But, it's possible to learn skills that can help you, and the more well rounded one is as a martial artist, the better your chances in the remote chance you have to use them.

I think it's generally impossible for someone to become an expert in self defense because it so broad a topic and so dependent on the specifics. There are some commonalities across the field -- but lots of differences, too. A bouncer has different concerns that a cop, who has different concerns than a bodyguard, who faces different issues than a simple private person being attacked. Male and female can be radically different (consider that just about every self defense situation for a woman is likely to involve the equivalent of my nightmare opponent... who there's not a lot of chance I'll encounter. There just aren't that many guys out there that much bigger and stronger AND likely to attack me...). And so on... And, if you're not a special kind of stupid, you hopefully won't face enough opportunities to test yourself and distinguis "worked once" from "damn lucky it worked at all" from "works just about every time".... even if you're a cop -- cause if I KNOW I'm going to fight you, I'm stacking the odds and you won't have a chance to fight me.

 

[TFP]

But, all of the above aside, who gives a rip? What does it matter? Whether 10 people in the world trained in BJJ or 10 million, how is that relevant to the topic of the thread? What position is being furthered by a discussion of the relative popularity of BJJ that relates to the value of sport and competition in martial arts?

If you don't give a rip then why post about it? I surmised that maybe BJJ's lack of exposure in Israel is part of it being left out of there combat training. I fully stated it was just a theory in the post.

if you don't give a rip than don't give a rip!

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, you are right, yet you are still wrong. What Chris is saying is that after 5 to 6 years you have the expertise to teach juniors. I would go further and say after 5 to 6 years you should have enough technical ability to begin to teach adults the technical aspects of Aikido.

However, that aside, yes, you are certainly correct in stating that it takes a long time to become effective in Aikido. Then when you read back through your previous posts you will see where you bagged Aikido (and please don't ask me where because I'm not reading back through 150 posts ). You are contradicting yourself. Aikido gets a bum rap in discussions about the effectiveness of martial arts. You yourself canned it. Why? The answer is, even after many years of training many students can't apply the techniques in real life. The reasons for that are quite complex and I won't go down that burrow except to say Aikido is an internal art. It does not work if you use strength. A strong practitioner can use strength to make a technique work, but that to me is not Aikido.

So to summarise. Chris is right in what he said and you are right in what you said, but, sorry mate, you are still wrong. Aikidoka don't disagree. Ain't life a *****?

Well wouldn't that coincide with my argument that Bjj is easier to learn than Aikido? I would also argue that many old school Aikidoka say that most Aikido dojos are garbage these days, making it even harder for someone to learn "real" Aikido, and leading many to view Aikido as mainly a spiritual pursuit instead of a martial art.

i must confess, that Steven Segal randori is pretty fantastical (and hysterical).

 

[Steve]

If you don't give a rip then why post about it? I surmised that maybe BJJ's lack of exposure in Israel is part of it being left out of there combat training. I fully stated it was just a theory in the post.

if you don't give a rip than don't give a rip!

First, you didn't answer the questions. What does it matter? Whether 10 people in the world trained in BJJ or 10 million, how is that relevant to the topic of the thread? What position is being furthered by a discussion of the relative popularity of BJJ that relates to the value of sport and competition in martial arts?

Second, you are presuming that BJJ suffers from a lack of exposure in Isreal. I've seen no evidence that this is true.

 

[Steve]

Well wouldn't that coincide with my argument that Bjj is easier to learn than Aikido? I would also argue that many old school Aikidoka say that most Aikido dojos are garbage these days, making it even harder for someone to learn "real" Aikido, and leading many to view Aikido as mainly a spiritual pursuit instead of a martial art.

i must confess, that Steven Segal randori is pretty fantastical (and hysterical).

If you think BJJ is easier to learn than Aikido, why do you think that is? Is it because BJJ techniques are simpler to learn? Is it because of the competitive/sport aspect to BJJ training?

 

[Hanzou]

If you think BJJ is easier to learn than Aikido, why do you think that is? Is it because BJJ techniques are simpler to learn? Is it because of the competitive/sport aspect to BJJ training?

Because they're simpler, more practical, and allow a larger margin of error. However, the competitive aspect definitely plays a role, because you're forced into free sparring constantly. You spend time learning the technique, then you spend time applying the technique at full force.

 

[ballen0351]

LOL... sorry about this. Autocorrect got me last night. I meant who don't train in BJJ.

We wouldnt be if there were not some folks here telling us how much better BJJ is the the rest of the Martial Arts out there. You can understand why some people who have 20-30 or more years in one of these other arts may take exception to that.

Sport arts (or arts with a competitive element), such as some styles of Karate, BJJ, San Shou and the like, have what I believe is a distinct advantage over non-competitive arts. They train to the test. In other words, if you train for boxing, you ultimately get to box. If you train to wrestle, there is an avenue for you to compete in wrestling. The skills can translate, of course, but the context of the skills you're learning remains very clear and easy to understand.

True but does that testing translate in the real world? In some ways it does in others not so much. I guess some is better then nothing. There are also ways to test non-sport arts as well in training and sparing.

Non-competitive arts also have some advantages. The main one that comes to my mind is the lack of tunnel vision that can occur in a sport art. If well rounded skills is the goal, it can be detrimental to focus solely on the competition. This leads to tactics that are really only good for the ruleset. For example, pulling guard in BJJ or some of the tactics used in Olympic TKD.

I dont know if thats tunnel vision or more a case of the rules not being compatible with real life. The rules for BJJ make dropping into guard a good thing. When in real life it might not be.

It seems to me that introducing sport into an art is not the end of the world, and can really benefit the style. However, it's just as important to remain open minded, asking questions and training outside of the strict ruleset of the competition (ie, maybe upside down guard isn't a great idea for self defense. What if he has a knife? What if he has a friend? What would I do if this happens or that happens? )

The only time adding sport to an art is a bad thing is when it starts changing the art by adding rules and soon the art looks different then how it was invented. Judo and TKD come to mind. LIke I said before my Judo school teaches a bunch of stuff thats banned from comps but other schools that are more concerned about Comps dont bother teaching it. So its not Judo anymore in my opinion its just a part of Judo. BUT you also dont need a sport art to compete. There are plenty of Karate competitions and sparing that you can participate in.

And, if you choose not to train in an art with a competitive element (or even if you do) AND your goal is to be well rounded, I think that the occasional meeting with like minded martial artists from other styles would be very helpful. You think that your techniques will work against a competent grappler? Try it. Hook up with some grapplers and find out. Maybe make some friends in the process.

I think if your goal is to be well rounded then you need more then just a sport art. If all your training for is to win comps then your not well rounded. Thats very specific training with very specific rules.

Bottom line, in my opinion, a middle ground is really the best way, IF your goal is to be a well rounded martial artist.

MIddle ground between sport and non-sport?

Now, I still don't think that it's possible for most people in today's society to become experts in self defense. It's just not. But, it's possible to learn skills that can help you, and the more well rounded one is as a martial artist, the better your chances in the remote chance you have to use them.

whats an expert in your opinion? And why do you need to be one?

 

[Steve]

I'll post more about what I think expert means when I have a real keyboard. When it becomes important is when one presumes to teach. There are a lot of "self defense experts" who little to no practical experience who make their living teaching self defense . Like a golf pro who's never hit a ball outside the driving range.

Otherwise, I think you said pretty much what I said, but somehow made it sound as though you disagreed with me. Maybe I'm missing your point.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Hanzou]

MIddle ground between sport and non-sport?

Yes. Your Judo dojo would be a good example. Too much sport can be detrimental, but not enough sport can also be detrimental.

I also believe that Steve is right on point when he says that you end up utilizing what you train for in sport/competitive styles via tournaments and competitions. That aspect also forces the entire school to achieve a certain level of competency.

 

[Steve]

We wouldnt be if there were not some folks here telling us how much better BJJ is the the rest of the Martial Arts out there. You can understand why some people who have 20-30 or more years in one of these other arts may take exception to that.

Sure, but it takes two to tango, ballen.

True but does that testing translate in the real world? In some ways it does in others not so much. I guess some is better then nothing. There are also ways to test non-sport arts as well in training and sparing.

Sure. Something is better than nothing. The key to remember is that if you haven't used the skills and techniques for self defense, you don't know whether they will work... for you. A technique may be perfectly sound, but whether you can rely on it when the **** hits the fan has NOTHING to do with whether or not I can rely on it. The advantage that sport has over non-sport, IMO, is that I know I can execute certain techniques. Whether or not they are a good idea for self defense is a different matter.

I dont know if thats tunnel vision or more a case of the rules not being compatible with real life. The rules for BJJ make dropping into guard a good thing. When in real life it might not be.

The only time adding sport to an art is a bad thing is when it starts changing the art by adding rules and soon the art looks different then how it was invented. Judo and TKD come to mind. LIke I said before my Judo school teaches a bunch of stuff thats banned from comps but other schools that are more concerned about Comps dont bother teaching it. So its not Judo anymore in my opinion its just a part of Judo. BUT you also dont need a sport art to compete. There are plenty of Karate competitions and sparing that you can participate in.

The tunnel vision is only training within the ruleset. So, yeah. I think it's tunnel vision. Judo training, with a mind toward self defense is, I take it, practical training in your opinion.

As an aside, if a karate style has competitions... guess what? It's not a non-sport art with competitions. It's a sport art in exactly the same way BJJ and other traditional martial arts are "sport" arts.

I think if your goal is to be well rounded then you need more then just a sport art. If all your training for is to win comps then your not well rounded. Thats very specific training with very specific rules.

This is what I was referring to in my previous post. The way you say this makes it sound like it's contrary to what I said above. It's not. This is exactly the point I was making earlier.

MIddle ground between sport and non-sport?

Yeah. Hanzou touched on it.

 

[ballen0351]

Sure, but it takes two to tango, ballen.

That's the point of a forum to discuss things.

Sure. Something is better than nothing. The key to remember is that if you haven't used the skills and techniques for self defense, you don't know whether they will work... for you. A technique may be perfectly sound, but whether you can rely on it when the **** hits the fan has NOTHING to do with whether or not I can rely on it. The advantage that sport has over non-sport, IMO, is that I know I can execute certain techniques. Whether or not they are a good idea for self defense is a different matter.

No it means you can execute it in class or in a controlled environment. When the crap hits the fan. You have no clue what you will do. I've seen trained cops freeze up when things got real. Nobody has any idea what they will do when it comes down to it. When I was on SWAT I remember I was training a new guy that just finished SWAT school. We hit a house he was supposed to follow me and cover me. He never even picked up his gun. We cleared the house and he forgot his gun. He saidbhis mind went blank and he just followed me like I told him. So sport training means nothing in real life. The techniques might work fine but you might not.

The tunnel vision is only training within the ruleset. So, yeah. I think it's tunnel vision. Judo training, with a mind toward self defense is, I take it, practical training in your opinion.

As an aside, if a karate style has competitions... guess what? It's not a non-sport art with competitions. It's a sport art in exactly the same way BJJ and other traditional martial arts are "sport" arts.

Not at all. There are some arts that are spot based. There are some arts that are not spot based but guys get together to " play".

This is what I was referring to in my previous post. The way you say this makes it sound like it's contrary to what I said above. It's not. This is exactly the point I was making earlier.
Yeah. Hanzou touched on it.

 

[ballen0351]

Yes. Your Judo dojo would be a good example. Too much sport can be detrimental, but not enough sport can also be detrimental.

I also believe that Steve is right on point when he says that you end up utilizing what you train for in sport/competitive styles via tournaments and competitions. That aspect also forces the entire school to achieve a certain level of competency.

Na you don't need any sport. Sport can be fun but its not needed. And the only lvl of competency you achieve is set with the rules the competition governing body has set.

 

[Spinedoc]

I've seen trained cops freeze up when things got real.

I saw guys in the military do the same thing!!!

It's like, WTF? where is your honor? I won't say I was never scared, as that would be a BIG FAT lie, but courage is not the absence of fear, but rather overcoming your fear (shameless movie reference, but truth just the same). I was scared to death multiple times, but I would never, EVER, let my fellow marines and seamen down. I'd rather die.

But, yeah, I digress, the point is, you don't know how you will react to a real life or death situation until...well, yep, until you are in one.

 

[Steve]

That's the point of a forum to discuss things.

then accept responsibility and stop blaming other people. You're talking about bjj because you're choosing to do so. Don't blame Hanzou for it.

No it means you can execute it in class or in a controlled environment. When the crap hits the fan. You have no clue what you will do. I've seen trained cops freeze up when things got real. Nobody has any idea what they will do when it comes down to it. When I was on SWAT I remember I was training a new guy that just finished SWAT school. We hit a house he was supposed to follow me and cover me. He never even picked up his gun. We cleared the house and he forgot his gun. He saidbhis mind went blank and he just followed me like I told him. So sport training means nothing in real life. The techniques might work fine but you might not.

once again, you're saying this as though it isn't pretty much exactly my point.

Not at all. There are some arts that are spot based. There are some arts that are not spot based but guys get together to " play".

in your opinion. I disagree. I dint see any meaningful difference between kyokushin karate and bjj.

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[K-man]

LOL. So, I post 4 paragraphs on the actual topic at hand, and not one response. I post two sentences on BJJ and get a smart *** comment. This thread is hopeless.

Sorry Toots. I thought a little brevity might be appreciated. I have already said twice, BJJ is no big deal in Australia .. Fact.
I spoke of two dojos that closed in the past 6 months, one in the dojo where I train and one just around the corner from where I live. Both because they had too few students and where I train they even left without paying their rent. I wasn't going to post it again so I was just agreeing with you. And I agree with you also .... this thread is hopeless!

QUOTE=Steve
Sport arts (or arts with a competitive element), such as some styles of Karate, BJJ, San Shou and the like, have what I believe is a distinct advantage over non-competitive arts. They train to the test. In other words, if you train for boxing, you ultimately get to box. If you train to wrestle, there is an avenue for you to compete in wrestling. The skills can translate, of course, but the context of the skills you're learning remains very clear and easy to understand.

And I train to break peoples necks. I don't train to test.



Non-competitive arts also have some advantages. The main one that comes to my mind is the lack of tunnel vision that can occur in a sport art. If well rounded skills is the goal, it can be detrimental to focus solely on the competition. This leads to tactics that are really only good for the ruleset. For example, pulling guard in BJJ or some of the tactics used in Olympic TKD.

Are you suggesting that you get tunnel vision from sport sparring? Sorry, never experienced that even in tournaments where I suffered broken bones. Adrenalin was good though, I didn't feel a thing until afterwards. Seriously, we can be as intense as that in our training too.


It seems to me that introducing sport into an art is not the end of the world, and can really benefit the style. However, it's just as important to remain open minded, asking questions and training outside of the strict ruleset of the competition (ie, maybe upside down guard isn't a great idea for self defense. What if he has a knife? What if he has a friend? What would I do if this happens or that happens? )

It depends what you want from your martial art. I did the sport thing and if I had my time over I would not go that way again.


And, if you choose not to train in an art with a competitive element (or even if you do) AND your goal is to be well rounded, I think that the occasional meeting with like minded martial artists from other styles would be very helpful. You think that your techniques will work against a competent grappler? Try it. Hook up with some grapplers and find out. Maybe make some friends in the process.

So how does you art become rounded by ditching your best weapons?



Bottom line, in my opinion, a middle ground is really the best way, IF your goal is to be a well rounded martial artist.

And you are perfectly welcome to that opinion. For me it is not.



Now, I still don't think that it's possible for most people in today's society to become experts in self defense. It's just not. But, it's possible to learn skills that can help you, and the more well rounded one is as a martial artist, the better your chances in the remote chance you have to use them.

So I teach my guys the skills I believe will keep them safe, not only here but elsewhere in the world where there is more likelihood of violence. How does training them in techniques that the will likely never use on the street going to help them. Surely they are better off practising to use the skills inherent in their training.

Lets say I am a world class classical pianist (which I an not). I see there is a challenge to find the best piano player in the world so I decide to sign up. When they send me the information I find that the organiser has made it a condition of competition that you can't use the black keys. Now this guy actually developed a style of piano playing where you only use the white keys, so he has a bit of an advantage. Why would I want to continue with the competition? I can play my piano properly anywhere I like as it is and I don't have to worry about changing my whole method of playing.
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