Sport And TMA....Again

[K-man]

Without getting involved in the debate...

UFC Rules

Section 15 defines fouls and includes:

Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea[/QUOTE

Sorry, I posted before I read your response.

 

[SENC-33]

Well yes, but I'd like to see individuals from more diverse disciplines enter the MMA arena. For example, one of those 15th dan Ninjutsu exponents from the Bujinkan, or an Aikido stylist. Someone from those arts doing well in the UFC would go a long towards legitimizing their art among a lot of people.

For some reason you can't seem to grasp that most people don't need their martial art, self defense system or whatever legitimized at all........If you study kung fu your entire life and never lay a finger on another human being are you somehow less of a martial artist? I don't think so......I don't work the door or bounce anymore but I do still work large events and personal security. I hope I never have to lay a hand on another person the rest of my life. I respect UFC guys for the athletes they are and I enjoy watching them compete for pennies while Dana White gets rich but it's nothing more to me than entertainment.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you study kung fu your entire life and never lay a finger on another human being ...

I assume when you say "another human being", you don't include your "training partners" because no MA can be trained "solo".

You have to "enjoy" fighting to be serious in MA training. Sometime I even feel like to pay someone $100 if that person is willing to spar/wrestle with me for 15 rounds. There is a very important element in MA training and that is "fun". When your opponent tried very hard to knock/take you down and failed, you will smile in your dreams for many nights. Even money won't be able to buy this kind of fun for you.

 

[TFP]

Nothing magical about an extreme strike to the throat. It CAN kill you period.....

Lol, the same with a punch to the back of the head or the side of the head, etc. it sure could kill you, but that's different than the " I know a guy who could kill you with one shot" B.S.

yes there are plenty of "dirty tactics" out there, and a lot work. But anyone can utilize them, they arnt magical moves only known to certain martial arts that are to dangerous to use.


hell, I've used a fish book to counter a ball grab while in the clinch up against a car.

 

[K-man]

What post #? I would like to watch the videos if you don't mind.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tCzdbyJnN_w

Ha, ok maybe not forever........ What is this "sport martial arts" you speak of? Did the Gracie's not fight on the streets and beaches of Brazil and in any and all dojo's they could before bringing the challenge to PPV?

there were literally NO RULES in the early UFC's. "Sport" my ***!!!!

That's exactly my point! Thank you for reinforcing it.

Agree with you 100% on this. In just 3 words, you have said everything that I have tried to say all these years. When "your fist meets your opponent's face", the word combat, self-defense, or sport will have no difference at all.

True, and the same when the point of the elbow strikes the spine ... just that that is not going to happen in sport.

There is no difference between "help someone to go to heaven" and "killing".

Yeah the first guy I learned how to fight from was a Vietnam Vet who was a "smoker" for a bar on the West Coast before joining..... And no, there are absolutely no magic "death" punches, sorry.

Actually there are, ( not magic) but let's not even bother with them at this time. Why the fixation on punches? The punches in karate and aikido are to me just a means of setting up your opponent for the more damaging techniques. I dispute the assumption that karate is a 'striking' art. It includes all aspects of fighting.

lol, didn't tap anyone out during a war huh!? We'll that settles it then....... Jeez you people are silly. You don't think anyone in those wars took prisoners using hand to hand combat ?

Yep, that makes sense ... I think.

 

[K-man]

I've known more than a few BJJ guys who have had "real, in the street" fights. One of my friends in Australia, famous for being one of the guys to answer the Yellow Bamboo challenge, has on two separate occasions, been assaulted "on the street." One instance this is a literal statement. Exited cars. He choked the attacker out and threw his car keys into the bushes.

If your criteria is "works in an 'actual' life threatening street encounter" then BJJ has already delivered. End of story.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

The truth is most martial arts will work in street fights. No one is questioning that. What gets me is the assertion that if you don't test your art in the sporting arena it is not as good as those who do.

 

[Hanzou]

For some reason you can't seem to grasp that most people don't need their martial art, self defense system or whatever legitimized at all........If you study kung fu your entire life and never lay a finger on another human being are you somehow less of a martial artist? I don't think so......I don't work the door or bounce anymore but I do still work large events and personal security. I hope I never have to lay a hand on another person the rest of my life. I respect UFC guys for the athletes they are and I enjoy watching them compete for pennies while Dana White gets rich but it's nothing more to me than entertainment.

Well its a bit more complex than that. See, there's people out there studying Bjj just for the art, and nothing more. The difference is that there are also people who are purposely seeking to fight in MMA who go to Bjj gyms, or seek out prominent Bjj instructors to train them for bouts. Those individuals also avoid arts like Aikido, Ninjutsu, etc.

I can definitely believe that there are Ninjutsu, Systema, and Aikido stylists that have no desire to ever enter an arena and test their skills. However, there has to be some other people from those same styles who think differently. I think the fact that the entire population who do these styles refuse to ever fight in a NHB arena speaks volumes.

 

[TFP]

The truth is most martial arts will work in street fights. No one is questioning that. What gets me is the assertion that if you don't test your art in the sporting arena it is not as good as those who do.

Hmm, that seems like 100% common sense to me. Testing your art is a way of knowing better if it truly works than say, not testing it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

True, and the same when the point of the elbow strikes the spine ... just that that is not going to happen in sport.

Even "sport guys" train "dirty tricks" too. It's used to deal with unfriendly challengers.

In the following clip, a teacher tried to teach his student how to hurt his opponent's wrist in a pure "sport" environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtctDUks-W4&feature=youtu.be

In the following clip, a teacher tried to teach his student how to smash his elbow on his opponent's face when striking is not allowed in a pure "sport wrestling" environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiPXWQfnfjE&feature=youtu.be

 

[Hanzou]

I have many striker friends. They don't mind to spar with me. When I asked them to wrestle with me, or include throwing in sparring by using Sanda/Sanshou rules, they all shied away. I believe that they might not like their body to hit to the ground. May be they don't have confidence in their "break fall". I assume if you can catch your opponent's kicking leg and sweep/hook his standing leg, the fall can be very uncomfortable.

http://imageshack.com/a/img15/2355/innerblock.jpg

That would be that comfort zone I discussed earlier. When I spar with friends who train in karate and other stand up styles, they dislike grappling and ground fighting. In more extreme examples, I've actually seen them freeze up, making for an easy take down or submission. Alternately, I can stall out and simply pin them, and they will flop around for several seconds tiring themselves out, making a choke or a submission easier to accomplish.

Pretty unsettling if you're depending on that to protect you in an altercation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That would be that comfort zone I discussed earlier. When I spar with friends who train in karate and other stand up styles, they dislike grappling and ground fighting. In more extreme examples, I've actually seen them freeze up, making for an easy take down or submission. Alternately, I can stall out and simply pin them, and they will flop around for several seconds tiring themselves out, making a choke or a submission easier to accomplish.

Pretty unsettling if you're depending on that to protect you in an altercation.

When I had my commercial school, I had people walked into my school and challenged me with boxing rules or kickboxing rules. Before they challenged me, they even stated clearly that no throwing were allowed (there were no MMA back then so the term "grappling" was not used). It was funny that the challenger set up his challenge rules.

 

[frank raud]

The Gracie challenges. The first UFCs. Gene Lebelle beating boxers with ground subs. Fusen Ryu defeating the Kodakan.

Fusen ryu defeating the Kodokan. That would be one man in Fusen ryu who figured out butt scooting would negate the throwing tehcniques of judo. Ever wonder why there are no grappling techniques at all in the existing lines of Fusen ryu? Maybe because the story aint what you think it is.

 

[Hanzou]

From memory you picked the video and it was not a great example of Systema training. The fact that you don't understand the principle they were training doesn't there is no principle and it isn't valid it isn't valid. And it doesn't have anything to do with speed. It is designed for a couple of things. Firstly Systema training is designed to make the practitioner comfortable if he goes to the ground and in that clip they are starting to experiment with angles and points that control body movement. How dare you say principles of another martial art don't work when you haven't the first bit of understanding of that system.

One of the principles of a Systema is that it is designed to work in chaos. It is designed to be effective against multiple attackers and the training in the first video and this one leads up to being on the ground with a number of attackers on their feet. For me to start posting Systema ground fighting videos would totally hijack the thread as Systema is neither sport nor TMA. A sport is conducted in a controlled environment with controlled conditions.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eyQny5Amv0E&desktop_uri=/watch?v=eyQny5Amv0E

I'm sorry K-man, but that video was actually worse than the videos I posted.

If you buy that as legit, more power to you. I simply don't see how you can consider that training when people aren't even making contact with each other to see if they have the necessary power and leverage to make that technique work.

How would you even be able to train those techniques at 100% or even 75% power without hurting your partner? You would have to actually hit your partner as hard as you can to generate the necessary force to knock a standing target flat on their back while you're on your knees.

 

[ballen0351]

I assume when you say "another human being", you don't include your "training partners" because no MA can be trained "solo".

You have to "enjoy" fighting to be serious in MA training. Sometime I even feel like to pay someone $100 if that person is willing to spar/wrestle with me for 15 rounds. There is a very important element in MA training and that is "fun". When your opponent tried very hard to knock/take you down and failed, you will smile in your dreams for many nights. Even money won't be able to buy this kind of fun for you.

1st sign me up $100 for 15 min Im in.


As to your "fun" and dreaming about it at night nonsense. Yeah well that's the language of a guy that's never been in a real life or death fight. Thsy are not fun its frighting as hell. And something you don't want to do again if you can help it.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm sorry K-man, but that video was actually worse than the videos I posted.

If you buy that as legit, more power to you. I simply don't see how you can consider that training when people aren't even making contact with each other to see if they have the necessary power and leverage to make that technique work.

How would you even be able to train those techniques at 100% or even 75% power without hurting your partner? You would have to actually hit your partner as hard as you can to generate the necessary force to knock a standing target flat on their back while you're on your knees.

Why do you need to go 100%? There are plenty of "UFC Evidence". Since that's all you guys seem to think is valid that a punch to the liver will drop you. I don't need to test it my self to know it works. I carry a gun with me at all times I don't need to shoot someone to know it works.

 

[Steve]

Why do you need to go 100%? There are plenty of "UFC Evidence". Since that's all you guys seem to think is valid that a punch to the liver will drop you. I don't need to test it my self to know it works. I carry a gun with me at all times I don't need to shoot someone to know it works.

Whether or not you can successfully mad reliably execute a technique has little to do with my ability to execute a technique.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[ballen0351]

When I had my commercial school, I had people walked into my school and challenged me with boxing rules or kickboxing rules. Before they challenged me, they even stated clearly that no throwing were allowed (there were no MMA back then so the term "grappling" was not used). It was funny that the challenger set up his challenge rules.

Where do you live? I've never seen that happen to anyone I know around here. Closest I've ever seen was a mutual fight between two guys that ran dojo's in same town. Thatbwasnt a challenge they just hates each other and got into a fight.

 

[ballen0351]

Whether or not you can successfully mad reliably execute a technique has little to do with my ability to execute a technique.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

If I can hit you at 50% I can hit you at 75% or 100%, I don't need to hit my training partners at 100% to know it works. Last night I had to arrest a friend and coworker. He became combative and I needed to strike him. I held back and hit him about 50% to give him a message. I could have hit him at 100% and hurt him but I didn't need to. Not every encounter requires full on destruction

 

[K-man]

In a one on one situation I could see a person choking somebody out then getting up and leaving but joint locks and arm bars in the street are a mythical joke unless you actually break the arm, elbow or what have you (most don't have the stomach) to do that. If somebody got me in an arm bar, I yell uncle and they let me go I would politely kick the person in the face.

Depends on the lock or hold you have in place. Most can transition into a takedown if you need to, then you have the normal options of stomping on the ankle etc.

 

[K-man]

Well its a bit more complex than that. See, there's people out there studying Bjj just for the art, and nothing more. The difference is that there are also people who are purposely seeking to fight in MMA who go to Bjj gyms, or seek out prominent Bjj instructors to train them for bouts. Those individuals also avoid arts like Aikido, Ninjutsu, etc.

I can definitely believe that there are Ninjutsu, Systema, and Aikido stylists that have no desire to ever enter an arena and test their skills. However, there has to be some other people from those same styles who think differently. I think the fact that the entire population who do these styles refuse to ever fight in a NHB arena speaks volumes.

What part of your brain is missing? If people want to compete they train a style that enables them to compete. If they have no desire to compete they can train what ever takes their interest. So of course people who are "purposely seeking to fight in MMA" go to Bjj gyms, or seek out prominent Bjj instructors to train them for bouts. That is a no brainer.

Now that there are very few legal NHB arenas doesn't mean anything. Those early bouts were really disasters waiting to happen. Had there been a fatality or crippling injury the curtain would have come down. The truth is the organisers changed to rules to allow MMA to flourish and expand.

So I call you again for art bashing!