Does your school misrepresent the black belt?

[Shicomm]

Opinions may vary and that's what's the case here i think.
General public sticks a different label on a black belt then the MA community.

Because of the huge differences between the various styles it's hard to get a good general 'line' out on "how it should be" .

Maybe it's just good that way , if it would be to mutch 'by the book' it would turn into a less human thing imho.
and shouldnt it remain a human thing after all ?

 

[kidswarrior]

I don't find it surprising that an experienced martial artist might have a different perspective than someone with no experience in martial arts. Isn't that true in many fields of study?
When I talk with anyone very knowledgable in a field I know little about, I find that I have many misperceptions.
"Expert" is relative. I might feel like an expert to someone with no training, but I feel like a beginner when I train with gifted people that have been in the arts far longer than I.

This says it all for me. I can only think of one thing to add, and that's an example.

I went through Navy boot camp in 1971. It was *only* nine weeks. But those were 16, 18, 20 or more hour days, and the intensity was nonstop. About half our company dropped out, earning themselves General, or 'For the good of the government' discharges. Those of us who survived were not even close to anything like we were on the bus ride to NTC. Put us up against a first-day boot, and to an outsider, it would likely appear to be a man vs. boy comparison; I know the graduating recruits would see it that way.

On the other hand, after a few days leave when I got to A school, I was a scrub again. Six months of school, at six hours a day, was the equivalent of a two-year A.A. degree.

Then it was on to C school, and at the bottom again. All-night duty every third night. This mostly entailed being awakened to pick up corpses in a huge teaching hospital, and taking them what seemed like miles away down long, dark, not-a-soul-around corridors and then singlehandedly manhandling the bodies onto a morgue tray. Add in a whole bunch of other ghoulish things that were part of the curriculum, and after about a year in the service I'd completed my training. Lotta water under the bridge since first climbing off that bus for intake at NTC, San Diego.

Nine weeks, six months, one year, two years. Did I ever become an expert? To a new Boot, I was an expert after my first week of boot camp. To a 17-year Chief, I didn't even register on his radar till I'd made E-5 after about two years (much faster in those days--so many *empty boots* and all ). And since that was before we ever had civilian EMTs and all that great stuff, when I got out it all counted for nothing. Only job I could get in the field was driving an ambulance on the graveyard shift for minimum wage, even though I'd done procedures even some civilian doctors hadn't done--cause in the service, they don't worry about lawsuits and such. So I took a job in a factory instead.

So, guess I'm saying we gotta be careful in making comparisons. Everyone's story is different.

 

[Flying Crane]

I was speaking with a friend the other day, who began his training back in the 1950s. He spent time training kung fu in San Francisco's Chinatown, as well as some Japanese stuff and some of the early mainland kenpo. He told me a story of when he and a couple of the caucasian students from the Kenpo school wandered into Chinatown, and they got hassled by one of the Chinese gangs because his friends weren't Chinese. Things got a bit ugly, but his friends held their own and actually sort of cleaned house. These two guys were kenpo brown belts, and my friend's comment to me was that he felt rank has changed over the years and rank today often does not mean the same that it did back then. He even went so far as to say a brown belt of that era had the fighting competence of a sandan of today. That's his opinion and I'm not in a position to comment on it. But anyway, training methods were more brutal and heavy on the contact without protection. Nobody was worried about liability. Our social norms have changed a lot since then. Perhaps knowledge today is more sophisticated, but it often does not get tested to the same extreme as it did a few decades ago.

The other thing is that when the West was first becomming familiar with the arts, many of those beginning to teach them had learned them overseas during military service. These people were not high ranking black belts. They were probably shodans and nidans, and not much more than that. But they were the resident experts, because there was nobody else to compare them to, and they were doing the teaching. So the public's opinion of rank was probably built upon this early reality that may or may not still be accurate.

Nowadays people are reaching higher ranks, for better or for worse, and it becomes easier to marginalize the lower dan ranks, whether it's warranted or not. With higher ranks available, it also makes it possible and more acceptable in teh eyes of many people, to lower standards and make it easier to reach the lower dan ranks.

 

[shihansmurf]

So, guess I'm saying we gotta be careful in making comparisons. Everyone's story is different.

First off, Thanks for serving.

Second I gotta say to the above quote, you are spot on.

The "standards" for black vary so much form school to school, let alone system to system that I don't think a real answer is possible to the OP's question.

I know I am very upfront with new students when I tell them that the white to shodanho is intended to give them an all-aroung solid base system from which to grow. The shodan test is intended to show me that youare ready for self-directed study. Beyond that the belt means to you what it means to you. Kinda hard to misrepresent that.

Mark

 

[geezer]

Perhaps knowledge today is more sophisticated, but it often does not get tested to the same extreme as it did a few decades ago.

...Nowadays people are reaching higher ranks, for better or for worse, and it becomes easier to marginalize the lower dan ranks, whether it's warranted or not. With higher ranks available, it also makes it possible and more acceptable in teh eyes of many people, to lower standards and make it easier to reach the lower dan ranks.

Yeah, and a few decades ago you didn't have every corner McDojo cranking out 10 year-old black belts. Contrary to such current trends, the standards have gotten higher in my system. After a long layoff of about 15 years I'm training again, and I suspect I'm still a couple of years away from being worthy of my old "third-level technician" (3rd degree black-belt) rank. At age 53, I'm not so quick on the uptake. On the other hand I have a step-nephew who recently got his black belt in TKD... at age 12. And my own kids have several friends of about the same age with black belts. Now, I admire the dedication and hard work these kids do, but in my system, the "primary-level" or black belt rank is something more. It means having a firm command of all the fundamentals and a thorough understanding of the principles underlying the techniques. It means the ability to apply the techniques in sparring against adult opponents. It means knowing the mythic and factual history of our lineage, and the moral lessons and values these stories imply. And it means having invested a minimum of several years of dedicated training showing loyalty, dependability and responsibility as an adult representing our style. I believe this, at the minimum, is what most styles used to require of their "black belts" or equivalents. But nowadays, I find people questioning the time I'm investing in the MA, and when they hear (from others) that I'm a "black-belt" they chuckle and ask if I'm not a little bit old for that kind of kiddie stuff! As my 83 yer-old dad put it, "Heck son, why don't you act your age. My step-grandson just got a black-belt. Now that's great, but he is only twelve!".


Sooo...you ask what is the public stereotype of a "blackbelt"? These days its either a 12 year-old kid or a ridiculous cartoon figure from a silly movie. I'm actually glad that in the two arts I practice, we don't formally use the Japanese belt system. It saves me a little emabarrasment. And that's a pity, since I know what a black belt is supposed to mean.

 

[Steve]

This says it all for me. I can only think of one thing to add, and that's an example.

I went through Navy boot camp in 1971. It was *only* nine weeks. But those were 16, 18, 20 or more hour days, and the intensity was nonstop. About half our company dropped out, earning themselves General, or 'For the good of the government' discharges. Those of us who survived were not even close to anything like we were on the bus ride to NTC. Put us up against a first-day boot, and to an outsider, it would likely appear to be a man vs. boy comparison; I know the graduating recruits would see it that way.

On the other hand, after a few days leave when I got to A school, I was a scrub again. Six months of school, at six hours a day, was the equivalent of a two-year A.A. degree.

Then it was on to C school, and at the bottom again. All-night duty every third night. This mostly entailed being awakened to pick up corpses in a huge teaching hospital, and taking them what seemed like miles away down long, dark, not-a-soul-around corridors and then singlehandedly manhandling the bodies onto a morgue tray. Add in a whole bunch of other ghoulish things that were part of the curriculum, and after about a year in the service I'd completed my training. Lotta water under the bridge since first climbing off that bus for intake at NTC, San Diego.

Nine weeks, six months, one year, two years. Did I ever become an expert? To a new Boot, I was an expert after my first week of boot camp. To a 17-year Chief, I didn't even register on his radar till I'd made E-5 after about two years (much faster in those days--so many *empty boots* and all ). And since that was before we ever had civilian EMTs and all that great stuff, when I got out it all counted for nothing. Only job I could get in the field was driving an ambulance on the graveyard shift for minimum wage, even though I'd done procedures even some civilian doctors hadn't done--cause in the service, they don't worry about lawsuits and such. So I took a job in a factory instead.

So, guess I'm saying we gotta be careful in making comparisons. Everyone's story is different.

That's a great story. The only question I have has to do with the definition of "expert". I think that we're talking about two different things. To apply your experiences to martial arts, it would seem that you are describing the developmental stages of training.

I'll use BJJ, because that's what I know. In BJJ, a blue belt is often significantly better than many white belts. There's some overlap, but to many white belts, a blue belt is really good. And so on through the ranks. But, even though a white belt knows that a blue belt is better and will accept coaching and instruction, I don't think any (or at least many) would call a blue belt an expert. Competent, sure. But far from "expert."

And it's black belts as "expert" that I'm talking about. Journeymen level expertise.

Regarding the end of your story, that really sucks. I had some difficulty re-entering the workforce after the military, myself. I ended up stacking wood at a cedar finishing plant until I saved up enough to get into college. It was irritating to me that I had trouble getting a job because my references were so old and I had no recent contacts. "Err... well, you can call my last first sargeant, but... I'm not sure where he is now."

 

[kidswarrior]

That's a great story. The only question I have has to do with the definition of "expert". I think that we're talking about two different things. To apply your experiences to martial arts, it would seem that you are describing the developmental stages of training.

I'll use BJJ, because that's what I know. In BJJ, a blue belt is often significantly better than many white belts. There's some overlap, but to many white belts, a blue belt is really good. And so on through the ranks. But, even though a white belt knows that a blue belt is better and will accept coaching and instruction, I don't think any (or at least many) would call a blue belt an expert. Competent, sure. But far from "expert."

And it's black belts as "expert" that I'm talking about. Journeymen level expertise.

Yeah, I see your point. And I wasn't trying to answer with anything definitive, as much as to say it seems to be a moving target. To go back to boot camp (not literally, but as an illustration ), on graduation day, when parents, sweethearts, siblings, etc. came and saw 600 guys whirling around the parade ground, in tightly formed companies of 70 or so all in lock step, colors flapping in the onshore wind so hard you could hear them pop and snap when we halted...right then, we nine-week wonders probably seemed like experts to the civilians. And we did know a lot of things they didn't. But to the Lifers who'd trained us, we were still pencil necked geeks *without a swingin **** among ya*. So, expertise: moving target?

Regarding the end of your story, that really sucks. I had some difficulty re-entering the workforce after the military, myself. I ended up stacking wood at a cedar finishing plant until I saved up enough to get into college. It was irritating to me that I had trouble getting a job because my references were so old and I had no recent contacts. "Err... well, you can call my last first sargeant, but... I'm not sure where he is now."

Yup.

 

[still learning]

Hello, To say a school misprepresent the black belt? ...There is NO rules for any martial art school to give anyone a black belt.

Each system or Sensi set's up there own requirement and anyone who meets there school requirements can earn a black belt.

Bjj you have to prove yourself in time and winnings. Same for many Judo schools.

Boxers has NO black belts...but in the ring..this is where they are proven..

Most martial art schools do not require you to fight for each promotions...

Joe Lewis got his BLack belt in less than 8 months in Okinawa because he kept beating all the Black belts in class......Is time important? ...NO

Your fighting skills should be a requirement .......TODAY SOME MANY PEOPLE EARN A BLACK BELT BECAUSE OF THE EASY REQUIREMENTS FROM MANY SCHOOLS......

Like the army or marines....meet the minimun requirements...you past....!
Does it make you a combat soldier? ....maybe...

Today a Black belt does NOT mean much anymore....just look around...?

Off course there is the other side too....where they are TRUE fighters that are Black belts....

A college degree from Harvard is the same as a college degree from Hawaii? ....maybe and maybe NOT....it comes down to the person who carries it!

Aloha ..just my thougths on this..

 

[kamishinkan]

Just a thought as well,

In our school it takes about 3 1/2 - 4 years to reach 1st Black (Shodan).
I realize that alot of people have been handed that rank in America in much less time, and not really earning it, usually at the feet of the greed of the schools. Most of these give the black belt level a horrable name.
I agree that, in our style, a 1st degree black belt is known as just "mastering" the basics, so to speak, but that does not mean that we do not think they could defend themselves fairly reasonably against an attacker. They have to fight as well as learning the basics to reach that level.
I said all of that to establish where I am coming from, maybe the reason so many people have the opinion of a black belt is the average person "on the street" does not understand the levels of black belts. For example, 1st Black through 5th black is JUST A BLACK BELT to the average person. Most do not know what it takes to move through the black belt ranks etc. To them it is a black belt. This may explain why the average person just overlays "expert" to the "black belt" with no regard to rank in those levels. This has no regard on BJJ, most of us realize it takes an enormous amount of time to get to that level which I believe is more of the exception than the rule.

Just a thought,

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Each system will do things differently in the Bujinkan rank is a pretty nominal thing and in the end it is more about the journey. In BJJ your rank is tested daily on the mat and you better be able to perform. In Tae Kwon Do, Karate, different versions of CMA, etc, rank can still be tough depending on your instructor or it could be easy to get. In some FMA systems they could care less about rank and you are either a student or instructor. In IRT rank is based through skill and it could be a short time say four years or twelve years (I have a few people working in this area) or more to be an instructor it just all depends. Different cultures make a bigger deal about rank.

Each system is different and unique and that is cool in my book because I like diversity. In the end I do not think any system has it completely right.

 

[YoungMan]

Your average Joe Public thinks black belt is an expert for the same reason he thinks black belts have to register their hands: misperceptions from various sources.
I have always told people that 1st Dan means you have mastered your basics. You are not an expert.
Is a high school graduate an expert in English, reading, science, and math? No. High school graduation means you have fulfilled the requirements of the high school and accrediting body and are now ready for the next step, whether it's college, military, or a full time job.

 

[Steve]

Good points, everyone.

YoungMan, I see your point. I asked this earlier as a follow up to your analogy. If a 1st degree black belt is a high school diploma, why do so many styles allow them to open their own schools? I mean, I would never want a high school graduate to teach.

 

[YoungMan]

As a 1st Dan, you are considered to be no more than an assistant instructor, teaching under strict supervision. Schools that allow 1st Dans to open their own schools are not ones I would want to be associated with.
According to the Kukkiwon, only a 4th Dan or higher can open their own school.

 

[Twin Fist]

" According to the Kukkiwon, only a 4th Dan or higher can open their own school."

which is complete rubbish



sorry, but a 4th to open a school? give me a break. Jhoon Rhee wasnt a 4th when he started teaching Allen Steen

Allen Steen wasnt a 4th when he promoted J Pat Burleson to 1st

Ed parker was a 1st when he opened a school

So was Sijo Emperaldo

Chuck Norris was a 2nd

Ralph Castro was a 1st

For that matter, according to the KKW, Jhoon Rhee is STILL just a 1st.


When I started in 84, anyone over 2nd was so rare as to be almost mythical

If a 2nd Dan cant handle opening a school, his instructor made 2nd dan too easy to get.


I am only a second right now, and I dare anyone to come to my school, watch my classes and tell me I am not qualified to teach.

 

[Laurentkd]

We tell students from day one that a Black Belt is your "First" goal in martial arts. Yes, that is the point you are wanting to reach (especially when somone first walks in the door), and that goal should be in your mind as you promote through your color belt ranks, but black belt is only your first goal because there is so much more after that. A black belt means you have the basics down and now you are ready to "make them your own" (it takes on average 3.5-4 years to get a black belt at my dojang).

As far as instructing... I have yet to met a 1st or 2nd dan who I think should operate a school on their own, but it doesn't mean they aren't out there. I have some really good 1st dans at my school who are excellent instructors... but they can't always answer a student's question, and still on occasion will make a slight mistake on a form. They also are not ready to really evaluate where a student should be at any given level. I think it is up to the individual, but I think 3rd dan is probably the minimum for a good quality taekwondo school. And then again, you can't assume it is a high quality instructor just because he is a 3rd dan... or 8th dan for that matter.

As with anything (rank, when to instruct, etc )it is always dependant on the individual in question. We can never pin point it down exactly for everyone. I guess that is why I am glad I have an instructor who I feel has greater skill than I, who I trust and who's opinion I value. When it comes down to it to my training, promotion, etc it is only his and my opinion I care about.

 

[YoungMan]

" According to the Kukkiwon, only a 4th Dan or higher can open their own school."

which is complete rubbish



sorry, but a 4th to open a school? give me a break. Jhoon Rhee wasnt a 4th when he started teaching Allen Steen

Allen Steen wasnt a 4th when he promoted J Pat Burleson to 1st

Ed parker was a 1st when he opened a school

So was Sijo Emperaldo

Chuck Norris was a 2nd

Ralph Castro was a 1st

For that matter, according to the KKW, Jhoon Rhee is STILL just a 1st.


When I started in 84, anyone over 2nd was so rare as to be almost mythical

If a 2nd Dan cant handle opening a school, his instructor made 2nd dan too easy to get.


I am only a second right now, and I dare anyone to come to my school, watch my classes and tell me I am not qualified to teach.

I would never attend a school run by a 1st Dan. Kukkiwon regulations state that only after you attain 4th Dan may you operate a class inependently. Believe me, teaching is a big responsibility, one I would never entrust to a 1st-3rd Dan without instructor supervision.
When Jhoon Rhee first taught, the Kukkiwon didn't exist, so it's a moot point.
Different styles and organizations have different policies, but I still don't believe a 1st Dan or 2nd Dan should be allowed to teach independently. They simply do not have the experience or maturity to do so.

 

[terryl965]

Let me chime in here for this great debate over who is qualify to open a school. First off show me where on the KKW does it say you cannot be a school owner until 4th Dan? Secondly how do you think so many schools got opened by Master level promoting BB to 1st and sending them into YMCA, Rec. centers and daycare to spend there area of operations. I do not know that many 4-6 that really teach anymore, they have under BB doing it while they attend to the business aide of Martial Art. Now I still teach but that is me, my wife is only a second getting ready for her thrid and she is teaching.

Lets go with your anology about the high school being a step n stone, then that would make a teacher just out of college inadiquate to teach elementary or secondary but yet our country was founded on people like this. What a shame that so many put so much into a degree on a belt.

Same anaolgy I would not have been able to teach because I did not test for 18 years and I stayed a 3rd for all those years, so that would make me not qualify to teach TKD as well, but wait I personally have been training since 1964 so that is over forty years. So with all that experience if I was not a fourth I would be looked down upon by those like you please those that know me know I have more knowledge in one hand than most 4-6 degree's I know they all came from that get your BB in a year and a half and then promoted every two years.

Youngman sometime I agree with you but what you are saying makes no sense, I will go and tell Pat Burleson he was all wrong along with GM Kurban and of course Bill Superfoot Wallace, lets not forget GM Won Chik Park abd all the others that opened schools here when they was only lonely 1-3 Dans. That would mean all those people promoted are not worthly of there rank either. By the way the KKW only lets 4th or higher get Dan certificates up to one grade below them and it does not say you need to be a fourth to open a school. That is another myth like the registration of the hands when you get a BB.

Have a nice day.

 

[Kacey]

I started teaching an affiliated class for another instruction when I was a first Dan - it was a new class and all of my students were white belts; the senior BB hired me to teach the kids' class for him, because he didn't do well teaching kids, and having a kids' class was a condition of the athletic club in which he taught adults. By the time I left that position to open my own class, I had students up to blue belt (it had been several years) and I was a II Dan. Due to a variety of factors (mostly graduate school) I didn't test again for 7 years; I tested for IV Dan over 10 years after I started teaching my own class.

My sahbum started teaching when he was a II Dan - in fact, that's what he was when I started; his instructor was transferred to another state, and left him in charge of the class at the YMCA where I started (a different Y than the one I teach in now). Without him taking over the class, there wouldn't have been a class - and where would that have left all the students? Several of whom are now IV Dans, and still with him - 2 of us are instructors, and another is looking for a location to teach at.

Black belt is a beginning, that's true - but after the 3-1/2 to 4-1/2 years it takes most people to earn a BB, they should be able to teach beginners; why wouldn't they? How is it misrepresenting a black belt to let someone with several years experience teach what they know? So what if they have to go look something up sometimes? I don't know anyone who doesn't have to check a reference occasionally - even at IV Dan and higher - if only because each student brings a unique perspective, and often unique questions, to learning martial arts, and sometimes those unique questions can't be answered right away. I teach middle school - and yes, sometimes a student will ask a question that I can't answer right away; sometimes I have to check a fact, a procedure (have you seen some of the things they've done with math lately? those new books are nasty) - that's what reference texts and colleagues are for, in any field.

Perfection is a goal - but it's a destination that is never reached; there will always be something else to learn, another interpretation, another question. Teaching is a great way to progress along the journey, as you have to understand something much more thoroughly to teach it to someone else than to perform it; why limit that experience to seniors?

 

[stickarts]

Teaching is a great way to progress along the journey, as you have to understand something much more thoroughly to teach it to someone else than to perform it; why limit that experience to seniors?

I agree. Also, I think thats one factor in becoming a senior, is by teaching. Allowing (or even requiring ) junior or assistant instructors to help teach is part of their learning process and the beginner students will also have their opportunity to teach when they advance.

 

[Twin Fist]

but I still don't believe a 1st Dan or 2nd Dan should be allowed to teach independently. They simply do not have the experience or maturity to do so.

I got 24 years in a gi, BB rank in 2 arts and Brown in a 3rd art and you just told me I dont have the experience or maturity to teach?

whatever. do what makes you happy