Sport And TMA....Again

[Spinedoc]

No. There are several styles of Aikido that "spar." Of particular note is Tomiki Aikido which, due to the style's founder being a Judoka, instituted a competition system.

What I've found to be the problem with most people who have difficulty making Aikido "work" is that it's not really appropriate to what they are hoping to achieve at the moment. When I began Aikido, I was told that it is a "Masters art" and that it had been common in the beginning for masters of other arts to seek instruction in Aikido. It was also claimed that, early on, Ueshiba would only accept students who had experience in another martial art. I nearly broke my arm patting myself on the back for being smart enough to skip all that other stuff and get on straight to Aikido. The problem is that Aikido is about "blending energy" and high level "push pull" balance stuff. It represents maybe 5% of what might happen in a fight. A really talented and well trained Aikidoka can often force the fight into that 5% place, but it's not where it naturally "lives." The reason that Aikido is a "Masters art" is because Aikido is algebra to other art's basic arithmetic. Aikido is university level Creative Writing 201 to other art's basic High School grammar and spelling. If you don't already have a solid "base" in some pressure tested foundational system, it's going to be really hard (though not impossible by any means) to "make Aikido work." I've often heard that "high level Aikido strongly resembles high level Judo." That's because, at a certain level, Judoka get a really good feel for Uke's movement, distance, cadence, and balance, and can get kuzushi seemingly effortlessly; which is, basically, what Aikido is all about. The reason that Ueshiba had a preference for experienced martial artists was because he knew they already had the requisite "martial vocabulary" to make true use of his concepts and system.

Now, I know that all of my Aikido friends are going to disagree and will list various reasons why I'm wrong. That's OK. But this is coming from someone with experience in Aikido and other systems as well. I wish I'd done Judo before Aikido. A lot of Aikido would have made more sense sooner.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

No disagreement from me. Aikido is difficult to master.....Two Aikidoka I train with have been doing it for 8 and 9 years respectively. Neither is Shodan. Our Sensei has been training for 14 years.

It's an art with so much subtlety and nuance. Slight small movements. Watching a real good Aikidoka will look like they aren't even trying or doing anything. But they are, it's just fast and subtle. This is why I like it. YMMV.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Here is the Kata I was talking about.

Notice how he hangs his arm out to be thrown.

I think it's obvious that this is slow speed work. Otherwise, the separate block then arm wrap then takedown wouldn't occur. The block/arm wrap/takedown is a fairly standard counter to a forward stepping punch in lots of arts. What is shown in that video is a perfectly valid way to teach the technique.

 

[Kframe]

Ballen, I was talking about the paired kata that the Traditional Japanese arts do.

 

[Kframe]

I think it's obvious that this is slow speed work. Otherwise, the separate block then arm wrap then takedown wouldn't occur. The block/arm wrap/takedown is a fairly standard counter to a forward stepping punch in lots of arts. What is shown in that video is a perfectly valid way to teach the technique.

Im assuming you mean that the block/wrap/takedown would be one seamless movement, not broken up with a pause?

 

[TFP]

Oh come on there are plenty of guys running around claiming to be blackbelts that have questionable training history. Including in BJJ. I see it all the time on Bullshido Oh so an so opened a BJJ school he has no training or he sucks or look at this nonsense lets all go get him. Of course nobody ever does get him but they are out there. Also with the growth in popularity you will def start seeing BJJ Mc Dojos popping up. There is one near me that just opened with a Blue belt as the head teacher hes a TKD black belt but he teaches BJJ/MMA as a blue belt.

Interesting you ignored the list of names I mentioned.

They also tried to get Dennis Alexio (kickboxing) and Spinks (boxing) for UFC 1
Gerard Gordeau, a Dutch savateur, karateka, and mixed martial artist. He is the 1991 World Champion Savate and holder of the Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate title for 8 consecutive years

Here is a fight between a young/green Royce Gracie and a Kung Fu/Aikido Black Belt who was a legit fighter and went into a successful career in MMA, his name is Jason Delucia.



[yt]VN6PvPCrStI&feature[/yt]

Ken Shamrock was also the King Pancrase and a top Catch a wrestler of the time when he and Royce fought in UFC 1

 

[Dirty Dog]

Im assuming you mean that the block/wrap/takedown would be one seamless movement, not broken up with a pause?

Absolutely. When teaching or learning a new technique, it's helpful to slow it down and even to break it down into fragments.

An example. In this video, Kwonkicker breaks down the roundkick into 4 separate steps. But you certainly won't see 4 separate steps when the kick is executed at speed.

I've used that block/wrap/down you go technique on any number of people in the ER. It's very effective, but it certainly isn't done in steps, as it is in the video you've posted.

 

[K-man]

Using effectively and mastery are two different things. I could effectively use Bjj about 6 months into training. By the time I was a blue belt, I was pretty confident that I could do most of the stuff I was taught if in a situation. Most Bjj schools allow students to teach other students by Purple belt, and you can reach purple in about 5-6 years of practice.

What this guy is talking about is using Aikido period.

Would it be fair to say that the issue is lack of sparring in Aikido?

For me it was a little different. I had a bit of grappling skill before starting Aikido. It certainly took me more than a year to be able to begin using it effectively and it was about four years before I could make enough work to begin teaching it. That has absolutely nothing to do with sparring. We are testing it against full resistance constantly.

I have friends who have been studying Aikido for more than 10 years who can't make it work against resistance. That is not that Aikido doesn't work, I know it does. What it means is that the practitioner has not attained sufficient skill level to make it work. But then again, Ueshiba himself said aikido is 70% atemi and many Aikido schools don't teach atemi. Go figure! It is said that Aikido is the thinking martial artists martial art and that description had merit. The blog guy is used to his BJJ and if he is Yudansa in Aikido then I would say that he may well have wasted a number of years of training. Mastery in Aikido? About 30 to 40 years I'd reckon conservatively and only then if along your journey you have enjoyed top level instruction.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

What I've found to be the problem with most people who have difficulty making Aikido "work" is that it's not really appropriate to what they are hoping to achieve at the moment. When I began Aikido, I was told that it is a "Masters art" and that it had been common in the beginning for masters of other arts to seek instruction in Aikido. It was also claimed that, early on, Ueshiba would only accept students who had experience in another martial art. I nearly broke my arm patting myself on the back for being smart enough to skip all that other stuff and get on straight to Aikido. The problem is that Aikido is about "blending energy" and high level "push pull" balance stuff. It represents maybe 5% of what might happen in a fight. A really talented and well trained Aikidoka can often force the fight into that 5% place, but it's not where it naturally "lives." The reason that Aikido is a "Masters art" is because Aikido is algebra to other art's basic arithmetic. Aikido is university level Creative Writing 201 to other art's basic High School grammar and spelling. If you don't already have a solid "base" in some pressure tested foundational system, it's going to be really hard (though not impossible by any means) to "make Aikido work." I've often heard that "high level Aikido strongly resembles high level Judo." That's because, at a certain level, Judoka get a really good feel for Uke's movement, distance, cadence, and balance, and can get kuzushi seemingly effortlessly; which is, basically, what Aikido is all about. The reason that Ueshiba had a preference for experienced martial artists was because he knew they already had the requisite "martial vocabulary" to make true use of his concepts and system.

Now, I know that all of my Aikido friends are going to disagree and will list various reasons why I'm wrong. That's OK. But this is coming from someone with experience in Aikido and other systems as well. I wish I'd done Judo before Aikido. A lot of Aikido would have made more sense sooner.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I only read this after replying to Hanzou. It is gold!
:asian:

 

[jks9199]

but they did challenge a lot of top guys once moving to the stats. But many wouldn't step up to the challenge.

Gene Lebell
Benny the Jet
boztepe (who eventually sent one of his top students)
Schultz (wrestler)

some of these guys went to "spar" (Benny & Schultz), now Shultz was down for whatever, but Benny was not and would not step up to an official challenge.

to act like they did not attempt to fight legit comp is silly! They openly challenged all arts in open letters and adds in the top martial arts magazines of the time. You cannot discredit them because certain people would not fight them.

OK -- a lot of them had nothing to gain and a lot too lose. Let's look at Benny Urquidez... I can't find out exactly when it was, but I'll presume it was at the high point of Urquidez's fame. He's acting, he's a pro fighter... and he's supposed to take this challenge? What's he win? Is it worth the loss? Especially with the Gracies writing the rules? But then, accounts of who backed out seem to vary...

The Gracie Challenge was a great and well used bit of marketing. But it's not all that many have made it out to be. There's a fair bit of evidence it was never really a wide open $100,000 to beat a Gracie, for example. And they frequently insisted on rule sets or settings that greatly favored them...

 

[K-man]

Kman you mentioned that if you cant apply a aikido tech it is you that failed. My question is, can you expand on that? There is bound to be a time when you try to apply a tech, that you think is appropriate to that time and for what ever reason it fails. Say your opponent is REALLY strong and just uses his muscle to resist it. Your comment makes it sound as if you don't pull off any maneuver that you intended in that moment you are failure. I think there is a difference between a tech not working and being a failure.

I am not finding the right words for this, so I hope you can decipher my insanity and clear the water.

Your question is actually all embracing and can be answered in different ways. Any technique in any martial art can fail. That is not the fault of the technique or the style or necessarily the practitioner. However if a practitioner makes the observation that basically all the techniques don't work, I would suggest it is the practitioner at fault. An example is one that the blogger used. He used what we call ikkyo or first technique as an example of what doesn't work. Now I know it works because my teacher can make it work on me every time (and he is the only one who can). I can make it work on some people, not others. Now the blogger can't make it work, even as a black belt, so he blames the technique. Let's say at this stage it is not 100% effective for me either, again as a black belt. The difference is I know the technique does work but it is me that hasn't sufficient skill yet to make it work consistently.

Basically Aikido relies on circumventing your opponent's strength. Sometimes for one reason or other that may not be possible to do and complete a particular technique. If you continue with the technique and try to overcome your opponent's strength with your strength you might prevail or you might not. That physical scenario is not what Aikido is about. If we use an example of an arm bar where I have my opponent bent forward but resisting the takedown with strength, I have a several of options. I can try to bullock my way through, I can change my direction which might work or might still be physically stopped or I can allow my opponent to stand up which then puts him in perfect position to apply nikyo with very little effort. So my first technique failed but led straight into the second.

A lot of Aikido fails because the person tries to apply a particular technique. At a higher level, martial arts don't work that way. You work with what you are given, not what you think you should do. The skill is taking what ever is offered and turning it to your advantage without any great effort. So, if for example we are facing off and I determine I am going to use kote gaeshi then I am chasing you looking to apply a technique. I probably have a 1% chance of pulling that off even if it was appropriate. In this scenario you would say the technique failed. Slight change in scenario, as we are grappling I find my left hand grasping your right wrist, a slight turn and I have kote gaeshi with no effort and no delay. I just took the opportunity presented.

I'm still not sure I have answered your question.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Kata is normally done alone so I think your looking at the Bunkai but to answer your question
Practice, training, learning. No different then when learning to do say a triangle or Arm bar the training partner doesnt resist he allows the move to happen. When people are sparing you dont see that.

In karate kata is one person but in a number of arts the kata is two man and basically has the application in the kata, unlike karate. I'm pretty sure Kframe is referring to a Ninjutsu kata which is two man.
:asian:

 

[jks9199]

Kata is normally done alone so I think your looking at the Bunkai but to answer your question
Practice, training, learning. No different then when learning to do say a triangle or Arm bar the training partner doesnt resist he allows the move to happen. When people are sparing you dont see that.

I think kata is too broad a term to say it's normally done alone. In many traditional Japanese arts -- especially but not exclusively koryu arts -- kata is a paired exercise. There's apparently some argument that even the Okinawan forms were really meant as paired exercises that became solo drills when taken to Japan. I don't know about that... but I wouldn't be surprised.

And I'm going to use this as a chance to talk about methods again... Lots of people out there do drills, paired kata, or whatever you call it and never leave the beginner level. In the beginner level, you feed the person a softball of an attack, and they respond with the prescribed actions. But that's not really where you should stop. As the practice continues, the attacks should speed up, they should move out of that softball, and eventually, the person feeding the attack should be reversing or taking advantage of any errors by the receiver. Let me try to break that down a bit...

Let's say I have a new student walk in. After a class or a few classes on the basics, I introduce a functional technique sequence of evade/block/counter-strike. When I first introduce it, we walk it in the air with nobody in front of us. Then I feed him a slow, easy punch, exactly to where he expects it. As his competence and comfort grows (and this might take several lessons!), I speed things up. Instead of an easy jab that I leave hanging, I retract the punch. Maybe I step in deeper. Or I throw a kick instead of a punch. Maybe I add another punch if he doesn't really evade or blocks poorly. Or I hit him if he stands there after the technique is done... In time, that simple drill should look a lot like free sparring, and an outsider walking in may not even know we're not free sparring.

 

[Kframe]

Kman you answered a lot of my questions. Thanks!

 

[TFP]

These are all over YouTube, also the full Gracie in Action tapes are on YouTube, volumes 1 & 2.

Here is a fight between a young/green Royce Gracie and a Kung Fu/Aikido Black Belt who was a legit fighter and went into a successful career in MMA, his name is Jason Delucia.



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Scot Conway Kempo Karate BB under Sam Kuoha. He wrote an article in Black Belt Magazine in 1992.
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Wrestlers with submission skills
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for those saying the Gracies were the best who fought bums, they were respectful and were good judges of people's level. Here the same two two guys who came to except the challenge and found to be not qualified enough wound up fighting a 16yr old BB.
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TKD BB
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King of Pancrase and top Catch Wrestler Ken Shamorck
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Vs world champion wrestler
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[TFP]

OK -- a lot of them had nothing to gain and a lot too lose. Let's look at Benny Urquidez... I can't find out exactly when it was, but I'll presume it was at the high point of Urquidez's fame. He's acting, he's a pro fighter... and he's supposed to take this challenge? What's he win? Is it worth the loss? Especially with the Gracies writing the rules? But then, accounts of who backed out seem to vary...

The Gracie Challenge was a great and well used bit of marketing. But it's not all that many have made it out to be. There's a fair bit of evidence it was never really a wide open $100,000 to beat a Gracie, for example. And they frequently insisted on rule sets or settings that greatly favored them...

Well this is very convenient........ You ask for names, I give some of who they challenged and who said no, so how do the Gracies win with you?

I mean in one breath it's they didn't fight anyone good and then in the second breath it's good fighters had nothing to gain.

Simple fact is there are plenty of examples of the Gracies challenging everyone, plenty of examples of the Gracies beating BB after BB and little to no examples of anyone beating the Gracies. :hmmm:

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen, I was talking about the paired kata that the Traditional Japanese arts do.

Difference in terminology we don't call that Kata.

 

[ballen0351]

Interesting you ignored the list of names I mentioned.

They also tried to get Dennis Alexio (kickboxing) and Spinks (boxing) for UFC 1
Gerard Gordeau, a Dutch savateur, karateka, and mixed martial artist. He is the 1991 World Champion Savate and holder of the Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate title for 8 consecutive years

Here is a fight between a young/green Royce Gracie and a Kung Fu/Aikido Black Belt who was a legit fighter and went into a successful career in MMA, his name is Jason Delucia.



[yt]VN6PvPCrStI&feature[/yt]

Ken Shamrock was also the King Pancrase and a top Catch a wrestler of the time when he and Royce fought in UFC 1

I didn't ignore your list. Your list didn't answer my question. I didn't ask who refused the challenge I asked who took it.

 

[ballen0351]

little to no examples of anyone beating the Gracies. :hmmm:

I posted a list before of plenty of people that beat the Gracies

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well if they claim to be a black belt in an art and got there asses handed to them you would think the main players in that art would speak up if they were infact not a BB in that art.

If you were a master in an ar that had 30 000 students would you know what each one (or those pretending to be) was up to?

Why should a top martial artist in an art care if some random black belt decides to take what he has learned and take up a challenge that doesn't mean anything to them?

If they are sent to represent their art then sure but if they are only representing themselves and get the butts handed to them then its only their reputation on the line, not the art's. Your assuming the top players, as you call them,are even aware of the challenge at all let alone that its taking place with someone claiming to be a black belt in their art or even that its taking place at all.

And why oh why, in all things sane and reasonable, would the head of a style send an everyday run of the mill black belt to challenge the top martial artists of a style that is looking to discredit all other martial arts?

 

[Kframe]

Difference in terminology we don't call that Kata.

LOL I know, but just because someone says the word kata, does not mean that he/she is always talking about karate kata. TBH I guess I should specify what im talking about.