Six Harmonies in Wing Chun

[Xue Sheng]

I probably should have known this was in Wing Chun, since I have been in CMA for over 390 years, abnd I have dealt with this before in Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji...but I simply did not know it was part of Wing Chun too..

The Six Harmonies – A Path to Wing Chun Mastery​

Also found this interesting

The Four Stages of Competence​

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

WC is not the proper system to train 6H. A beginner needs to learn how to coordinate foot with hand. But the 1st WC form lets the beginner to stand still and only move arms without moving the feet.

The difficult training level can be:

foot coordinate with hand < knee coordinate with elbow < hip coordinate with shoulder

WC doesn't give beginners an easy training form even for "foot coordinate with hand".

 

[APL76]

WC is not the proper system to train 6H. A beginner needs to learn how to coordinate foot with hand. But the 1st WC form lets the beginner to stand still and only move arms without moving the feet.

The difficult training level can be:

foot coordinate with hand < knee coordinate with elbow < hip coordinate with shoulder

WC doesn't give beginners an easy training form even for "foot coordinate with hand".

I think you are only partly correct, and even then, that's not considering the sweeping generalisation about what Wing Chun does.

Generalisation first: Wing Chun is so fractured into various groups that saying wat Wing Chun does about foot hand coordination is impossible. Some would train at it from the get-go, some might not, some somewhere in between.

Then about standing in one spot: Yes, we do the first form stationarily. This is to develop a strong stance and correct alignment of the body in relation to the centreline. Indeed, when I learned Sum Nung Wing Chun the only training, I did for about 4 months was stance work, nothing else. However, you do learn to coordinate the whole body, including the arms when you open and close your stance.

The idea of this training is that, without a strong stance you won't have as highly developed basis on which to build hand-foot coordination.

Followong the stance training comes learning to punch then the Turning Stance. When you learn Turning Stance, one of the primary points of the training is to develop coordination between hips, stance and hands. When I leaned that, and everything following it in Sum Nung Wing Chun, it was foot-hand coordination for about the next 7 years.

So, as is standard, Wing Chun already incorporates what you are talking about, at least how I learned it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you want to train

- kicking, your form needs to have a lot of kicks.
- 6H, your form needs to have a lot of footwork.

To train 6H, you need to have a form that's designed for that training purpose. The form needs to be moving around. This way, it's easier for a beginner to check whether or not his

- hand and foot start to move at the same time, and also
- hand and foot stop at the same time.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you want to train

- kicking, your form needs to have a lot of kicks.
- 6H, your form needs to have a lot of footwork.

To train 6H, you need to have a form that's designed for that training purpose. The form needs to be moving around. This way, it's easier for a beginner to check whether or not his

- hand and foot start to move at the same time, and also
- hand and foot stop at the same time.

you do realize we are in a Wing Chun section talking about Wing Chun right?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you do realize we are in a Wing Chun section talking about Wing Chun right?

I don't know how anybody can use the 1st WC form to train 6H. I show an example why the 1st WC form is not proper for that purpose.

Actually, the 1st WC form has violated the 6H principle big time - freeze the body and only move the arm.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't know how anybody can use the 1st WC form to train 6H. I show an example why the 1st WC form is not proper for that purpose.

Hands/feet
elbows/knees
Shoulders/hips

I disagree

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Hands/feet
elbows/knees
Shoulders/hips

I disagree

In this video, where are the coordination of

- Hands/feet,
- elbows/knees,
- Shoulders/hips?

At least, in this video, you can clearly see the elbow/knee coordination.

- elbow bend, knee bend.
- elbow straight, knee straight.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In this video, where are the coordination of

- Hands/feet,
- elbows/knees,
- Shoulders/hips?

At least, in this video, you can clearly see the elbow/knee coordination.

- elbow bend, knee bend.
- elbow straight, knee straight.

I think you have a bit of a misconception as to what the 6 harmonies are about....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think you have a bit of a misconception as to what the 6 harmonies are about....

My definition of 6H is

Liu He Six Harmony Boxing - KaiMen

Liu He Quan is an old style of Kung Fu rarely taught nowadays. It has, however, been influential in the formation and completion of many other styles.

www.plumpub.com

所谓“外三合”是指“肩与胯合，肘与膝合，手与足合”
内三合”是指“心与意合，意与气合，气与力合”

EXTERNAL
Foot corresponds to Hand
Elbow corresponds to Knee
Shoulder corresponds to Hip

INTERNAL
Mind leads Intent
Intent leads Blood
Blood leads Chi

Do you have different definition of 6H?

 

[wckf92]

WC is not the proper system to train 6H. A beginner needs to learn how to coordinate foot with hand. But the 1st WC form lets the beginner to stand still and only move arms without moving the feet.

The difficult training level can be:

foot coordinate with hand < knee coordinate with elbow < hip coordinate with shoulder

WC doesn't give beginners an easy training form even for "foot coordinate with hand".

Have you learned wing chun's second form/chum kiu?

 

[wckf92]

you do realize we are in a Wing Chun section talking about Wing Chun right?

He is always preaching about how "his" wing chun seems to be lacking. Honestly, not sure why he even converses here in this forum.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Have you learned wing chun's second form/chum kiu?

I have learned all 3 WC forms. I'm talking about the 1st WC form for beginners.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He is always preaching about how "his" wing chun seems to be lacking. Honestly, not sure why he even converses here in this forum.

Please stay on the topic (6H in WC) and leave YOU and I out of the discussion.

 

[wckf92]

I have learned all 3 WC forms. I'm talking about the 1st WC form for beginners.

If you think the 1st form lacks these things, and you can't wait to learn them in the 2nd form, then perhaps wing chun isn't for you.
Wing chun forms are the alphabet.
1st form = ABC's etc.
2nd form = basic grammar, punctuation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you think the 1st form lacks these things, and you can't wait to learn them in the 2nd form, then perhaps wing chun isn't for you.
Wing chun forms are the alphabet.
1st form = ABC's etc.
2nd form = basic grammar, punctuation.

The 1st beginner WC form is to build WC foundation. the 6H foundation is not built during the 1st WC form training.

If WC care about 6H, 6H should exist in the first WC form. After the beginners get used to "freeze the body and only move arms", it will take extra time for beginners to learn 6H after that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My definition of 6H is

Liu He Six Harmony Boxing - KaiMen

Liu He Quan is an old style of Kung Fu rarely taught nowadays. It has, however, been influential in the formation and completion of many other styles.

www.plumpub.com

所谓“外三合”是指“肩与胯合，肘与膝合，手与足合”
内三合”是指“心与意合，意与气合，气与力合”

EXTERNAL
Foot corresponds to Hand
Elbow corresponds to Knee
Shoulder corresponds to Hip

INTERNAL
Mind leads Intent
Intent leads Blood
Blood leads Chi

Do you have different definition of 6H?

No I don't, but straightened knee and straighten elbow is not what it is

 

[Xue Sheng]

Please stay on the topic (6H in WC) and leave YOU and I out of the discussion.

you as well, have you read the article?... and You was very important to my question and for the record, you do not dictate the rules of this discussion.

And I am gussing you have not read the article because it also talks about the 6 internal harmonies

You would also know what is said about sil lum tao in the article.... Please read before you attack

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And I am gussing you have not read the article because it also talks about the 6 internal harmonies

You would also know what is said about sil lum tao in the article.... Please read before you attack

What attack? I have not said anything new that this article hasn't said yet.

the first fist form does not see any stepping -> beginners don't get chance to train 6H (during the 1st form training time).

This concept is not one that is typically understood by the Wing Chun student as they work through the Sil Lim Tao form, as the basic front-facing stance (Yee gee kim yeung ma) used in the first fist form does not see any stepping. However, it is possible to introduce the concept so the student can think about the stationary positions of the three external harmonies relative to each other in the static, front-stance. Furthermore, this is something that can be introduced to the student in 5-point stepping – where the basic structure being developed in Sui Lim Tao can start to be moved around by the Wing Chun student. It is something that becomes necessary to train in and develop a much deeper understand of in the Chum Kiu form.

 

[marvin8]

In this video, where are the coordination of

- Hands/feet,
- elbows/knees,
- Shoulders/hips?

At least, in this video, you can clearly see the elbow/knee coordination.

- elbow bend, knee bend.
- elbow straight, knee straight.

I don't think you will find any sparring or fight (e.g., wing chun, xingyi, baji) that coordinates hand and foot landing the way you describe it. Most lead hand coordinates with lead foot. However, if you throw a combination, normally stepping with the lead hand gets you into range then subsequent punches follow without stepping.

It doesn't seem practical, efficient nor the most powerful. May be it's done in forms but not in actual sparring or fighting.