Shame on you.... for misrepresenting yourself.... and your ability.

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Rubbish. My KJN is 76 years old. I've got any number of 1 year students who could no doubt beat him sparring.

Doesn't change how much he knows, nor does it affect his ability to pass that knowledge on.

And I am sure your 1 year students would not misrepresent themselves as an instructor...

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have a slightly different take on what the OP Posted

I think it is specifically about those who claim to be something they are not based on certs that for all intents and purposes that they bought. They are misrepresenting themselves based on a meaningless certificate they got from a non-reputable source. And there is no way for many new students to know this and if they stay it simply adds to the destruction of the style. This is, IMO, robbing the student.

There are, most unfortunately, those who trained hard in a specific style and got all the belts and worked there way up but they simply do not get it, but they have been awarded belts based on their year long contracts and time in school.... but most certainly not on their level of skill.

Or the head teacher is rather skilled, but no longer wishes to teach, so he promotes some of his students to teach, but those students are sub-par....saw this in a Hapkido school once and it was rather sad to see. The head instructor had an impressive background and was awarded his rather high rank in Korea, but the student that were learning form his senior student had no idea how to throw a proper kick. The head instructor just sat and watched, and collected the checks

There are teacher who are great marital artists, but horrible teachers

There are teacher who are highly skilled and well trained but age is catching up with them. In this case what matters it the skill and knowledge they have that they pass on to others.

There are also good teachers that train their students well.

 

[skribs]

So we are talking about that post! So this isn't a case of someone fraudulently stating their credentials. It's just getting a piece of paper to meet a requirement.

1. Verbal blessings yes, written blessings no. You've learned, but not gotten the piece of paper.
2. And by the time you join that school, pay them a bunch of money, and spend years learning THEIR curriculum, the job opening you were trying to take isn't there anymore, and you still are not qualified to teach the art you wanted to teach.
3. Um...what? How does this even apply to the situation we're talking about. Let's say I spent 10 years training a style of Kung Fu that has no ranks or certificates. I can't teach Kung Fu at a college because there's no certificate. But I can open my own school and teach Kung Fu. It's not like I trained Kung Fu for 10 years and then wanted to go open up a Judo school.

The entire post you're referencing wasn't talking about someone taking 3 Kung Fu classes and then trying to buy a certificate that says they're a 5th degree black belt. It was about someone with a lot of experience in a rankless art, trying to teach the art at a place where they require a certificate.

 

[skribs]

I have a slightly different take on what the OP Posted

I think it is specifically about those who claim to be something they are not based on certs that for all intents and purposes that they bought. They are misrepresenting themselves based on a meaningless certificate they got from a non-reputable source. And there is no way for many new students to know this and if they stay it simply adds to the destruction of the style. This is, IMO, robbing the student.

There are, most unfortunately, those who trained hard in a specific style and got all the belts and worked there way up but they simply do not get it, but they have been awarded belts based on their year long contracts and time in school.... but most certainly not on their level of skill.

Or the head teacher is rather skilled, but no longer wishes to teach, so he promotes some of his students to teach, but those students are sub-par....saw this in a Hapkido school once and it was rather sad to see. The head instructor had an impressive background and was awarded his rather high rank in Korea, but the student that were learning form his senior student had no idea how to throw a proper kick. The head instructor just sat and watched, and collected the checks

There are teacher who are great marital artists, but horrible teachers

There are teacher who are highly skilled and well trained but age is catching up with them. In this case what matters it the skill and knowledge they have that they pass on to others.

There are also good teachers that train their students well.

Based on the comments he made to me in this thread, he's talking about a post a while back where someone had training in an art, and wanted to apply at a university, but the university required him to have a paper certificate that proves he was qualified to teach the art. The problem isn't that he wasn't qualified - it's that he had no paper to prove it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

And I am sure your 1 year students would not misrepresent themselves as an instructor...

Of course not. But your premise was that somehow, an instructor who loses a sparring match is no longer qualified to be an instructor.
And that's just rubbish.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Based on the comments he made to me in this thread, he's talking about a post a while back where someone had training in an art, and wanted to apply at a university, but the university required him to have a paper certificate that proves he was qualified to teach the art. The problem isn't that he wasn't qualified - it's that he had no paper to prove it.

I know the situation and I know who the OP is talking and I know the teachers of the person the OP is talking about.....and all I have to say is I agree with the OP

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Based on the comments he made to me in this thread, he's talking about a post a while back where someone had training in an art, and wanted to apply at a university, but the university required him to have a paper certificate that proves he was qualified to teach the art. The problem isn't that he wasn't qualified - it's that he had no paper to prove it.

My original post was actually pertaining to several people.

The post you are talking about... from the past.
The problem skrib is that he isn't qualified... I know for a fact. I know his Sifu. So I am saying he misrepresented himself here also.

 

[skribs]

My original post was actually pertaining to several people.

The post you are talking about... from the past.
The problem skrib is that he isn't qualified... I know for a fact. I know his Sifu. So I am saying he misrepresented himself here also.

In that case I'd bring it up in the thread you're talking about. Although I'm not sure how that meshes with the fraud-busting rules on this forum.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

Of course not. But your premise was that somehow, an instructor who loses a sparring match is no longer qualified to be an instructor.
And that's just rubbish.

Sir,
My original premise is about misrepresenting oneself. The individual did just that. He is not an instructor. Presents himself as one.
Also delusional in their ability.... lost sparring against people with less than one year training. And continued to misrepresent his ability and himself as an instructor.

I have seen this in other spots also.

And I totally agree. I am not saying if an instructor loses a sparring match he is not qualified to teach. Definitely not saying that.

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

In that case I'd bring it up in the thread you're talking about. Although I'm not sure how that meshes with the fraud-busting rules on this forum.

Skribs...
I don't care too.
I didn't relate it back to that post because I have noticed it in many regards. Several individuals in my area that are misrepresenting themselves to the public. It's a problem in Martial Arts. Esp. in my area. The public goes in believing the "instructor" of the school. They have no basis to judge. They most of the time lack any training themselves... So how can they judge. So this is really a GENERAL problem happening. People saying they are what they are not. And I do not wish to single anyone out. Hence I posted it general as not to reflect on any one individual. In General I have seen people purchase certificates, falsely say they are something that they are not. And it goes unchecked. And there is not any governing body to hold anyone accountable. It's a shame... I let it go locally. There is nothing that I could or want to do about it.

I bring it up here... because I thought it would hold for an interesting conversation where Martial Arts is headed. Many people depend on it's reputation to make a living. Thankfully I do not.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you're talking about individuals, then you're about to run afoul of the fraud busting rules here. If you talking about generalities, then what you're saying is, as I said, rubbish. Plenty of good instructors can no longer fight. I fancy I'm a decent instructor, and I certainly cannot spar the way I did 30 years ago.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well this went bad fast and a lot of folks took it personally......

If you're talking about individuals, then you're about to run afoul of the fraud busting rules here. If you talking about generalities, then what you're saying is, as I said, rubbish. Plenty of good instructors can no longer fight. I fancy I'm a decent instructor, and I certainly cannot spar the way I did 30 years ago.

If there is anyone running afoul here it would me skribs and myself since we both related it to an individual who we did not name. the OP was posting a generalization

You know between Korean martial arts historian experts that seem to be able to run rampant here...and...well nuff said

Y'all have fun storming the castle, I'm taking a break from here for a day or so.....and contemplating on whether Dale Dugas was right

 

[NYFIGHTSOURCE]

If you're talking about individuals, then you're about to run afoul of the fraud busting rules here. If you talking about generalities, then what you're saying is, as I said, rubbish. Plenty of good instructors can no longer fight. I fancy I'm a decent instructor, and I certainly cannot spar the way I did 30 years ago.

Yeah....
I am not the same person I was 30 years ago either!!!!

 

[drop bear]

Everyone joins an MA for different reasons. Fighting/SD is one of them, but IMO it’s less and less of a priority as time goes by. Not even as time goes by for the student, but more and more people come in with less of a priority to defend themselves over the years.

Regarding misrepresentation, some of that is true. But there’s quite a few who genuinely bought into what they were taught and saw it work in class, so they “know” it works. MAists don’t work out with people outside their school much anymore. They don’t test those things against others. So the guy (hypothetical guy) teaches what he knows and accepts. He’s not misrepresenting anything. Delusions of grandeur perhaps, but if he’s not knowingly and intentionally selling BS, it’s pretty hard to call him a fraud. Idiot, yes; fraud, no.

No I think you can be both.

 

[drop bear]

Rubbish. My KJN is 76 years old. I've got any number of 1 year students who could no doubt beat him sparring.

Doesn't change how much he knows, nor does it affect his ability to pass that knowledge on.

Yeah. I think correct form is to go in and spar a bunch of their top guys. And make a judgment from there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Everyone joins an MA for different reasons. Fighting/SD is one of them, but IMO it’s less and less of a priority as time goes by.

I used to think MA training is only good for fighting.

My long fist teacher is 92 years old today. If you train MA and never have to use it, but if it can help you to live through your 100 years old birthday, your MA training will have great value.

 

[skribs]

Well this went bad fast and a lot of folks took it personally......



If there is anyone running afoul here it would me skribs and myself since we both related it to an individual who we did not name. the OP was posting a generalization

You know between Korean martial arts historian experts that seem to be able to run rampant here...and...well nuff said

Y'all have fun storming the castle, I'm taking a break from here for a day or so.....and contemplating on whether Dale Dugas was right

The last half of his OP made it very clear he had a specific thread and individual in mind.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well this went bad fast and a lot of folks took it personally......

I think you're reading in more than was said.

If there is anyone running afoul here it would me skribs and myself since we both related it to an individual who we did not name. the OP was posting a generalization

I wasn't addressing an individual. I was making a statement.
If a thread says "you shouldn't be dishonest" then well duh.
If a thread says "this person is dishonest" then we have a fraudbusting problem.
If a thread says "you can't teach if you can't fight" then we have a nonsense claim.

 

[Martial D]

Martial Arts is something to me more than just the ability to fight. Some people get into martial arts initially to be able to defend themselves but over the course of time you also develop so many more positive attributes from training. Usually you never end up needing to defend yourself cause you also learn how to walk away from confrontation and avoid it.

You develop self discipline, self confidence, hopefully a better moral code in life in general. You learn respect and honor. You treat others with kindness. You evolve and usually become a better person.

So I ask this question. If you were not a contractor and you hired someone to build an addition on your house.. who you thought they knew what they were doing. And later found out that you got ripped off and paid tons of money to find out it was all done wrong. Or if you hired someone to fix your car and to just find that it was worse. How would you feel?

This happens in the martial arts. People misrepresent themselves. And well I have an issue with that. If you say you are a Master, a Sifu, a Guru, etc. Then dammit.... be that. Do not lie and say you are if your Sensei or instructor would have never awarded you the Certificate to teach. Do not claim to be what you are not.
Also people who pay for some certificate from a online place is a scam also. Obviously they also have no moral in misrepresenting themselves. I have seen people in my area pay hundreds of dollars to an organization so that they can they are certified by that organization. Even when the instructor has long been dead. Just cause the spouse of the instructor finds it as a source of income to do mail order Certificates. Suddenly someone who has become an Instructor of art X over night. Come on. Now most people training in the arts will see this as for what it is. But for the young child who is becoming a student and their parents who is paying good money and time and effort to get their child there should get what they paid for. Not a scam. This is disgraceful. And ultimately it's the downfall that is causing people to shy away from training. Esp. in the traditional arts.

Disclaimer..... I am not saying that a piece of paper will make you a good fighter. I know a lot of people who are great fighters... without that piece of paper. But if you are teaching and claiming that you are an instructor of that art... then you should have the blessing from the instructor that you trained with for years. Not someone who gives you a certificate as a favor. If your instructor felt you were good enough and understood the art... they would have given your the Certificate and blessing. And would have been proud to have you represent them in the art as a certified teacher. If they did not... then it is clear there was a reason they did not. Most instructors will have you assist or teach classes under them. Helping you become an instructor. Again... if they did not do this... it's a problem in my eyes.

I was saddened to see some people on this forum advocate for someone else to actually forge a certificate. This is a problem. You greatly diminish the public's respect to martial arts if you falsely represent your ability. This is just wrong.

Now without naming the person.... I will say that I know of the persons ability. And their level of expertise. And understand why their past instructor did not certify them. I have heard numerous counts of this person in the area and their misrepresenting themselves. Even recently I had a new student come from another school. And there is lots of stories about this persons expertise... or lack of and what is going on. This person's name has come back to me over and over from various instructors.

Now one can stop an individual from misrepresenting themselves to the public. You would have hoped that your training in martial arts gave you more code of conduct as a martial arts and a human to do such.

I made a similar post once that caused a **** storm of dislikes, outrage, and general buthurt from a lot of people. The fact yours isn't being received that way is encouraging.

Nowadays I just say buyer beware. There's a heck of a lot of nonsense being taught out there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You learn respect and honor. You treat others with kindness.

You may expect too much out of the MA training.

When your teacher teaches you how to swing your Guan Dao to cut your opponent's head off, it's very difficult to associate that with "respect", and "kindness".

Some people use the word "kill". Others use the words "help someone to go to heaven." No matter which term that you may use, the behavior is all the same.