Six Harmonies in Wing Chun

[Wing Woo Gar]

I probably should have known this was in Wing Chun, since I have been in CMA for over 390 years, abnd I have dealt with this before in Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji...but I simply did not know it was part of Wing Chun too..

The Six Harmonies – A Path to Wing Chun Mastery​

Also found this interesting

The Four Stages of Competence​

It’s foundational in Wing Woo Gar as well.

 

[APL76]

What attack? I have not said anything new that this article hasn't said yet.

the first fist form does not see any stepping -> beginners don't get chance to train 6H (during the 1st form training time).

This concept is not one that is typically understood by the Wing Chun student as they work through the Sil Lim Tao form, as the basic front-facing stance (Yee gee kim yeung ma) used in the first fist form does not see any stepping. However, it is possible to introduce the concept so the student can think about the stationary positions of the three external harmonies relative to each other in the static, front-stance. Furthermore, this is something that can be introduced to the student in 5-point stepping – where the basic structure being developed in Sui Lim Tao can start to be moved around by the Wing Chun student. It is something that becomes necessary to train in and develop a much deeper understand of in the Chum Kiu form.

This is probably a fair comment for a lot of Wing Chun. It doesn't apply to all Wing Chun though.

Certainly, in Sum Nung Wing Chun, it'd be unusual for a beginner to go near Sui Lum Tao for a few years if they learned the traditional way.

Before learning any of the standard 6 forms a beginner would move through Sup Yi Sik. Many of the drills in Sup Yi Sik inculcate all the coordination you are talking about.

 

[O'Malley]

I like Six Harmonies, but I think Camilla is better off as a solo artist.

 

[O'Malley]

More seriously, the model is interesting (and I like KFW's second gif as well.

At least, in this video, you can clearly see the elbow/knee coordination.

- elbow bend, knee bend.
- elbow straight, knee straight.

Now for the controversial question: do you coordinate hand/elbow/shoulder with the foot/knee/hip from the same side (right with right), or from the opposite side (right with left), and why?

And I also don't see 6H in the Siu Lim Tao video, but I guess you could try to do it in a way that reflects 6H.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What attack? I have not said anything new that this article hasn't said yet.

the first fist form does not see any stepping -> beginners don't get chance to train 6H (during the 1st form training time).

This concept is not one that is typically understood by the Wing Chun student as they work through the Sil Lim Tao form, as the basic front-facing stance (Yee gee kim yeung ma) used in the first fist form does not see any stepping. However, it is possible to introduce the concept so the student can think about the stationary positions of the three external harmonies relative to each other in the static, front-stance. Furthermore, this is something that can be introduced to the student in 5-point stepping – where the basic structure being developed in Sui Lim Tao can start to be moved around by the Wing Chun student. It is something that becomes necessary to train in and develop a much deeper understand of in the Chum Kiu form.

Now your talking specifically about sil lum tao.... originally you were talking about the entire system...... see below

WC is not the proper system to train 6H. A beginner needs to learn how to coordinate foot with hand. But the 1st WC form lets the beginner to stand still and only move arms without moving the feet.

The difficult training level can be:

foot coordinate with hand < knee coordinate with elbow < hip coordinate with shoulder

WC doesn't give beginners an easy training form even for "foot coordinate with hand".

That was an attack on the system and I suspect you had not even read the article at that point. By the way, have you read it yet? and I mean read, not just skim

If in fact Sil Lum Tao does not teach the 6 harmonies the like @wckf92 posted, it is basics.... so going after the entire system based on sil lum tao is like going after an elementary school child who only knows basic math because they can't do calculus... and that would be very wrong.....

Now, you and I have gone at it over taijiquan, and I still maintain you don't know taijiquan. I also still maintain you do know a lot about shuaijiao.... but that also means you are not a Niejia person and you are a Waijia person and I suspect Neijia training is not something you approve of, this by the way is your opinion, not fact that. So just because you don't like something, does not make it wrong.

Now I do not have the background in Wing Chun to argue against what you are saying, but I am fairly sure you are not correct in your overall assessment of the style.

What I do know is Taijiquan and what I do know is Chen style silk reeling, and if you knew that you would know stepping is not required to work on the 6 harmonies. Chen silk reeling has statinary training that is HYPER focused on the 6 harmonies. Therefore stepping is not required at all. So sil lum tao not having stepping is irrelevant as it applies to the 6 harmonies

My experience in wing chun is only in Sil Lum Tao, and I do work with the 6 harmonies, However I an wiling to admit it may be due to my taijiquan background.

 

[windwalker099]

What I do know is Taijiquan and what I do know is Chen style silk reeling, and if you knew that you would know stepping is not required to work on the 6 harmonies. Chen silk reeling has statinary training that is HYPER focused on the 6 harmonies. Therefore stepping is not required at all. So sil lum tao not having stepping is irrelevant as it applies to the 6 harmonies

Agree ..

per my understanding of wing chun although cursory and long ago..
Had a couple of friends who practiced it...

The Six Harmonies comprise the three Internal Harmonies (san nei he) and the three External Harmonies (wai san he)

Felt the article was well written echoing things mentioned by my last taiji teacher.

As for wing chun, the first form...
Watching some of the practice through a taiji lens....
The relationships of the external harmonies are developed/ formed during the practice of the first set.
How they are emphasized or trained dependent on teacher..

Some thoughts watching the practice. Could be wrong

wing chun, not really my cup of tea...an interesting style
and development history.

Very rare performance of Pan Nam's Siu Nim Tao during a visit to Foshan by Chris Chan & Ip Chun.Chris Chan is a first generation student of Ip Man who teaches in San Francisco.

Chris Chan, a noted wing chun, teacher in SF...

 

[windwalker099]

And I also don't see 6H in the Siu Lim Tao video, but I guess you could try to do it in a way that reflects 6H.

Kinda depends if one is looking for movement that drives other movements
Or a structure that is linked or harmonized with itself.

Each expressing 6-H

Think of the opening in "taiji"

Would someone see the 6-H there if they were not aware of them ?
For many the opening sequence in taiji is just the opening...

Dependent on teacher , and style.

It may not be, as I found out long ago with one teacher teaching the 37 step..

"He asked me to only do the opening movement, with a soft ” again” after each time the movement ended.
This went on for some 60 min, until he saw what he was looking for.
Something that I could not understand at the time."

He used to tell me "after many yrs you will know "

Now I do...still working on it.

 

[Callen]

I probably should have known this was in Wing Chun, since I have been in CMA for over 390 years, abnd I have dealt with this before in Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji...but I simply did not know it was part of Wing Chun too..

It isn't really "in" anything. The Six Harmonies is its own practice (exercise), and was not necessarily meant to be attached to any one specific style of gong fu. While its roots are in Shaolin, it can theoretically be applied to any CMA. However, that does not mean that all CMA are a fit for Liu He (Six Harmonies). It's an interpretive situation.

WC groups that focus on the mechanics that facilitate hitting for example, are less likely to use the system to teach/express Liu He or hei gung (qigong) aspects in general. A practitioner can certainly apply Liu He to their personal WC training, but it is not necessarily present in the system. Do they "see it" in their SNT, is it manifested through the movements of CK, etc...? Where in any gong fu system the Six Harmonies are reflected or are brought to fruition is truly up to the lineage/interpretation and application of the individual.

 

[marvin8]

In this video, where are the coordination of

- Hands/feet,
- elbows/knees,
- Shoulders/hips?

What attack? I have not said anything new that this article hasn't said yet.

the first fist form does not see any stepping -> beginners don't get chance to train 6H (during the 1st form training time).

Per Sharif, the external harmonies coordinate hands and feet do not require "stepping."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now your talking specifically about sil lum tao.... originally you were talking about the entire system......

WC is not the proper system to train 6H. A beginner needs to learn how to coordinate foot with hand. But the 1st WC form lets the beginner to stand still and only move arms without moving the feet.

You attack me without even read my 1st post.

We all know that the WC wooden dummy, knife form, and pole form all have footwork. I'm talking about the beginner training stage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I suspect you had not even read the article at that point. By the way, have you read it yet? and I mean read, not just skim

You also do not dictate whether I should read or just skim.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Per Sharif, the external harmonies coordinate hands and feet do not require "stepping."

1. First to "coordinate shoulder with hip" is not easy for the beginners.
2. Second, some forms don't have footwork which is difficult to train "hand coordinate with foot".
3. The only thing left is "elbow coordinate with knee" that when your elbow bends, your knee should bend. When your elbow is straight, you knee should be straight".

Should 3 exist in all MA training?

 

[windwalker099]

Some may not be aware of what are called force couplers.
Used to understand and correct movement in
Physical therapy...

Force couples are when 2 or more muscles on opposing sides of a joint work together to provide joint stability or create movement.

"force couples" fit in well with what what is called 6-H
Could be applied on a larger scale to cross body alignment.
Using what some call "whole body" force or movement.

The approach to making someone aware of a concept depends on the teacher, style, and the importance placed on the method used.

For some teachers maybe less important at different stages or times in the training then others.

The discussion itself might be a way to look at terms such as "internal" and "external".

Some people focus on the dynamic movements that are visible during motion, while others emphasize the internal connections within the body that can be felt even when stationary."

 

[wckf92]

You attack me without even read my 1st post.

We all know that the WC wooden dummy, knife form, and pole form all have footwork. I'm talking about the beginner training stage.

What do you consider to be "the beginner training stage"?
And by the way, 2nd and 3rd form also have footwork.
If you are solely considering SLT 1st form as the beginner stage, then you must be aware that there are other drills and exercises that "new" students do besides just standing there practicing the 1st form.
IME, wc curriculum is a progressive experience, with each skill building towards the next etc etc.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You also do not dictate whether I should read or just skim.

I did not dictate, I asked, you did not answer. However, if you are going to entert a discussion about a linked article that is in the OP, one would think you might read it before discussing it. It would be the correct thing to do IMO. But you do you......

 

[geezer]

I did not dictate, I asked, you did not answer. However, if you are going to entert a discussion about a linked article that is in the OP, one would think you might read it before discussing it. It would be the correct thing to do IMO. But you do you......

You ask a lot. I looked at that article and got a few paragraphs in when my ADHD kicked in and I skimmed the rest. Well most of the rest, anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, there are probably schools of Wing Chun that are concerned with the 6 Harmonies. Mine was not. I was keen on coordinating my punches with my body movement. I'd say John Wang is right. In most WC, Siu Nim Tau teaches position and structure, but not coordinating steps and punches. As previously pointed out, in the forms that really comes later with Chum Kiu.

So, yeah ...that connection isn't taught on day one in many WC schools. But, all roads lead to Rome. Good WC trains those kinetic linkages and coordination of body to punch. But maybe not in SNT form. And how much any of that has to do with the "6 Harmonies" I don't know. The WC I learned was soft and flexible, but not heavily focused on the so-called internal stuff, and that suited me fine.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You ask a lot. I looked at that article and got a few paragraphs in when my ADHD kicked in and I skimmed the rest. Well most of the rest, anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, there are probably schools of Wing Chun that are concerned with the 6 Harmonies. Mine was not. I was keen on coordinating my punches with my body movement. I'd say John Wang is right. In most WC, Siu Nim Tau teaches position and structure, but not coordinating steps and punches. As previously pointed out, in the forms that really comes later with Chum Kiu.

So, yeah ...that connection isn't taught on day one in many WC schools. But, all roads lead to Rome. Good WC trains those kinetic linkages and coordination of body to punch. But maybe not in SNT form. And how much any of that has to do with the "6 Harmonies" I don't know. The WC I learned was soft and flexible, but not heavily focused on the so-called internal stuff, and that suited me fine.

If you read the very first line, of the very first post, that John Wang posted, in this thread...he did not say SLT does not focus on the 6 harmonies, he said

"WC is not the proper system to train 6H"

So he said, specifically, Wing Chun...he later changed to SLT

And in the article it does talk about SLT as not necessarily focusing on it....

But an interesting thing happened in my Wing Chun class last week, kind of reminiscent of my long past Sanda training..

The sifu was talking about a strike and he was talking about the 6 harmonies, but not using the words.....so technically he was not teaching structure with the 6 harmonies, but he was talking about it in different words

similar thing in sanda when the teacher said this has nothing to do with taijiquan and power generation...and then went on to describe taiji power generation in the words used in Sanda.

 

[windwalker099]

The sifu was talking about a strike and he was talking about the 6 harmonies, but not using the words.....so technically he was not teaching structure with the 6 harmonies, but he was talking about it in different words

similar thing in sanda when the teacher said this has nothing to do with taijiquan and power generation...and then went on to describe taiji power generation in the words used in Sanda.

My introduction to Taiji was in Hawaii by an Aikidōka friend who told me it would deepen my understanding of CMA. He was right, although it took many years to find what I was looking for, though it.

Per Sharif, the external harmonies coordinate hands and feet do not require "stepping."

Very true, static or dynamic taught directly or indirectly.

All movement could be looked at through the lens of the six harmonies due to human body dynamics.

The sifu was talking about a strike and he was talking about the 6 harmonies, but not using the words

Depending on ones back ground they may not be aware of term "the six harmonies"

 

[Xue Sheng]

Additionally, @geezer

My discussion with John Wang was never about the 6 harmonies being in Sil Lum Tao. It was about his understanding of the 6 harmonies. And statements like these tell me he has no real understanding of the 6 harmonies

- 6H, your form needs to have a lot of footwork.

To train 6H, you need to have a form that's designed for that training purpose. The form needs to be moving around. This way, it's easier for a beginner to check whether or not his

- hand and foot start to move at the same time, and also
- hand and foot stop at the same time.

foot coordinate with hand < knee coordinate with elbow < hip coordinate with shoulder

WC doesn't give beginners an easy training form even for "foot coordinate with hand".

That one however makes since, but all others on this say he does not understand what that even means as it applies to the 6 harmonies

At least, in this video, you can clearly see the elbow/knee coordination.

- elbow bend, knee bend.
- elbow straight, knee straight.

For me, it is there, even in Sil Lum Tao, but like I said previously, that could simply be my background in CIMA styles talking. Has my Wing Chun Sifu talked about it.... no...and yes...but not intentionally.... what he is saying is the 6 harmonies, but it is not what he is teaching, if that makes sense. Without the 6 harmonies you would never get power to your fist in Centerline straight punch.

However with that said, I am not at all arguing that it is there, or being taught, I am sure things change from lineage to lineage just like every other CMA style.

 

[_Simon_]

I am not feeling very harmonious right now!!!!!!!

But seriously, a very interesting principle. I always felt more of an elbow-hip connection than elbow-knee... but am not a CMA guy. I definitely feel the hip digging in behind the elbow (for a punch, thrust-like strike) or even pulling the elbow so to speak (for hooking/pulling or receiving/absorbing), any thoughts on this anybody?