Real or Misrepresented

[Master Todd Miller]

BTW Eric was 5'7" while he was at my school. I hope that he will learn somthing from this whole thing. There is nothing wrong with being a student, white belt, blue belt, black belt or master! There is no need to pretend, just train and the rest will come at the right time.

Take care
Todd M.

 

[NYCRonin]

As stated, there is no shame. If you 'come to the gate' with truth and sincerity - so many doors can be opened for you.
Perhaps, finally; the truth shall set him free.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

You're right, Arnisador...that was in poor taste.

I've pulled it.


SCS

 

[arnisador]

Edited--ignore.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[lonekimono]

Hey todd ,now don't take this the wrong way
but why do you call yourself Master todd miller?
is it because you want all the people to know that??
or is it because that word that you put in front of your name is like the s on superman's chest ?? you know i'm from the old school
sorry but it seem's that the new breed of karate-ka's today want it like that. don't get all red in the face and catch feeling's over what i said,but if you are a master that what you do and how you act will tell the story.:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

if someone has earned enough rank to earn a title, I, for one, have no problem with them using it.

 

[lonekimono]

like i said Kris i'm from the old school sorry if u got upset

 

[Nightingale]

I just thought that the way you asked the question was rather rude.

 

[pknox]

Very good point, Nightingale. I feel the same way, but realize that is not universal.

Just to play devil's advocate, think about this - if someone were a Shihan or even a Soke, you would rightly refer to them as such in correspondence with them, or when describing them to someone else. In traditional Karate circles, at least, if they refer to themselves as such, or demand the title be used, that is looked down upon. As an example, I know an individual who, to my knowledge, is the highest ranking living practitioner in his style (7th dan). When being referred to, he is often called "Shihan" - a title he absolutely deserves. However, he never refers to himself as anything other than "Sensei", which seems to be the way it is done in Japan as well (this is a Japanese style I am referring to).

Usually, the honorific title is also only used within the style itself, as well. A kung fu or Muay Thai stylist would most likely refer to this individual as "Bill", as opposed to Shihan, or even "Sensei." Occasionally, if a person is knowledgable about the honorifics used in the style, they use it even if they don't train with the individual. For example, while I don't study Kung Fu, I would have no problem calling a high ranking individual "Sifu." Not all people feel that way, however. I have called Japanese instructors "Sensei" before, and they have corrected me, saying that while they are a teacher, they are not my teacher, and I should only call my own teacher Sensei. Sometimes they do let you get away with it, such as if you can't pronounce their name correctly.

Note: I'm not saying anyone here is doing any of this, nor using the analogy to refer to a specific person; I'm just making a point.

 

[lonekimono]

first let me say that if you took it that way i'm sorry
you know something kris i see that you train kenpo and if you know your kenpo(and you should after i looked at you profile)
than you should know that Mr Parker never called himself anything but "ED Parker" now in front of students than it would be the title that comes with the rank.
now pete i'm sorry ,but i'm not a rude man but it seems that if someone said's something that some other person don't like well than it becomes wrong, or someone will say that person who said that is rude, like what was said about me.
people should look at themself's before saying something about somebody else!
now as for what i said it seems to me that kris caught some kind of feeling about it why,and another thing my life is a open book you can go to the profile and see it i don't care.
you know i'm going to leave it this way,someone said this i wonder who??

"know what you know,know why it's so

 

[pknox]

George:

My post was not at all directed at you - I was only using an example. I really hope you didn't take it that way, as that surely was not my intention. If you did, I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[arnisador]

I didn't find the question rude. I think it's reasonable to ask a person about their titles--in some ways, that's waht this thread is about. Of course, it's always best to keep it a general discussion rather than about a particular person!

It's one thing for students to call a person Master, but I too would question whether it's appropriate for someone to sign themselves that way.

In some styles "Master" is given as a title and perhaps it's considered OK amongst themselves. But, my thinking is that if you need to tell people that you're a master, then...maybe you aren't.

There are English precedents as well, such as the "Hon." title that politicians get--one doesn't use it to refer to oneself. But really, "Master" should be a title bestowed by students, I think.

It may be fully appropriate in Mr. Miller's system but as a rule I find it a bit self-important.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador
It's one thing for students to call a person Master, but I too would question whether it's appropriate for someone to sign themselves that way.

In some styles "Master" is given as a title and perhaps it's considered OK amongst themselves. But, my thinking is that if you need to tell people that you're a master, then...maybe you aren't.

There are English precedents as well, such as the "Hon." title that politicians get--one doesn't use it to refer to oneself. But really, "Master" should be a title bestowed by students, I think.

It may be fully appropriate in Mr. Miller's system but as a rule I find it a bit self-important.

Not To Defend Mr Miller, as I am sure he can do so for himself.

Yet, I think he choose his name on purpose. His First Post was to put some things straight about certain people making claims in his system.

Now, A question to you Arnisador, do you think it is fine for students to call a person Master? Or should that title come from his peers who are also Masters? Does the person being called master have to correct the students to not call him master? Or should this master just allow the use of the title?

If necessary, I or someone else can split this into a new thread.

:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

it wasn't the question itself that I found rude, it was the way it was asked.

A simple

"why do you choose to use the title of "master" on this board" would have been sufficient.

the "superman" comment was entirely unnecessary.

 

[Reprobate]

Well, I'm used to my instructor being referred to by others as Erik Louw sensei, but I've always called him Erik.

I only call some of the Japanese instructors [Yamada Hironobu and Hatakeyama Goro] 'sensei', not out of reverence, but because that is what they are: 'teacher'.
No-one I've met called himself 'sensei' or any other title.

Without wishing to reflect on Mister Miller's background or skill level, to put Master before one's name comes across [to me] as foppish [no insult intended]. Especially in these times when complete incompetents call themselves 'Grandmaster' This and 'Soke' That, I'd just stick with my ranking below my name...

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Now, A question to you Arnisador, do you think it is fine for students to call a person Master? Or should that title come from his peers who are also Masters? Does the person being called master have to correct the students to not call him master? Or should this master just allow the use of the title?

I certainly don't want to make this about Mr. Miller. It may be appropriate and accepted in his system.

Speaking more generally, I am in sympathy with what pknox described as the traditional karate approach. I think it is traditional in more than just karate--like sifu and sigung in the CMA, which are largely student-bestowed (it's how one addresses one's teacher and one's teacher's teacher).

It seems more and more common nowadays for "master" rank to be given out part-and-parcel with certain dan rankings. But it doesn't matter so much to me if it comes from students, peers, or higher-ranking instructors--I simply find it unseemly--self-important-- to say "Hi, I'm Master John Doe!" I realize one's ability cannot easily speak for itself on the Net--though knowledge still shines through--but I still can't help but think that a title like "Master" has more meaning between student and teacher. Why would someone want me to know that he or she was a master?

 

[lonekimono]

thats ok pete i'm sorry about the mix up.
look let me put it this way,about a month ago i was out on the west coast teaching at the gathering, and i met alot of Grandmasters, and masters of the arts and by the way if you want to see some of them go to my site www.ackks.com
and go to pictures and clik on "west coast pictures
tell me you know these people??
anyway these people are down to earth and they don't care,and i'm the same way, now don't get me wrong like i said before if i met mr todd and he was with some of his students i would say hello master todd , why because he was with his students and that the way it should be.
and his students should call him that if thats the way it is in his school.
but in here why i'm only 48 but the numbers go up not down.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Reprobate
to put Master before one's name comes across [to me] as foppish [no insult intended]. Especially in these times when complete incompetents call themselves 'Grandmaster' This and 'Soke' That

Yes, that's part of it too--in an age of inflated titles, it sticks out all the more.

 

[lonekimono]

Hey nightingale do u know what i meant when i said that about superman??
i don't think you do, because if you did than ,oh the he#@ with it

well anyway do you remember this song??

the man said " don't think twice it's alright"

now i'll wait and see if you think thats rude to say also.
i don't know but why are people so ,i better stop here:rofl:

 

[Jay Bell]

Originally posted by pknox
Very good point, Nightingale. I feel the same way, but realize that is not universal.

Just to play devil's advocate, think about this - if someone were a Shihan or even a Soke, you would rightly refer to them as such in correspondence with them, or when describing them to someone else. In traditional Karate circles, at least, if they refer to themselves as such, or demand the title be used, that is looked down upon. As an example, I know an individual who, to my knowledge, is the highest ranking living practitioner in his style (7th dan). When being referred to, he is often called "Shihan" - a title he absolutely deserves. However, he never refers to himself as anything other than "Sensei", which seems to be the way it is done in Japan as well (this is a Japanese style I am referring to).

This really isn't proper. When speaking *of* a Soke or Shihan, the title may be used. It is incorrect to use the title when speaking *to* that individual. Referring to yourself as anything but a title is silly in my opinion.

"Anyone who refers to himself as a 'master', isn't" - Yuko Takamura, Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

However, Korean arts have their own way of doing things -- Multiple Grandmasters and numerous Masters. They have their own thoughts as to proper usage, which is not shared by Japan. To each their own I guess.