Sport And TMA....Again

[jks9199]

Well this is very convenient........ You ask for names, I give some of who they challenged and who said no, so how do the Gracies win with you?

I mean in one breath it's they didn't fight anyone good and then in the second breath it's good fighters had nothing to gain.

Simple fact is there are plenty of examples of the Gracies challenging everyone, plenty of examples of the Gracies beating BB after BB and little to no examples of anyone beating the Gracies. :hmmm:

You're reading selectively. The Gracies challenged plenty of folks -- but they also generally got to set a lot of the terms. I used Benny Urquidez as one example. There are mixed accounts of who backed out. But he had a lot to lose -- and damn little to win. Was it worth it for him to fight them, on their terms? The Gracies have marketed the hell out of BJJ. And they've seized every opportunity to promote it further. And I don't blame them! That's how they make their living! They've done a lot of good things along the way, too, including opening people's eyes to the ground. But they were never the only ones playing there, nor is BJJ the ultimate ground fighting approach. Nor is the ground where you want to be every time!

But here's the deal: The simple truth is that THERE IS NO ULTIMATE MARTIAL ART. (Though I may have to sleep with one eye open if Chiun comes looking for me for decrying Sinanju.) In the end, it comes down to the practitioner in question and their training. Styles don't win fights, fighters win fights. Nobody has said that the Gracies aren't good fighters. Nobody has said that BJJ doesn't have it's place in the pantheon of martial arts. But so do striking styles, stand up grappling styles, and more. You don't seem to get it when people say that; I don't know what it'll take to get you to understand the words.

 

[ballen0351]

LOL I know, but just because someone says the word kata, does not mean that he/she is always talking about karate kata. TBH I guess I should specify what im talking about.

Which is why I just try to use normal English on here too many styles

 

[jks9199]

Let me throw a comparison in here...

About 25 years or so ago, a group of about a dozen black belts challenged Steven Seagal because he'd run off at the mouth, and they took exception. The challengers included Bob Wall (who instigated the challenge), Bill Wallace, Allen Steen, and several others. (In their defense, I kind of suspect that some of pretty much just said "yep, I'd fight him" when Bob Wall asked...) Now, Seagal never took them up on the challenge. Why the hell would he? Best case -- he fights 12 guys who, while well known in MA circles, were pretty minor celebrities. He wins, and they look silly, and he's dropped to their level. But there's always the chance he gets hurt (even if he wins) or collects a few scars... and he was (at the time) pulling decent money and headlines as a star. And if he loses, to even one or two? There goes his credibility, huh? So the challenge was a win-win for the challengers, who got press, and got to "stand up for what's right" and a lose-lose for him.

Look -- like I said, BJJ is a really good ground fighting approach. They've done some good stuff in the Gracie Combatives program, too, and they responded and adapted to the shortcomings when they first trotted it out. But that doesn't make it some sort of ultimate art. There are three broad categories of fighting actions: blows (kicks, punches, elbows, etc), holds (chokes, locks, etc), and throws (which include trips, sweeps, takedowns and other ways of arranging a person to encounter the ground against their will). BJJ is mostly holds, with some throws, and a little bit of blows. Boxing is about the opposite, nearly all blows, some holds, and pretty much no throws. (I'm sticking with modern boxing, not pre-Marquis of Queensberry rules). Lots of other arts hit different balances. Hanzou, can you open your mind enough to accept the idea? I'm pretty confident several of us here on MT have more time training in the martial arts than you have walking the Earth. We've seen things come & go...

 

[TFP]

. Nobody has said that the Gracies aren't good fighters. Nobody has said that BJJ doesn't have it's place in the pantheon of martial arts. But so do striking styles, stand up grappling styles, and more. You don't seem to get it when people say that; I don't know what it'll take to get you to understand the words.

Can you give me some examples that show I don't think standup styles have a place in fighting arts? Because I know that as far as style vs style goes that BJJ is the best, dies not mean that I don't respect other arts, it just means that BJJ is the most dominant. With that said I fully understand BJJ as a whole has some serious flaws.

nor is BJJ the ultimate ground fighting approach

Now this I am curious about...... Please explain.

 

[TFP]

Let me throw a comparison in here...

About 25 years or so ago, a group of about a dozen black belts challenged Steven Seagal because he'd run off at the mouth, and they took exception. The challengers included Bob Wall (who instigated the challenge), Bill Wallace, Allen Steen, and several others. (In their defense, I kind of suspect that some of pretty much just said "yep, I'd fight him" when Bob Wall asked...) Now, Seagal never took them up on the challenge. Why the hell would he? Best case -- he fights 12 guys who, while well known in MA circles, were pretty minor celebrities. He wins, and they look silly, and he's dropped to their level. But there's always the chance he gets hurt (even if he wins) or collects a few scars... and he was (at the time) pulling decent money and headlines as a star. And if he loses, to even one or two? There goes his credibility, huh? So the challenge was a win-win for the challengers, who got press, and got to "stand up for what's right" and a lose-lose for him.

Or........... He was scared and knew his "art" would nit stand up and he had most likely never, ever, been in a real fight except when Lebbel choked his *** out for ****ing with stunt men.

Also interesting these noble martial artist decided to defend there arts honor by challenging this actor to a fight....... Guess they didn't hear of this Gracie challenge.:wink1:

 

[ballen0351]

Or........... He was scared and knew his "art" would nit stand up and he had most likely never, ever, been in a real fight except when Lebbel choked his *** out for ****ing with stunt men.

Yes Im sure thats what it was:bs1:

 

[K-man]

Because I know that as far as style vs style goes that BJJ is the best, dies not mean that I don't respect other arts, it just means that BJJ is the most dominant.

If this was true how come the Israeli Defence Force teach Krav to their troops? How come the Russians teach Sambo or Systema to theirs? How come none of the World's military forces have taken on BJJ exclusively to train their Special forces? Wouldn't the military guys want the best for their troops?
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

Because I know that as far as style vs style goes that BJJ is the best,

Except when they loose right?

 

[ballen0351]

d little to no examples of anyone beating the Gracies. :hmmm:

HMMMMMM
The following men beat a Gracie

Masahiko Kimura
Frank Shamrock
Melvin Manhoef
Akihiro Gono
Allan Goes
Kazuhiro Nakamura
Takanori Gomi
Carlos Newton
Shungo Oyama
Dan Henderson
Kiyoshi Tamura
Dustin Hezelett
Shungo Oyama
B.J. Penn
Matt Hughes
Harold Howard
Hideo Tokoro
Norifumi Yakamoto
Genki Sudo
Tokimitsu Ishizawa
Kazushi Sakuraba AKA the Gracie Hunter beat 4 different Gracies

 

[Spinedoc]

Or........... He was scared and knew his "art" would nit stand up and he had most likely never, ever, been in a real fight except when Lebbel choked his *** out for ****ing with stunt men.

Also interesting these noble martial artist decided to defend there arts honor by challenging this actor to a fight....... Guess they didn't hear of this Gracie challenge.:wink1:

As far as Aikido and BJJ.....thought you might enjoy this...

[video=youtube_share;0UwD4Y3dCpY]http://youtu.be/0UwD4Y3dCpY[/video]

Mike

 

[Hanzou]

As far as Aikido and BJJ.....thought you might enjoy this...

[video=youtube_share;0UwD4Y3dCpY]http://youtu.be/0UwD4Y3dCpY[/video]

Mike

That was a strange vid. I've never seen any Bjj practitioner fight like that, much less an instructor. :lol:

However, it was cool seeing some applicable Aikido outside of the typical demonstration stuff.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, can you open your mind enough to accept the idea? I'm pretty confident several of us here on MT have more time training in the martial arts than you have walking the Earth. We've seen things come & go...

As I've always stated, my issue is more with training methods than anything else. That Aikido vid that Spinedoc for example was very impressive, showcasing a nice mixing of Aikido locks with grappling. However, how many Aikido dojos train like that? My guess would be not many.

You could even make a nice competition-based Aikido style from what was shown in that vid.

Will that ever happen? Nope.

 

[ballen0351]

, how many Aikido dojos train like that? My guess would be not many.

.

How would you know? How many Aikido dojos have you been in?

 

[Hanzou]

How would you know? How many Aikido dojos have you been in?

Several, and none of them resembled what that guy was doing.

Then again, the Bjj guy didn't resemble any Bjj I've ever seen either.

 

[K-man]

As I've always stated, my issue is more with training methods than anything else. That Aikido vid that Spinedoc for example was very impressive, showcasing a nice mixing of Aikido locks with grappling. However, how many Aikido dojos train like that? My guess would be not many.

You could even make a nice competition-based Aikido style from what was shown in that vid.

Will that ever happen? Nope.

Six techniques and that was very impressive! That was plain normal! What do you think we do at training ... drink coffee all night? Every single one of those techniques are in our Goju as well, plus a whole lot more. You have no idea of what good schools teach so why be so surprised when someone demonstrates a small number of the techniques we regularly train?
:idunno:

 

[RTKDCMB]

That was a strange vid. I've never seen any Bjj practitioner fight like that, much less an instructor. :lol:

However, it was cool seeing some applicable Aikido outside of the typical demonstration stuff.

Oh but then he must have not been a real BJJ guy because he didn't own the other guy easily. No wait the Aikido guy must have done some BJJ because he was using ground fighting, or [insert any counter to the argument as to why a traditional martial art did not beat a BJJ stylist]

 

[ballen0351]

Several, and none of them resembled what that guy was doing.

Then again, the Bjj guy didn't resemble any Bjj I've ever seen either.

By being in a dojo I ment attended regularly and learned from. I'm not sure why ur so shocked by things in a style when you have zero experience in that style. You act like because you didn't see it in the 20 min you visited a school then it doesn't exist.

 

[Chris Parker]

I don't know how clearer to make it! It's written right in The post you quoted........ I didn't bring up the submissions wins to claim BJJ was used!!!!! Clearly it wouldn't of been BJJ since it was so early in the UFC's.

i brought it up to counter your claim of ground fighting not being part if Ninjutsu and your idea that you don't teach ground fighting because it isn't part if Ninjutsu.

you said Ninjutsu fighters did step up and show there skills, which they did. I was just pointing out that those Ninjutsu fighters were winning with ground fighting........ Something you see as somewhat useless.

Hmm, perhaps you should go back a bit, then... The comment was made that no-one from a range of backgrounds, including ninjutsu, had "stepped up to the challenge". I pointed out some who had, and you came back with "he won by SUBMISSION!!!", going on to point out the stats on how many successes came in that form. I pointed out that that didn't mean anything about the validity/dominance of BJJ, as Japanese arts are based in grappling/locking/pinning methods (where do you think the Brazilians got them from, hmm?), they were just being applied in that instance on the ground. That said, it also didn't mean anything with regards to there being ground fighting (as seen in BJJ) in Ninjutsu... as there isn't any. If a BJJ practitioner is a naturally skilled striker, and keeps knocking people out with a jab, does that mean there is boxing in BJJ?

Oh, and for the record, ground fighting in a competitive environment (say, an MMA match) where it's allowed, is fine, and far from useless... it's less of a benefit to what we do, though, and is thoroughly besides any point for our traditional material. You really need to understand that there is no "one context fits all" in martial arts... just because something works in a competition doesn't mean anything other than it works in that competition format.

publicity stunts, huh? More like an open challenge! There was nothing sneaky about it. A simple challenge to the status quo, and people stepped up to the challenge and results came from that.

Bluntly, yes. It was called the "Ultimate Fighting Championship" so that Gracie JiuJitsu (I really hate mis-spelling that word...) would be called the "Ultimate" martial art, and Royce could be called the "Ultimate" fighter. It was only meant to be a one off, it was set up by the Gracies, the environment was far more generous/beneficial to the grapplers than the strikers, the opponents were selected (in part at least) by the Gracies, there was an award presentation with a cheque to Helio in the middle of the damn thing! The Gracies wanted publicity (their other big strength besides ground work is their marketing, Kirk is right, it was genius) for the schools they were setting up in LA, so they brought their challenge matches/Vale Tudo concepts to the US in the form of a Pay-per-View. And, really, let's not forget that the entire design of the thing was pretty much matching what the Gracies were already quite experienced in, while most, if not all, of the other competitors were really going in blind. There is little more the Gracies could have done to stack things in their favour, really. It was an ad. A violent one, but just an ad.

Chances are if you can do a triangle choke during sparring or a competition, you have a higher chance of pulling it off in a self defense situation.

Higher chance, okay. Thing is, should you go for it at all? Honestly, it's quite an odd choice for any self defence situation, and would be one of the last things I'd suggest or rely on, as it keeps you on your back, with someone on top of you, tying up your limbs... not a good position to deliberately put yourself in.

Yes, but its a fantastic choke from Guard, and fairly easy to apply under pressure.

In competition, okay. Self defence? Far from advisable.

Using effectively and mastery are two different things. I could effectively use Bjj about 6 months into training. By the time I was a blue belt, I was pretty confident that I could do most of the stuff I was taught if in a situation. Most Bjj schools allow students to teach other students by Purple belt, and you can reach purple in about 5-6 years of practice.

What this guy is talking about is using Aikido period.

Would it be fair to say that the issue is lack of sparring in Aikido?

No, it's not fair to say that, many Aikido dojo do spar, just not in an MMA format. Tomiki/Shudokan Aikido is quite known for it, but most others have a form of training referred to as randori (not the same as Judo randori), which can be described as a form of sparring.

You're coming up against another of your poor interpretation of martial arts here, by the way. You're thinking a black belt in one art equals a black belt in another... and that's just simply not the case. For instance, you talk here about a purple belt being able to teach others, which is in about 5-6 years... it's not uncommon for that timing to be a shodan (black belt) in Aikido... so you're talking about potentially similar skill-sets in different arts. But that still doesn't mean the same skills, or the applicability in the same contexts. An Aikidoka with 5-6 years experience is probably also able to teach others... and is potentially a shodan....but hasn't trained for BJJ or MMA competition. Are you going to say that just because the context of both the training and intented application is different to yours, it's not valid? Seriously, get over yourself.

Well if they claim to be a black belt in an art and got there asses handed to them you would think the main players in that art would speak up if they were infact not a BB in that art.

I could hand a BJJ blackbelt their *** pretty damn easily, you realise... if we restrict it to striking, or weapons.. or tennis. The idea that other martial arts black belts couldn't beat a BJJ guy or a Gracie in a challenge set up by the BJJ guy/Gracie, following the rules of the BJJ/Gracie guy, who had most likely prepared (at least mentally for the idea of issuing the challenge), whereas the "challengee" would have it come up out of the blue, means that they aren't "a real black belt" in that art is ludicrous.

Let me ask you, do you know what a black belt, or really, any rank in an art means? It means you've gotten to a particular level of understanding and skill within that art itself... nothing to do with anything outside of it. Hell, let's have some fun... I'm not an Iai black belt, but if you find yourself here, I'll have a sword, you have your BJJ, and we'll see what happens, yeah? Oh, but if I win, then it means that BJJ is useless, and shouldn't be trained by anyone... right? Seriously, you really, really, really need to get the idea of "different contexts and different needs/requirements for different arts". BJJ's context and approach is not the only one... in fact, it's not one that particularly impresses me, as I found it completely useless for my personal ideal of martial arts. Their skills are impressive, but I really don't care about the context it's for. But hey, that's just me.

now to the second part, the "legit fighter" question..... For one, if you do indeed have a BB in a certain art that should imply that you are infact a "legit fighter". Or at least that is what it used to mean!!! Now if you do have a BB in an art and get your *** handed to you then that speaks volumes about that art, IMO. I can tell you this, most all BJJ BB are infact harasses and can defend themselves well, why? Because the Jiu-Jutsu community polices it's self very well! No McDojo ********.

See above. Different contexts. A Judo blackbelt should be very skilled at throwing in Judo competition. A BJJ blackbelt should be very good at controlling and dominating on the ground. A TKD blackbelt should be avery skilled kicker. A Kendo blackbelt should be good at engaging in a match with shinai. A classical martial artist at blackbelt level (or similar) should have good, demonstable knowledge of their system... which might have little to do with modern competition, or even fighting.

And this is what the Gracie Challenge set out to disprove, the legitimacy of the arts.

No, it set out to establish the Gracie name. It ignored completely the realities of the other arts themselves, and ignored what (and how) they were designed to work.

Here's a little clue for you. Not all martial arts are even designed with the idea of a skilled opponent in mind.

i have states before that I believe part of the reaso the Geaciea did so well is because they were all a family of trained fighters, unlike your normal __________ insert art here BB.

but they did challenge a lot of top guys once moving to the stats. But many wouldn't step up to the challenge.

Gene Lebell
Benny the Jet
boztepe (who eventually sent one of his top students)
Schultz (wrestler)

some of these guys went to "spar" (Benny & Schultz), now Shultz was down for whatever, but Benny was not and would not step up to an official challenge.

to act like they did not attempt to fight legit comp is silly! They openly challenged all arts in open letters and adds in the top martial arts magazines of the time. You cannot discredit them because certain people would not fight them.

Are we talking about the whole Benny The Jet thing again? Where they issued challenges where he wouldn't see them, including taking out a full page ad in a Hollywood entertainment magazine claiming he was too scared to fight them? Really? Gene, who they wanted to fight someone two decades younger than he was? These were genuine, realistic challenges? No, they were ways to try to push their name up.

Forgive me for reading too fast. I just noticed the bolded part, which I think bears particular attention. I listen, and granted, as is the case here, I don't always catch things the first time through. But I do read posts more than once and I go out of my way to not just read, but to understand what you mean.

What I don't do, necessarily, is agree with your opinions. If anyone fails to listen, it's you, Chris. You don't discuss anything. You don't debate or engage in conversation. Rather, you lecture and teach, and you confuse your opinions with fact. Overall, it makes conversation with you very tedious.

It wasn't just me, though, Steve. You were told repeatedly by many others. You were equating experience and expertise, when they don't actually necessarily correlate. You were given multiple examples and arguments, and you just kept coming back with "Yeah, but is it really possible? Really?" You didn't listen.

I was hoping someone would mention this. Chris parker, Im hoping you can help me here. I was on the Akban webpage and was watching some clips. In one of them the tori does a take down off of a punch that the attaker just left his arm out. The question is why do some of the kata have the attacker leaving there arms out. I see it in more then a few clips. I cant find the clip, ill keep searching, but why in so many kata do they leave there arms just hanging out?

I'm going to separate this out, and take it to the "Forms and their true value" thread, as that one desperately needs some things to be said, and I might use this to make some points. Here, it's just going to take us in yet another direction that should be covered elsewhere.

Well this is very convenient........ You ask for names, I give some of who they challenged and who said no, so how do the Gracies win with you?

I mean in one breath it's they didn't fight anyone good and then in the second breath it's good fighters had nothing to gain.

Simple fact is there are plenty of examples of the Gracies challenging everyone, plenty of examples of the Gracies beating BB after BB and little to no examples of anyone beating the Gracies. :hmmm:

Lots of people have beaten the Gracies, lists have been provided (and re-posted). In fact, it could be easily said that MMA has beaten the Gracies... at a seminar with Royce Gracie that I attended a few years back, he was asked about MMA... his reply was that he doesn't think anything of it. To him, it means you can't do anything well enough, so you have to do a bit of this, a bit of that, and hope you have enough breadth to your approach that the lack of depth doesn't adversely affect your success. But the simple fact is that he, and other BJJ-only persons, aren't in it anymore. BJJ can be beaten by MMA... or by anything else. The Gracies themselves? Well, like (almost) anyone, they've been beaten in their time too... so?

Can you give me some examples that show I don't think standup styles have a place in fighting arts? Because I know that as far as style vs style goes that BJJ is the best, dies not mean that I don't respect other arts, it just means that BJJ is the most dominant. With that said I fully understand BJJ as a whole has some serious flaws.

HA! Ah, that was funny.. no.

As I've always stated, my issue is more with training methods than anything else. That Aikido vid that Spinedoc for example was very impressive, showcasing a nice mixing of Aikido locks with grappling. However, how many Aikido dojos train like that? My guess would be not many.

You could even make a nice competition-based Aikido style from what was shown in that vid.

Will that ever happen? Nope.

You think Aikido is the techniques? Really? Oh, and competition Aikido exists... it's called Shudokan, or Tomiki Aikido. But, again, get out of your head that the single, tiny, relatively insignificant, low-risk, unimportant context of safe competition is anything like a litmus test that all arts must fit. It's a useless method for everything I do, for example, as it goes directly against what I teach and train. To do it would be to ignore or abandon everything I've actually trained to do.

Six techniques and that was very impressive! That was plain normal! What do you think we do at training ... drink coffee all night? Every single one of those techniques are in our Goju as well, plus a whole lot more. You have no idea of what good schools teach so why be so surprised when someone demonstrates a small number of the techniques we regularly train?
:idunno:

We have similar technical methods as well... but again, mechanics aren't what makes an art. What makes an art provides the mechanics, though...

 

[Mauthos]

Just have to add if BJJ is supposedly the be all and end all as has been suggested, then if we take the UFC as a benchmark as such, then why are the statistics for last year (2012) fairly equal for wins by KO/TKO or submission (in fact it is slightly higher for KO/TKO). (58 to 46 if you don't want to read the linked article).

Please refer to this link: http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/7/17/3163315/ufc-2012-fight-statistics-ufc-stats for details.

To me all this has proved, as Chris has said that each art/style whether TMA or MMA work for each individual and for what they want to get out of it. MMA has moved on so far from UFC 1 that it would be highly unlikely to see a successful fighter that was only purely trained in one art say BJJ or Tang Soo Do for example.

It has to be stated that people, in my opinion, train and compete for their own reasons, if you love to strike, you are more than likely going to be training in a striking art and competing in competitions that are striking based, this does not make you better than the grapplers out there, but it also doesn't make you worse or flawed in some way because you don't train the way they do.

Each to their own, enjoy what you do for your own reasons whether you want to stick to traditional arts or mix it up with all kinds. I personally train in Tang Soo Do, Kenpo and Kick Boxing and I have trained in taijitsu, juijitsu, MT, TKD etc over the years, does that make me an MMAist or simply a guy that just likes to train in martial arts?

Do what you enjoy, respect other peoples decisions and do not disrespect them because they don't train like you do and remember the one piece of advice that has always stuck with me and kept me humble, there is always someone out there better than you.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh but then he must have not been a real BJJ guy because he didn't own the other guy easily.

No, its because the Bjj guy didn't perform typical Bjj movements that you see a Bjj stylist perform in certain situations. The lack of Guards, the lack of sweeps, the lack of transitions, the lack of passing defense, etc. I would expect a Bjj stylist at instructor level to have those attributes while in a grappling match. Frankly, I would expect that out of a blue belt.

No wait the Aikido guy must have done some BJJ because he was using ground fighting, or [insert any counter to the argument as to why a traditional martial art did not beat a BJJ stylist]

Considering that behind both of them is a large sign that says Aiki-Jutsu, Brazilian Juijitsu, and Aikido......