Sport And TMA....Again

[ballen0351]

Just for the hell of it, I tried google but got no results, other than articles talking about the challenge, but no names as to who took it.

I can't either. I was looking for any legit fighters that took it an lost. Not guys from Duluth or reno that claimed to be black belts in different arts

 

[lklawson]

I can't either. I was looking for any legit fighters that took it an lost. Not guys from Duluth or reno that claimed to be black belts in different arts

What do you consider a "legitimate fighter?"

 

[ballen0351]

What do you consider a "legitimate fighter?"

I don't know. The Gracie's are the top of the BJJ game did they fight any in the top other arts. The best TKD guys thebest Judo guys or Okinawian karate guys . Back in the 50s some of the best and brightest Okinawian Karate guys in the modern area were in their prime where any of them challenged? All I see in these tapes are small dojo owners from So. Cal. With no real detail of who they are or even where they were trained

 

[Hanzou]

The question at hand now is the same as in the thread above. Can someone learn how to do something without ever actually doing it? Yes. Can someone become an expert? I believe not.

Chances are if you can do a triangle choke during sparring or a competition, you have a higher chance of pulling it off in a self defense situation.

 

[lklawson]

I don't know. The Gracie's are the top of the BJJ game did they fight any in the top other arts. The best TKD guys thebest Judo guys or Okinawian karate guys . Back in the 50s some of the best and brightest Okinawian Karate guys in the modern area were in their prime where any of them challenged? All I see in these tapes are small dojo owners from So. Cal. With no real detail of who they are or even where they were trained

OK, I'm not trying to be a wanker here, I'm just trying to nail down a definition of what counts as a "legitimate fighter." I'm getting kinda a mish-mash mix of various "Sport Fighters" (such as Judoka) and high level TMA guys. What counts? Is it people with a verifiable "sport fighting" record such as Golden Glove boxers or Judoka? Is it guys with a history of going out and picking "street fights" in order to "test out" their stuff (which was, apparently also common in Judo at one time). Is it LEO or CO? I mean, really, what counts?

Again, not to be a wang, but it's kinda sounding like "the definition of porn."

As to the issue of only local guys showing up, well... um... What else would you expect? I have a friend who's making a name for his crew in WMA and Irish MA, following a sort of home-grown "alive testing" development of stick fighting. He's of Irish extraction and his "Family System" is, essentially, just bashing each other with sticks and, over time, finding out what seems to work and what doesn't. His style looks a little like a cross between Jo-Jutsu (when held at one end), Hutton's "Great Stick," and some of the FMA 5' stick material. It's all well and good and seems to work well, at least for them. But some years back the gent issued, literally, a World Wide Challenge for Stick Fighting Champion. Being, essentially, a nobody at that time, well, nobody showed up except for his crew and a few locals who were interested in cross-testing against other material. When he later on issued a statement about who had taken the title, he was, well, politely, it was met with some skepticism. Back when the Gracies were doing these challenges (they still are, ims) who would be willing to fly from New York, for instance, just to take some apparent blow-hard up on his "come fight me" challenge? Heck, you still occasionally see some blow-hard issue a "come fight me" challenge on some forums and they get exactly the same response; laughter. So, honestly, why would anyone, much less a "legitimate fighter," work up much effort to travel any respectable distance to take the Gracie Challenge? No one on the national stage even cared until UFC 1. Whether UFC 1 was "a work," a "marketing stunt," or an honest style-vs-style test, it was, undeniably, pure genius. Suddenly people who weren't local to a Gracie academy actually cared about the Gracie Challenge but now they had the UFC as a venue to "test" and the motivation for making the effort was money (the Purse).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

Here I can agree. You do need experience to use Aikido effectively. But even here the similarity with BJJ jumps out. It takes roughly 10 years to master BJJ, as in black belt, and I would suggest it is at least the same for Aikido.

Using effectively and mastery are two different things. I could effectively use Bjj about 6 months into training. By the time I was a blue belt, I was pretty confident that I could do most of the stuff I was taught if in a situation. Most Bjj schools allow students to teach other students by Purple belt, and you can reach purple in about 5-6 years of practice.

What this guy is talking about is using Aikido period.

Would it be fair to say that the issue is lack of sparring in Aikido?

 

[TFP]

I can't either. I was looking for any legit fighters that took it an lost. Not guys from Duluth or reno that claimed to be black belts in different arts

Well if they claim to be a black belt in an art and got there asses handed to them you would think the main players in that art would speak up if they were infact not a BB in that art.

now to the second part, the "legit fighter" question..... For one, if you do indeed have a BB in a certain art that should imply that you are infact a "legit fighter". Or at least that is what it used to mean!!! Now if you do have a BB in an art and get your *** handed to you then that speaks volumes about that art, IMO. I can tell you this, most all BJJ BB are infact harasses and can defend themselves well, why? Because the Jiu-Jutsu community polices it's self very well! No McDojo ********.

And this is what the Gracie Challenge set out to disprove, the legitimacy of the arts.


i have states before that I believe part of the reaso the Geaciea did so well is because they were all a family of trained fighters, unlike your normal __________ insert art here BB.

but they did challenge a lot of top guys once moving to the stats. But many wouldn't step up to the challenge.

Gene Lebell
Benny the Jet
boztepe (who eventually sent one of his top students)
Schultz (wrestler)

some of these guys went to "spar" (Benny & Schultz), now Shultz was down for whatever, but Benny was not and would not step up to an official challenge.

to act like they did not attempt to fight legit comp is silly! They openly challenged all arts in open letters and adds in the top martial arts magazines of the time. You cannot discredit them because certain people would not fight them.

 

[Steve]

Well, I have "done it for real"... but that's not the point. We've covered this before, mate, and you simply wouldn't listen to anything you were told. But, to try to cover it quickly, scenario training and drilling, proper understanding of reality and actual violence, a good frame of reference and ability to differentiate good from questionable, being able to understand the context you're training for (and sticking to that), and so on.

Forgive me for reading too fast. I just noticed the bolded part, which I think bears particular attention. I listen, and granted, as is the case here, I don't always catch things the first time through. But I do read posts more than once and I go out of my way to not just read, but to understand what you mean.

What I don't do, necessarily, is agree with your opinions. If anyone fails to listen, it's you, Chris. You don't discuss anything. You don't debate or engage in conversation. Rather, you lecture and teach, and you confuse your opinions with fact. Overall, it makes conversation with you very tedious.

 

[lklawson]

Would it be fair to say that the issue is lack of sparring in Aikido?

No. There are several styles of Aikido that "spar." Of particular note is Tomiki Aikido which, due to the style's founder being a Judoka, instituted a competition system.

What I've found to be the problem with most people who have difficulty making Aikido "work" is that it's not really appropriate to what they are hoping to achieve at the moment. When I began Aikido, I was told that it is a "Masters art" and that it had been common in the beginning for masters of other arts to seek instruction in Aikido. It was also claimed that, early on, Ueshiba would only accept students who had experience in another martial art. I nearly broke my arm patting myself on the back for being smart enough to skip all that other stuff and get on straight to Aikido. The problem is that Aikido is about "blending energy" and high level "push pull" balance stuff. It represents maybe 5% of what might happen in a fight. A really talented and well trained Aikidoka can often force the fight into that 5% place, but it's not where it naturally "lives." The reason that Aikido is a "Masters art" is because Aikido is algebra to other art's basic arithmetic. Aikido is university level Creative Writing 201 to other art's basic High School grammar and spelling. If you don't already have a solid "base" in some pressure tested foundational system, it's going to be really hard (though not impossible by any means) to "make Aikido work." I've often heard that "high level Aikido strongly resembles high level Judo." That's because, at a certain level, Judoka get a really good feel for Uke's movement, distance, cadence, and balance, and can get kuzushi seemingly effortlessly; which is, basically, what Aikido is all about. The reason that Ueshiba had a preference for experienced martial artists was because he knew they already had the requisite "martial vocabulary" to make true use of his concepts and system.

Now, I know that all of my Aikido friends are going to disagree and will list various reasons why I'm wrong. That's OK. But this is coming from someone with experience in Aikido and other systems as well. I wish I'd done Judo before Aikido. A lot of Aikido would have made more sense sooner.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

I don't know. The Gracie's are the top of the BJJ game did they fight any in the top other arts. The best TKD guys thebest Judo guys or Okinawian karate guys . Back in the 50s some of the best and brightest Okinawian Karate guys in the modern area were in their prime where any of them challenged? All I see in these tapes are small dojo owners from So. Cal. With no real detail of who they are or even where they were trained

Challenge fights were big at that time. Helio Gracie engaged in many well publicized fights that you can find with a little google-fu. Here's a quick link to some: http://cjjusa.com/helio-graciesome-of-his-fight-stories/

Following Helio, Carlson Gracie was taking on all challengers. After Carlson Gracie, it was Rickson and then Royce. Most of them engaged in NHB/Vale Tudo matches, but if you google these guys you'll find plenty of accounts of matches against boxers and martial artists of all kinds. Fun to read, if you're into those things.

Also, if you're interested in a one stop, comprehensive account of the history of BJJ, there's nothing better than Slideyfoot's blog: http://www.slideyfoot.com/1982/06/history-of-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-bjj.html

 

[Steve]

Chances are if you can do a triangle choke during sparring or a competition, you have a higher chance of pulling it off in a self defense situation.

Hanzou, I agree. But remember that this pre-supposes that you want to be able to do a triangle choke in a self defense situation. Pulling off the triangle choke in a competition won't help you avoid a take down. It won't help you with your striking.

 

[Kframe]

I don't disagree at all.

While it's a simple fact of statistics that more of them are interested in "just" stealing your stuff and not particularly interested in hurting you, it's not like the ones that are willing to do both wear a sign or anything. The legal problems start when you assume the one and don't have an appropriate legal standing, such as Castle Doctrine or a threat that passes the Reasonable Man sniff nest, to use Deadly Force.

Now, while it's generally true that LEO are given a wider birth on that aforementioned Reasonable Man sniff test, it's still simple not right, nor legal, to run immediately to Deadly Force. Which is why I'm glad that he clarified that it wasn't his actual position after all.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Thought I would add this. In my state, according to the law, breaking and entering is considered a Forcible felony. Under Our Castle doctrine we can use deadly force on forcible felonies. Accordingly we get more then occasional reports of burglars getting Shot by homeowners and homeowners not getting charged. Moral of the story don't break in to peoples homes, when they are home, in my area.

 

[Kframe]

Kman you mentioned that if you cant apply a aikido tech it is you that failed. My question is, can you expand on that? There is bound to be a time when you try to apply a tech, that you think is appropriate to that time and for what ever reason it fails. Say your opponent is REALLY strong and just uses his muscle to resist it. Your comment makes it sound as if you don't pull off any maneuver that you intended in that moment you are failure. I think there is a difference between a tech not working and being a failure.

I am not finding the right words for this, so I hope you can decipher my insanity and clear the water.

 

[ballen0351]

OK, I'm not trying to be a wanker here, I'm just trying to nail down a definition of what counts as a "legitimate fighter." I'm getting kinda a mish-mash mix of various "Sport Fighters" (such as Judoka) and high level TMA guys. What counts? Is it people with a verifiable "sport fighting" record such as Golden Glove boxers or Judoka? Is it guys with a history of going out and picking "street fights" in order to "test out" their stuff (which was, apparently also common in Judo at one time). Is it LEO or CO? I mean, really, what counts?

Like I said the Gracies are considered the upper level of BJJ. Did they ever fight upper level guys in other arts. I dont know about other arts but in my art back in the 40s, 50s and 60s guys like Morio Higaonna, Eiichi Miyazato, Hirokazu Kanazawa ect were alive and kicking (pun intended). These challenges keep getting shown as "proof" that BJJ is the greatest since sliced bread maybe they should have challenged top level competition of other arts? And again maybe they did I dont know much about the Gracie challenge matches which is why I asked the question

 

[ballen0351]

Well if they claim to be a black belt in an art and got there asses handed to them you would think the main players in that art would speak up if they were infact not a BB in that art.

now to the second part, the "legit fighter" question..... For one, if you do indeed have a BB in a certain art that should imply that you are infact a "legit fighter". Or at least that is what it used to mean!!! Now if you do have a BB in an art and get your *** handed to you then that speaks volumes about that art, IMO. I can tell you this, most all BJJ BB are infact harasses and can defend themselves well, why? Because the Jiu-Jutsu community polices it's self very well! No McDojo ********.

And this is what the Gracie Challenge set out to disprove, the legitimacy of the arts.


i have states before that I believe part of the reaso the Geaciea did so well is because they were all a family of trained fighters, unlike your normal __________ insert art here BB.

but they did challenge a lot of top guys once moving to the stats. But many wouldn't step up to the challenge.

Gene Lebell
Benny the Jet
boztepe (who eventually sent one of his top students)
Schultz (wrestler)

some of these guys went to "spar" (Benny & Schultz), now Shultz was down for whatever, but Benny was not and would not step up to an official challenge.

to act like they did not attempt to fight legit comp is silly! They openly challenged all arts in open letters and adds in the top martial arts magazines of the time. You cannot discredit them because certain people would not fight them.

Oh come on there are plenty of guys running around claiming to be blackbelts that have questionable training history. Including in BJJ. I see it all the time on Bullshido Oh so an so opened a BJJ school he has no training or he sucks or look at this nonsense lets all go get him. Of course nobody ever does get him but they are out there. Also with the growth in popularity you will def start seeing BJJ Mc Dojos popping up. There is one near me that just opened with a Blue belt as the head teacher hes a TKD black belt but he teaches BJJ/MMA as a blue belt.

 

[Kframe]

You're probably right Chris. The thing is, and again, I can only speak for what I have personally seen, but for something that's supposedly been done for centuries, there're a lot of people that must not have received that message, as I've seen more than my share of static statues, you know, people that stand there, holding their arm out, while the defender blasts away with 10+ moves. Hell, I see it in Kenpo, an art that I've trained in for 20+yrs. Sad, I know, but it's true.

I was hoping someone would mention this. Chris parker, Im hoping you can help me here. I was on the Akban webpage and was watching some clips. In one of them the tori does a take down off of a punch that the attaker just left his arm out. The question is why do some of the kata have the attacker leaving there arms out. I see it in more then a few clips. I cant find the clip, ill keep searching, but why in so many kata do they leave there arms just hanging out?

 

[ballen0351]

I was hoping someone would mention this. Chris parker, Im hoping you can help me here. I was on the Akban webpage and was watching some clips. In one of them the tori does a take down off of a punch that the attaker just left his arm out. The question is why do some of the kata have the attacker leaving there arms out. I see it in more then a few clips. I cant find the clip, ill keep searching, but why in so many kata do they leave there arms just hanging out?

Kata is normally done alone so I think your looking at the Bunkai but to answer your question
Practice, training, learning. No different then when learning to do say a triangle or Arm bar the training partner doesnt resist he allows the move to happen. When people are sparing you dont see that.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, I agree. But remember that this pre-supposes that you want to be able to do a triangle choke in a self defense situation. Pulling off the triangle choke in a competition won't help you avoid a take down. It won't help you with your striking.

Yes, but its a fantastic choke from Guard, and fairly easy to apply under pressure.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh come on there are plenty of guys running around claiming to be blackbelts that have questionable training history. Including in BJJ. I see it all the time on Bullshido Oh so an so opened a BJJ school he has no training or he sucks or look at this nonsense lets all go get him. Of course nobody ever does get him but they are out there. Also with the growth in popularity you will def start seeing BJJ Mc Dojos popping up. There is one near me that just opened with a Blue belt as the head teacher hes a TKD black belt but he teaches BJJ/MMA as a blue belt.

The difference being that Bjj frauds tend to get exposed fairly quickly due to the nature of Bjj. If there are nearby Bjj schools, people will stop in to check out the new Bjj school on the block, and that almost always requires a roll. In our school for example, we had a Gracie barra guy stop by and roll with us because he was in town, and needed to keep himself sharp. All of the senior students and our head instructor was happy to roll with him. When he left, he left, he friended us all on Facebook and told us how awesome our school was.

There's also state and regional competitions to consider. If your school is Bjj and isn't participating in local, state, or regional competitions! people think something is up.

 

[Kframe]

Here is the Kata I was talking about.

Notice how he hangs his arm out to be thrown.