Ba Gua and Wing Chun

[Juany118]

I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards.

It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.

I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.

I would even ask "what is your definition of internal martial arts?". I say this because even Southern Bagua is referred to as internal afaik. I think people get wrapped up in appearance when it comes to that concept sometimes.

First that term is a post WWII (I think 1960s?) Artifact. Second if I am tense and someone catches it, they call me out. I need to be relaxed to properly do Wing Chun. Maybe the problem is some people don't realize there is actually a debate, in side some portions of the Wing Chun Community, as to whether we practice an internal, external, or "all of the above" martial art? Simply because you move in "straight" lines doesn't mean you universally follow stereotypical external principles.

 

[Nobody Important]

Se Ying Diu Sau (Snake Form Artful Hand)

Lineage

1. Choy Gau Yee

2. Leung Sil Jong

3. Leung Tien Chiu

4. Leung Gar Fong

5. Fong Chok Ming


Se Ying Diu Sau began in the Ching dynasty with Leung Sil Jong who learned it from a Siu Lam monk (Choy Gau Yee?) in Fook Gien, Pu Teen. Hue Lung Gung was a teacher of Choy Kuen and Hung Kuen contracted by the Leung family to teach their youth in Law Ding village in Kuong Sae. Leung Sil Jong was the caretaker of the Leung family ancestral hall. Leung Sil Jong was old at this time and liked to drink. When the youth were celebrating the New Year, they were making quite a disturbance, banging on drums and clashing cymbals, Leung Sil Jong, being hung over, insisted that they stop. The youth then proceeded to torment the old man by making even more noise, at which point Leung Sil Jong flew into a rage and trashed everything. The youth sought out their boxing coach Hue Lung Gong to teach Leung Sil Jong a lesson for ruining their celebration. Hue Lung Gong upon seeing the inebriated Leung Sil Jong insisted he go sleep it off, but Leung Sil Jong was still angry and wanted to fight so he pressed the issue to the point where Hue Lung Gong couldn’t back out. Leong Sil Jong soundly whipped Hue Lung Gong to everyone’s amazement, as no one knew that he studied martial arts. Having lost face Hue Lung Gong prepared to leave, it was only upon the insistence of Leung Sil Jong that he remained. Hue Lung Gong continued to teach Choy and Hung fist while Leung Sil Jong passed on the Snake Form Artful Hand to the Leung family of Law Ding.

This is the history as passed on by Leung Gar Fong, prior to him closing his hands.


5 Key Words of Se Ying Diu Sau

1. Niem (Adhere)

2. Chien (Bind)

3. Mien (Soft)

4. Lien (Connect)

5. Chiur (Follow)

Explanation of the 5 key words.

Adhere is the snake form’s common hand move, like the snake coiling around the victim. Binding is considered the first stage to securing a grip. Soft is pliant and strong. Connect is the act of connecting softly. Do not break off, maintain continuity until the deed is accomplished. Follow is moving back and forth accompanied with strength be persistent and forceful.


It is composed of a total of 136 forms in the entire set and is divided into 4 sections.

1. Fingers and Palms

2. Bridge and Block Hands (Adhesive Bridge)

3. Leg Methods

4. Footwork


This is about the extent of what I know about this style. From what I’ve seen it is very much like a proto-Wing Chun method, very flowing with narrow stances and short bridges. Legend states that Leung Bok Chau, the supposed husband of Yim Wing Chun, was also a student of Choy Gau Yee (Choy Gar founder) prior to learning the Crane method from Yim Si and Yim Wing Chun. Could this be the Snake system in the union of Snake and Crane that ultimately lead to what we refer to as Wing Chun.

It is said that Se Ying Diu Sau is based upon the 8 diagrams, to what extent I don't know. Its curious to think that there are other Choy Gar lineages that tell the story of Leung Bok Chou having learned from Choy Gau Yee, and it's quite possible that before it was known as Choy Gar that the actual name was Se Ying Diu Sau. Choy Gar itself is said to be a blend of Lau Gar (Crane) and Mok Gar (Snake). It is famous for it's Snake hands and Rat stepping and is now know as the style of the Dragon. Intriguing is it not?

 

[Nobody Important]

Found this on Youku by plugging in the characters for Se Ying Diu Sau. My Chinese isn't very good, but the description stated Snake Form Artful Hand. This fellow is known for his Deng Family Hung Kuen and a Hard Style Wing Chun. In this video, which is mostly a tutorial, he shows some things that are very Wing Chun like, I'm not ruling it out that it is Wing Chun because one part he did was nearly identical to the Fa Kuen section of Yuen Family Siu Lim Tau. Maybe someone else can clairify what is in this video, because if it's not Wing Chun it sure looks like it.

蛇形刁手—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

 

[KPM]

I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards.

It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.

I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.

Ah! See this is where I was misinterpreting as well! When you said "Ba Gua" in the OP I immediately assumed the martial art of Ba Gua Chang. That is what my friend practices. But you are referring to "Ba Gua" in a more generic sense. Really, "Ba Gua" simply refers to the 8 trigrams. So anything that is divided up into 8 directions, or 8 hands, or whatever....can have the label "Ba Gua." I've even seen people talk about "Ba Gua footwork" in Ip Man's Wing Chun as something he taught in Foshan but abandoned in Hong Kong.

 

[KPM]

I have my centerline (shove a rod down the center of my head to the ground) = Motherline


, my centerline plane (the straight line to my opponent), = Centerline

my opponent's centerline, same as mine. = Central-line

That's how I think of it.

 

[Nobody Important]

I have my centerline (shove a rod down the center of my head to the ground) = Motherline


, my centerline plane (the straight line to my opponent), = Centerline

my opponent's centerline, same as mine. = Central-line

That's how I think of it.

Mine is as follows.
Mother line - imaginary pole from bai hua to huiyen. Like a carousel horse.
Inside line - line between me and opponent.
Center line - divides body equally in half, left & right.

 

[wckf92]

This form is as close as I could find as to what the Se Ying Diu Sau style looks like as best I can remember.

Lots of Wing Chun like stuff in here.

Kind of off topic but I hope I'm moving like that at 90!

 

[wckf92]

I've even seen people talk about "Ba Gua footwork" in Ip Man's Wing Chun as something he taught in Foshan but abandoned in Hong Kong.

I agree. And this is why I am interested to learn more. @yak sao mentioned is quite correctly with regard to jong footwork and tri-pole methods.
That being said, I'm not sure how many of YM's students learned it...nor why it was supposedly dropped.(?)

 

[oaktree]

I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards.

It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.

I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.

I don't see what makes it any more or less Bagua in your context or mine. Please provide Chinese hanzi sources so I can read the actual Chinese of what you are saying or speak in hanzi so I can read what you are saying.

 

[oaktree]

First I think there is a misconception of what the Wing Chun centerline is. I actually joke sometimes that they used one term to describe three different things in order to confuse people . I have my centerline (shove a rod down the center of my head to the ground), my centerline plane (the straight line to my opponent), my opponent's centerline, same as mine. As such I can attack my opponent's centerline from their front, flank, rear etc. My centerline plane does NOT have to meet my opponents. As a matter of fact it is better that it doesn't.

To ram this point home, in my school of Wing Chun my job/goal is to try and fight on the "blind side" so I am constantly trying to stay on the flank of my opponent much the same as you explain. Now I will get there via stepping in, but at an angle, but I am always trying to maintain a position where my opponent, if he wants to attack me with both hands, has to either reach across his body with his opposite hand OR constantly reorient, which if I am doing my job correctly he will have a great deal of trouble doing.

Hey juany I touched hands with different guys from wing Chun, in fact my teacher also teaches it and majority of the time it is linear and on the line attacks, I don't mean to say that there are exceptions same as in Baguazhang we have linear attacks but we as Baguazhang practitioners are more circular then linear.

 

[oaktree]

It is likely based on this

Not this

And likely has as much to do with Baguazhang (which is a Northern style, and any versions of Baguazhang done in the south all come from this origin,.) as Taiji Mantis has to do with Taijiquan

But what makes it Bagua bass is each direction based on a trigram? Is each palm based on a trigram? Baguazhang is based off the trigram each palm and in some cases entire form or sequence is based on a trigram. Maybe if I see the hanzi that is being used to describe say Bagua stepping and more about it in hanzi I can understand it.

 

[KPM]

I agree. And this is why I am interested to learn more. @yak sao mentioned is quite correctly with regard to jong footwork and tri-pole methods.
That being said, I'm not sure how many of YM's students learned it...nor why it was supposedly dropped.(?)

The story I heard was that Ip Man stream-lined and refined what he was teaching when he got to Hong Kong. This could right along with what Juany has said elsewhere about Ip Man never intending to teach at that stage of his life and having to go back and remember and reconstruct certain things that he had simply made part of the way he moved. Anyway...supposedly Ip Man dropped a lot of the "flowery terminology" and more elaborate drills to make things more straightforward. So he didn't necessary drop what had been called "Ba Gua footwork" in Foshan, he simply didn't teach it as a specific module of learning with that name. All the footwork was still there, just taught in a more integrated fashion with the training.

 

[dudewingchun]

I agree. And this is why I am interested to learn more. @yak sao mentioned is quite correctly with regard to jong footwork and tri-pole methods.
That being said, I'm not sure how many of YM's students learned it...nor why it was supposedly dropped.(?)

Is there any footage of duncan leungs tri pole?

 

[dudewingchun]

The story I heard was that Ip Man stream-lined and refined what he was teaching when he got to Hong Kong. This could right along with what Juany has said elsewhere about Ip Man never intending to teach at that stage of his life and having to go back and remember and reconstruct certain things that he had simply made part of the way he moved. Anyway...supposedly Ip Man dropped a lot of the "flowery terminology" and more elaborate drills to make things more straightforward. So he didn't necessary drop what had been called "Ba Gua footwork" in Foshan, he simply didn't teach it as a specific module of learning with that name. All the footwork was still there, just taught in a more integrated fashion with the training.

In an Ip chun book i have it has a chapter on Ba gua and he mentioned he noticed Ip Man had streamlined it and removed that stuff from his teaching.

 

[wckf92]

Is there any footage of duncan leungs tri pole?

Sadly...no.
Wish there was!

 

[wckf92]

In an Ip chun book i have it has a chapter on Ba gua and he mentioned he noticed Ip Man had streamlined it and removed that stuff from his teaching.

I hear ya bro...but I'm not sure thats entirely accurate. There are still 'signatures' of it out there...

 

[dudewingchun]

Sadly...no.
Wish there was!

Ah damn. hard to find much footage of Duncan Leungs style.

 

[wckf92]

Ah damn. hard to find much footage of Duncan Leungs style.

Yep. Sure is!

 

[Juany118]

Found this on Youku by plugging in the characters for Se Ying Diu Sau. My Chinese isn't very good, but the description stated Snake Form Artful Hand. This fellow is known for his Deng Family Hung Kuen and a Hard Style Wing Chun. In this video, which is mostly a tutorial, he shows some things that are very Wing Chun like, I'm not ruling it out that it is Wing Chun because one part he did was nearly identical to the Fa Kuen section of Yuen Family Siu Lim Tau. Maybe someone else can clairify what is in this video, because if it's not Wing Chun it sure looks like it.

蛇形刁手—在线播放—优酷网，视频高清在线观看

Well the thing is that WC is a vast sub family. Example, YM lineage is typically very different from mainland versions, and the YM lineage I study, TWC is different from most other YM Lineages. I think sometimes, when people think "WC" they picture stereotypical WC and this would be inaccurate.

All of this, and the prior conversation where the origins of WC came up, reminds me of an alternative tale of WC's creation.

Most have heard the "Ng Mui sees snake fight crane. Ng Mui teaches the art to Wing Chun. She in turn teaches the art to her Red Boat Husband..." Etc. There is another though. An alternative states that WC was created by committee, that its purpose was to have a system that took bits and pieces from multiple arts to have a single art that could produce competent Kung Fu practitioners more quickly. The one story I read said 5 years vs the 15 years it could take with other arts. Ng Mui was simply the lone survivor of this committee.

 

[Nobody Important]

Well the thing is that WC is a vast sub family. Example, YM lineage is typically very different from mainland versions, and the YM lineage I study, TWC is different from most other YM Lineages. I think sometimes, when people think "WC" they picture stereotypical WC and this would be inaccurate.

All of this, and the prior conversation where the origins of WC came up, reminds me of an alternative tale of WC's creation.

Most have heard the "Ng Mui sees snake fight crane. Ng Mui teaches the art to Wing Chun. She in turn teaches the art to her Red Boat Husband..." Etc. There is another though. An alternative states that WC was created by committee, that its purpose was to have a system that took bits and pieces from multiple arts to have a single art that could produce competent Kung Fu practitioners more quickly. The one story I read said 5 years vs the 15 years it could take with other arts. Ng Mui was simply the lone survivor of this committee.

I've heard this tale as well, and it shows how one legend can be absorbed into another because of a common ancestor, in this case Yongchun White Crane. The story you relate is actually one of the legends surrounding the formation of Ngo Cho Kun (Wuzu Quan), the 5 Ancestors method. The coming together of 5 styles (Monkey, Crane, Lohan, Tai Cho and Dat Mor). The tale became to be associated with Wing Chun because of Yongchun White Crane, it is a predominant part of 5 Ancestors, to the point, that some branches are known as White Crane without the distinction of the other arts.