Shame on you.... for misrepresenting yourself.... and your ability.

[Dan Draper]

i think you maybe talking to an empty room, i dont know if xue has left the forum, just ive not seen him post in quite a while

its seems a bit pointless therefore to vent your spleen at someone who very well may not see your sentiments

If I just joined, how would I know if he has left? Not quite grasping that.

 

[Headhunter]

Yeah because I just joined and happened to see it...thought it was worth a remark since I do know the situation...didn't pay attention to the dates. It happens.

Hmmmmm.....so you join up and then straight away you just happen to see a year old thread that would be quite far down the forums list and it just so happens to be something you know about?....yeah I don't buy that

 

[jobo]

If I just joined, how would I know if he has left? Not quite grasping that.

If I just joined, how would I know if he has left? Not quite grasping that.

you could click on his profile to see when he was last active.

as it is i was just saving you the bother of working yourself up in to a lather to no one in particular

dont dispare, there are lots of active threads that have descended to to petty personal attacks, you could join in one of them

 

[Steve]

I'm sorry I missed this one. There's a guy named Thorstein Veblen, an economist from the early 1900s, who talks about something called ceremonial dominance and ceremonial adequacy, which is the heart of this debate. As I understand it, ceremonial dominance is when society applies some kind of a social overlay to something, which often has no bearing on the thing itself. Ceremonial adequacy refers to whether or not someone meets the criteria.

For example, a person can go to a college for 3 years and 11 months. At that point, the education is functionally the same as someone who goes for 4 years. But the person who gets the diploma is ceremonially adequate. Which means society at large recognizes his or her education. In the same way, a dude who trains for 10 years in a style, but never gets a black belt may have skills. However, to society at large, there is little difference between that guy and someone who's never trained at all. Neither are ceremonially adequate.

Anyway, it's an interesting discussion. Good arguments for both sides of it.

 

[Steve]

Reading through the thread, I think @skribs and @gpseymour discussed certification as a statutory requirement for opening an MA business. Can someone share an example of a place where a person needs a special certification in order to teach a martial art? Some trades require a certification or a license to operate. I'm not aware of 1: any regulatory board that oversees martial arts or 2: any statutory requirement anywhere that one be certified to teach any martial art. I'm pretty sure that as long as you get your business license and give Uncle Sugar his cut, you are good to go.

Here's a site that pretty succinctly outlines the steps involved in starting a martial arts business: How to Start a Martial Arts Studio

Notably absent is being a competent and credible martial artist. Now, don't get me wrong. I think it's important to be credible, and a certificate of rank can help with that. But I would be very surprised if anywhere in the USA, that is essential to opening the business.

 

[skribs]

Reading through the thread, I think @skribs and @gpseymour discussed certification as a statutory requirement for opening an MA business. Can someone share an example of a place where a person needs a special certification in order to teach a martial art? Some trades require a certification or a license to operate. I'm not aware of 1: any regulatory board that oversees martial arts or 2: any statutory requirement anywhere that one be certified to teach any martial art. I'm pretty sure that as long as you get your business license and give Uncle Sugar his cut, you are good to go.

In Taekwondo, you need to be certified with an organization. Technically anyone could open an unaffiliated school, but those are generally seen as less credible.

If someone were to post "is this a good school?" on a Taekwondo site and link to a school called Skribs Taekwondo, and there was nothing that could link me to any organization, everyone would say it's a huge red flag and not to go there. On the other hand, if Skribs Taekwondo was affiliated with Kukkiwon, at least the fact that I were given a rank from them would give me some level of credibility.

With any art with a large organization, you'll need some sort of status from the organization to open a school. Or you can create your own lineage for whatever credibility it will have.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If I just joined, how would I know if he has left? Not quite grasping that.

Out of curiosity, if you just joined, then how do you know whether or not xue knows who is being discussed? I'd agree that you could say he might not know the whole situation, but no one ever does.

The reason I ask is that xue is a pretty private person. So even the people who do post on here a lot and have had interactiond with him generally don't know so much as his name.

Also, unless I missed it, nyfightsource never stated who he was talking about (if he did we may have to review the thread for fraudbusting).

For the record I've got no clue who is being talked about. I could make a pretty reasonable assumption based on the people/their styles but that would require me to know the area. So I've got no dog in the discussion.

 

[Buka]

Well, I also know the situation, and I also know you don't know the person being discussed OR the entire situation. You just went by what NYFIGHTSOURCE said simply because you have known him longer. There is a whole other side to the story that you never bothered to get. And hey, that's your right. However, if you don't know everything, then you should keep your mouth shut...or your fingers off the keyboard, as it were. Since you are only on the peripheral (and, from what I understand, know the person in question only through brief discussions here), there is no way you have all the details.

Also, seeing the character your buddy NY has shown here, he is the LAST person whose version of events I'd find credible. I would consider them to be HIS truth, but not the WHOLE truth. Personally, in a situation where there is more than one person involved, I don't see how anyone can just blindly follow the version of one side just because they know the person telling it.

Is that what you are, Xue? A blind follower? A sheep? Seems like it to me.

First...welcome to Martial Talk, Dan.

Second...don't insult anybody like that. Especially my friend Xue.

 

[Steve]

In Taekwondo, you need to be certified with an organization. Technically anyone could open an unaffiliated school, but those are generally seen as less credible.

If someone were to post "is this a good school?" on a Taekwondo site and link to a school called Skribs Taekwondo, and there was nothing that could link me to any organization, everyone would say it's a huge red flag and not to go there. On the other hand, if Skribs Taekwondo was affiliated with Kukkiwon, at least the fact that I were given a rank from them would give me some level of credibility.

With any art with a large organization, you'll need some sort of status from the organization to open a school. Or you can create your own lineage for whatever credibility it will have.

That makes sense. So, not a legal requirement, but a practical one related to credibility.

 

[Steve]

Out of curiosity, if you just joined, then how do you know whether or not xue knows who is being discussed? I'd agree that you could say he might not know the whole situation, but no one ever does.

The reason I ask is that xue is a pretty private person. So even the people who do post on here a lot and have had interactiond with him generally don't know so much as his name.

Also, unless I missed it, nyfightsource never stated who he was talking about (if he did we may have to review the thread for fraudbusting).

For the record I've got no clue who is being talked about. I could make a pretty reasonable assumption based on the people/their styles but that would require me to know the area. So I've got no dog in the discussion.

I haven’t followed the drama, but I thought this was about that monk guy who posted here a few weeks back.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I haven’t followed the drama, but I thought this was about that monk guy who posted here a few weeks back.

Nope, different one. Without giving too many details from what i can tell this is a cma teacher in upstate new york.

 

[Steve]

Nope, different one. Without giving too many details from what i can tell this is a cma teacher in upstate new york.

Ah, well. Shows how much attention I gave it.

 

[skribs]

That makes sense. So, not a legal requirement, but a practical one related to credibility.

Looking back, I think this was in response to another thread, where someone needed to be credentialed in order to teach a class at the university. He'd trained for several years (or more), but his style didn't give certificates or anything like that. So when he went to the school and said he could open a martial arts class, he had no paperwork to verify he could teach what he taught. So he was trying to figure out the best way to get credentialed in an art that doesn't credential you.

I could be wrong. But that may have been where my comments came from.

 

[Buka]

In Taekwondo, you need to be certified with an organization. Technically anyone could open an unaffiliated school, but those are generally seen as less credible.

If someone were to post "is this a good school?" on a Taekwondo site and link to a school called Skribs Taekwondo, and there was nothing that could link me to any organization, everyone would say it's a huge red flag and not to go there. On the other hand, if Skribs Taekwondo was affiliated with Kukkiwon, at least the fact that I were given a rank from them would give me some level of credibility.

With any art with a large organization, you'll need some sort of status from the organization to open a school. Or you can create your own lineage for whatever credibility it will have.

I trained for some years at Billy Blanks's TKD school, one on the east coast and one on the west coast. The east coast one was one of the best and crazy-hard training places I've ever set foot in.

As far as I recall, it wasn't part of any organization. And I'm glad, I don't really care much for Martial Arts organizations.

 

[drop bear]

Reading through the thread, I think @skribs and @gpseymour discussed certification as a statutory requirement for opening an MA business. Can someone share an example of a place where a person needs a special certification in order to teach a martial art? Some trades require a certification or a license to operate. I'm not aware of 1: any regulatory board that oversees martial arts or 2: any statutory requirement anywhere that one be certified to teach any martial art. I'm pretty sure that as long as you get your business license and give Uncle Sugar his cut, you are good to go.

Here's a site that pretty succinctly outlines the steps involved in starting a martial arts business: How to Start a Martial Arts Studio

Notably absent is being a competent and credible martial artist. Now, don't get me wrong. I think it's important to be credible, and a certificate of rank can help with that. But I would be very surprised if anywhere in the USA, that is essential to opening the business.

Boxing has some sort of licence. And then the boxing organizations have their own licences. And there is a sort of umbrella kickboxing MMA one. But quite often they are not interchangeable. We have had to borrow a licensed boxing coach from time to time to complete.

 

[skribs]

I trained for some years at Billy Blanks's TKD school, one on the east coast and one on the west coast. The east coast one was one of the best and crazy-hard training places I've ever set foot in.

As far as I recall, it wasn't part of any organization. And I'm glad, I don't really care much for Martial Arts organizations.

Yeah, but for every Bill Blank, there's a dozen Master Ken's and a hundred a Rex Kwon Do's.

 

[Steve]

Boxing has some sort of licence. And then the boxing organizations have their own licences. And there is a sort of umbrella kickboxing MMA one. But quite often they are not interchangeable. We have had to borrow a licensed boxing coach from time to time to complete.

sure, but to be clear, those are either internally imposed requirements or legal, sanctioning certificates. You're right that those definitely exist within competitive organizations. But, if I didn't have an interest in competing in sanctioned events, I could legally open a boxing gym or an MMA gym in short order. I'm not saying I'd be successful, just that there's no legal reason I couldn't. Just that all of the hurdles to open a gym are unrelated to my competence or certification within that art. At most, I might have to change the name.

I don't teach MMA. I teach Street Heavy Intensive Training Martial Arts (aka, ****-MA)

 

[skribs]

sure, but to be clear, those are either internally imposed requirements or legal, sanctioning certificates. You're right that those definitely exist within competitive organizations. But, if I didn't have an interest in competing in sanctioned events, I could legally open a boxing gym or an MMA gym in short order. I'm not saying I'd be successful, just that there's no legal reason I couldn't. Just that all of the hurdles to open a gym are unrelated to my competence or certification within that art. At most, I might have to change the name.

I don't teach MMA. I teach Street Heavy Intensive Training Martial Arts (aka, ****-MA)

I know a friend of mine works at a cardio kickboxing place, and they have to be very clear that it's just exercise and not martial arts training.

You might want to re-think your acronym, because a lot of people will turn that against you and say what you're teaching is...

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah, but for every Bill Blank, there's a dozen Master Ken's and a hundred a Rex Kwon Do's.

Yeah, but there are also organizations that automatically cause me to advise folks to stay away from at all costs. Just because of who they are.

And there are folks who are independent and have no connection to an organization. And they rock. Some of the best instruction you could find anywhere. Some of them still have good relationships with their teachers, while others do not and are truly on their own. It does not matter, because they are good at what they do. So they had a falling out with their teacher. So what.

So it really depends.

I’m not a big fan of big organizations. I’m a big fan of people building their own reputation through their own hard work.

 

[Dan Draper]

Out of curiosity, if you just joined, then how do you know whether or not xue knows who is being discussed? I'd agree that you could say he might not know the whole situation, but no one ever does.

The reason I ask is that xue is a pretty private person. So even the people who do post on here a lot and have had interactiond with him generally don't know so much as his name.

Also, unless I missed it, nyfightsource never stated who he was talking about (if he did we may have to review the thread for fraudbusting).

For the record I've got no clue who is being talked about. I could make a pretty reasonable assumption based on the people/their styles but that would require me to know the area. So I've got no dog in the discussion.

I know because, as I stated, I also happen to know who is being discussed. Xue might be private, but the person being discussed and accused of being a fraud is NOT as private. He used to be quite active on here a few years back.

Also, NY might not have mentioned names, but he made it pretty clear he was talking about someone who said he had been offered the chance to teach a full-year course at an upstate NY college, but they wanted a certificate that gave him permission to teach. He could not produce one because the place where he trains just doesn't issue them.

Having said all that, I know the person in question, and he is adamant about NOT being identified as a Sifu. NY is partially right in that he was not certified to teach. However, he was given PERMISSION to teach. NY says he "knows this person's instructor." I guarantee you: he means the person's OLD instructor.

Look at it this way: if you are training at Wing Chun School #1, but then you move away and have to start going to Wing Chun School #2 in order to keep training, then why would you need to be certified to teach by Wing Chun School #? You don't train there anymore! And I doubt school #2 would call school #1 and say, "I want to certify this guy to teach. What do you think?" No, sir. The new school wouldn't contact the old one to get "permission" like that.

I don't know what NY's problem is, because the person in question is someone I have known for a while and talk to regularly. I know that, aside from an email they sent to NY last summer where they apologized for how their relationship went sideways, the unnamed person hasn't even THOUGHT about NY for the last two years. Meanwhile, NY is on this site, bashing away and griping about someone who never even utters his name.

Sad, really.

As for fraudbusting, I am not sure what your rules are about that. Since the person is not named, but it is made pretty clear who NY means by the way he describes their "credentials" thread, I think it would be worth looking at. Then again, it's your site, so what do I know?