Shame on you.... for misrepresenting yourself.... and your ability.

[JR 137]

No I think you can be both.

Semantics IMO. I view a fraud as someone who genuinely knows what they’re selling is BS, but keeps passing it off as legit to others.

The idiot, on the other hand, blindly accepts what he’s been sold and genuinely thinks he’s teaching something effective and legit.

The fraud knows and doesn’t care. The idiot has no clue.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I like pie.

 

[JR 137]

I used to think MA training is only good for fighting.

My long fist teacher is 92 years old today. If you train MA and never have to use it, but if it can help you to live through your 100 years old birthday, your MA training will have great value.

I never said it was only good for fighting.

What I was saying is back when I started training in ‘94, most new people came in looking for SD training. They wanted other things too, but SD was typically first and foremost. The other stuff was a bonus; a welcomed bonus, but a bonus. Nowadays, it seems significantly less people are looking for SD; they’re looking for exercise primarily, and the other stuff as a bonus.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I like pie.

I don't disagree, but the type of pie is important. I don't much care for coconut cream, for example. But I do approve of pie, in general.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Based on the comments he made to me in this thread, he's talking about a post a while back where someone had training in an art, and wanted to apply at a university, but the university required him to have a paper certificate that proves he was qualified to teach the art. The problem isn't that he wasn't qualified - it's that he had no paper to prove it.

Is that what this is about?

He is not an instructor. Presents himself as one.
Also delusional in their ability.... lost sparring against people with less than one year training. And continued to misrepresent his ability and himself as an instructor.

Not saying you don't have a right to be angry but here are some realities.

1. If you teach what you know then you are an instructor. I can call myself an instructor of Jow Ga Kung fu. I don't need paper work for that. Teaching what I know makes me an instructor. What I can't do is call myself a Sifu of Jow Ga because that is a different process. I could develop my own fighting system and I can call myself Sifu all I want.
   
2. Delusional in their ability - Fighting with kung fu, tai chi or anything beyond basic kickboxing is not easy. There are people out there who know their stuff and couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag.
3. If I were to take karate now. There will be a lot of people who are going to lose against someone with less than one year of training.

You may expect too much out of the MA training

I think you are right about that, on multiple levels.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just on a side note. If anyone trains with me,.. I hope I don't let you down. lol. because damn. someone is upset. lol

 

[ShortBridge]

I like pie.

Are there any videos on YouTube of you enjoying pie? If not it's just talk.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight. Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training. Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.

You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general. You learn respect and honor. You treat others with kindness. You evolve and usually become a better person.

So I ask this question. If you were not a contractor and you hired someone to build an addition on your house.. who you thought they knew what they were doing. And later found out that you got ripped off and paid tons of money to find out it was all done wrong. Or if you hired someone to fix your car and to just find that it was worse. How would you feel?

This happens in the martial arts. People misrepresent themselves. And well I have an issue with that. If you say you are a Master, a Sifu, a Guru, etc. Then dammit.... be that. Do not lie and say you are if your Sensei or instructor would have never awarded you the Certificate to teach. Do not claim to be what you are not.
Also people who pay for some certificate from a online place is a scam also. Obviously they also have no moral in misrepresenting themselves. I have seen people in my area pay hundreds of dollars to an organization so that they can they are certified by that organization. Even when the instructor has long been dead. Just cause the spouse of the instructor finds it as a source of income to do mail order Certificates. Suddenly someone who has become an Instructor of art X over night. Come on. Now most people training in the arts will see this as for what it is. But for the young child who is becoming a student and their parents who is paying good money and time and effort to get their child there should get what they paid for. Not a scam. This is disgraceful. And ultimately it's the downfall that is causing people to shy away from training. Esp. in the traditional arts.

Disclaimer..... I am not saying that a piece of paper will make you a good fighter. I know a lot of people who are great fighters... without that piece of paper. But if you are teaching and claiming that you are an instructor of that art... then you should have the blessing from the instructor that you trained with for years. Not someone who gives you a certificate as a favor. If your instructor felt you were good enough and understood the art... they would have given your the Certificate and blessing. And would have been proud to have you represent them in the art as a certified teacher. If they did not... then it is clear there was a reason they did not. Most instructors will have you assist or teach classes under them. Helping you become an instructor. Again... if they did not do this... it's a problem in my eyes.

I was saddened to see some people on this forum advocate for someone else to actually forge a certificate. This is a problem. You greatly diminish the public's respect to martial arts if you falsely represent your ability. This is just wrong.

Now without naming the person.... I will say that I know of the persons ability. And their level of expertise. And understand why their past instructor did not certify them. I have heard numerous counts of this person in the area and their misrepresenting themselves. Even recently I had a new student come from another school. And there is lots of stories about this persons expertise... or lack of and what is going on. This person's name has come back to me over and over from various instructors.

Now one can stop an individual from misrepresenting themselves to the public. You would have hoped that your training in martial arts gave you more code of conduct as a martial arts and a human to do such.

Let me preface my post by saying that I reached the "teaching" rank in my primary art (so was approved to teach it), and have instructor certification built into my own curriculum, so I have no problem with those processes existing.

I disagree, almost entirely, with the idea that someone must be approved to teach before they have something of value. Nor do they need the blessing of their instructor (unless they gave their word they wouldn't teach without it). Someone saying they are an instructor isn't lying unless they don't instruct. Now, saying they are a certified or approved instructor when they are not is entirely different. Saying they are an instructor within an organization (if said organization has standards for approved instructors) is different. But some independent martial artist teaching at his own school/program is an instructor, regardless of rank earned. There's no misrepresentation.

Note that my main disagreement is twofold, Firstly, that a given rank makes a better instructor, as an absolute. There are people who teach quite well, well shy of the "teacher" rank in their style. There are also very senior martial artists with rank well beyond the "teacher" rank who are not very good at teaching (including some who have been teaching many years).

Now, I don't know who the individual is that you are talking about (and, mind, bashing and fraud busting isn't allowed here, anyway), so I can't speak to that situation. But your blanket statement doesn't sit well with me as a generic statement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the individual actually teaches you something that is useful and I don't mean conceptually thought up...and never tested. But something that will actually help you... Then you paid for some martial arts training. If on the same hand the person said they were certified to teach Kenpo Karate lets say... and produces a fake cert.... or says they are... Then yes... you learned something from them... that still is something that you are able to apply. But in the same respect you were ripped off and misrepresented.

It's like having work done on your house. If the person says they are a licensed electrician and they do the work... and it short circuits or causes a fire... Dammm you were really ripped off. Even if it works.... you were still ripped off cause you thought it was a licensed electrician.

My point is about misrepresentation. Like my disclaimer said... the paper does not mean you know what you are doing. You can still be skilled without it. Or you can be without the paper... without the skill... know it and still rip people off. And that is what I see happening.

You seem to be conflating "ripped off" and "lied to". If they taught you what you went there to be taught, then you weren't ripped off. If they said they were certified, but weren't, then you were lied to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No disrespect....
But the topic was Misrepresenting yourself....(be it a false piece of paper or ability)....

So Jobo... to answer your question in my opinion.... for what it's worth...
What is someone walking in the door to begin with. Are they learning for the sake of just learning the art.? Are they asking to learn the art to protect themselves.? What is the reason? Are they asking to get in shape via the art? What is their intent? And if the instructor says yes.... this art will give you self defense... and it really doesn't... then again... they are misrepresenting what they teach and themselves. It's a rip off.

All misrepresentation. Instructors should be clear on their ability, their level of certification if any, and what the student can expect out of the training. If they are not doing this... it's misrepresentation. And hence.... shame on them for doing it.

Okay, here's a different issue. There are instructors who think what they teach will work. Some are wrong about that. Are they lying, or just misinformed?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not all arts or schools give a certificate. What do you do if you learned from a school which did not give certificates, but due to campus bylaws or zoning regulations, you must be certified in order to teach in the area you want to teach?

Find someone who will issue a certificate. In a case like that, I don't see anything shady in getting a certificate from a source I would normally consider dishonest to use (because it's about the intent)..

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree...
He totally is


What do you think about someone who claims to be a teacher and is not... Is delusional about their ability. Goes somewhere(other school).... and gets their butt handed to them in a sparring situation by some students who has only trained a year. YET..... they still claim they are an instructor.... and wishes to create false papers saying they are... and poses they are??

Firstly, they are a teacher, if they are teaching.

Secondly, there are a lot of factors that could go into that sparring scenario, so seeing just those details I can imagine it either being a really bad martial artist who is teaching, a really skilled 1st year student (they exist), and several other things that require neither or both.

The false papers are another issue, if they intend to use them to represent themselves with a rank/approval they do not have. Of course, we'd also have to determine what you mean by "false papers".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I never heard that is a teacher is not allowed to give certifications due to any laws... I am not aware of this in the States.....

It's not about the teacher not being allowed to give certifications - some arts/systems simply do not. And in some places, they are required (I've run into it) to be able to teach/run a program there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes. That's a lot more clear.
And now I also understand a little more. Since I see you were part of the original post.... and you offered some good suggestions.

So... yes... some people are going to require you to show proof of what you are saying... and they require it.
1. The school he trained in does rank and has given blessings etc... to students that have trained. So that is not the situation.
Another case in my area is that some people outright bought certifications without any training in the art.

2. If that person wants to teach somewhere that requires it... go and get it. Go to another school and demonstrate skill and knowledge and acquire it under them. Absolutely an answer... Then you can teach at the location that requires proof.

3. You other option... go teach elsewhere that doesn't require it. Sure... but do not say you are a sifu. Do not misrepresent yourself. Do not go and buy a paper or lie to people saying your are a teacher... or mislead people. That is dishonest.

4. Your last option is perfect... It's being totally honest what you are doing.

Your cut suggestions below.
************************************************************************
Off the top of my head, here are 3 ideas:

1. If your lineage has a letterhead, ask someone well respected in your lineage to draft a certificate for you with a rank like Instructor, Chief Instructor, or Master (depending on what you feel is appropriate for your level). Explain to them it's merely a formality to satisfy requirements at the location you wish to teach.
   
   
2. Find a different college with more lax requirements, or who may be willing to discuss with you and understand there aren't ranks in your art.
   
   
3. Find a location to teach that isn't at a college. Lots of gyms will have areas you can rent for classes. The advantage here is that your students can get a workout at the same location if they want.

************************************************************************

Of your three suggestions, the first is workable in some cases, but only if you can find someone willing to do it (which may be harder to do that I think you expect). I think you misunderstand how easy it is to find (and fund) space to teach in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You may expect too much out of the MA training.

When your teacher teaches you how to swing your Guan Dao to cut your opponent's head off, it's very difficult to associate that with "respect", and "kindness".

Some people use the word "kill". Others use the words "help someone to go to heaven." No matter which term that you may use, the behavior is all the same.

I don't think it's a stretch to say people can learn to act with respect and kindness while training in MA. The same is true of any situation where they have to "place nicely" with other people, regardless of what they're training to do there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't disagree, but the type of pie is important. I don't much care for coconut cream, for example. But I do approve of pie, in general.

The level of experience the pie has matters, too. Though it's an inverse relationship to how much I like it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's not about the teacher not being allowed to give certifications - some arts/systems simply do not. And in some places, they are required (I've run into it) to be able to teach/run a program there.

I don't require a certificate to teach Jow Ga. The certificate only comes into play in the context of me being part of an organization. A person doesn't need a certificate to fix computers, but if you want to be recognized by Cisco or CompTIA as someone who they will vouch for then you'll need a certificate.

I didn't have an instructor's certification when I taught the the Jow Ga school I used to attend. However my right to instruct was approved on multiple levels. Would I create my own certificate? Personally no, but that's only because I don't put much weight into them when it comes to martial arts, unless someone wants to learn from a specific organization. If my customers care about it, then I would open my own school outside of my organization and then certify myself as Chief Instructor. It would be less of a certification and more of an acknowledgement that all certifications for my organization comes through me. As I gain more students then my title would naturally increase in order to make room for the new leaders within my organization.

If someone needed a certification for employment at a college then that would be the better way to do it in comparison to say that certification was earned under another. It would just be easier to say "I trained under."

From reading the OP's post it would seem that things are less about the certification and more about how the person presented himself.

I know of people who were certified instructors and certified Sifu's only to get kicked out of the organization that they belonged to. While the person can still claim to be a Sifu he can no longer claim to be a Sifu of that organization. Basically the certification that he had is void so any new certification will either be of his own creation or by a third party not related to Jow Ga.

 

[hoshin1600]

Pie is only valid with whip cream on top.....just sayin

 

[hoshin1600]

There are some problems with the OP analogy of the contractor building something for you. The analogy has a customer receiving a finished product. It is the product that is the problem not the contractor. You could be an unlicensed or a licenced contractor, what matters is the delivery of a product that meets specifications.
In martial arts there is no such thing as a finished product, there is only a journey. What matters most is the shared relationship between the student and the teacher. Most students today will have a continuum of teacher/ student relationships. If the teacher inspired you to keep training and learning more, they did their job. If the student enjoyed his time training , then there was value in it.
All the rest of this chatter about rank and learning to fight is ego, resentment and bitterness.

 

[hoshin1600]

we could also turn the problem around,
there are 100% legit high ranking instructors who may be the head of complete organizations, but if they are arrogant and narcissistic and this person was your first teacher....you leave discouraged never to return to martial arts because "HE was supposed to be the best" and you let that bias ruin all the potential of what you could have been.