Racist Cop or Combative Professor?

[sgtmac_46]

Alright guys. While I don't think my position is far removed from anyone else's, nor do I believe it's extreme, I understand that you guys want to vindicate the cop. I get it. He's a paragon of human virtue and beyond reproach. I understand. I'll let it go.

You understand nothing, then. The 'cop' did not exceed his authority of violate the law.....lets say for the sake of argument, however, that he 'shouldn't' have arrested Gates.......the officer is STILL not a racist, nor his actions the result of racial bias.

Gates, on the other hand, is a RACIST no matter how one spins the case, and by proxy, The President of the United States' position is inherently a racist and biased on.......regardless of what we conclude about Crowley's actions.......zero racial bias on Crowley's part, MUCH racial bias by Gates and Obama.

Moreover, Obama's abuse of power far exceeds anything that happened at Gates' house.

 

[sgtmac_46]

As I said before and you don't seem to hear, I don't think the old man should have gotten arrested, he could have gotten a warning.

The problem is that you weren't there, nor remotely know exactly what happened......you've read accounts of it, but it's never the same as being there. Hence, the conclusion 'I would have done something different' holds little weight.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not at all!

Is it possible he crossed the line? Perhaps, but where's the evidence?

All the evidence I've seen points to Dr. Gates acting like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum.

From everything that's been reported it shows that Dr. Gates actions fit the bill when it came to what is considered "disorderly conduct."

Cops don't have to write you a ticket for speeding, but they can once they pull you over or they can let you off with a warning.

Sgt. Crowley didn't necessarily have to arrest Dr. Gates either, but Dr. Gates was "speeding" and he got a "ticket."

That's my point. I don't deny yours that he could have let it go. I doubt that it would have done anything to quell the national attention it got though, simply because Dr. Gates is friends with Obama.

Absolutely correct! An officer doesn't have to PROVE that he could not have POSSIBLY taken any other course of action other than rest........the only REAL questions are these, when discussing his behavior.

1) Did he have probable cause to believe a crime was being committed? All indications show that Gates behavior rose to the level of the statute pertaining to peace disturbance.

2) Did he have the lawful authority to make an arrest? See one.

The argument that 'He didn't have to make arrest' is utterly irrelevant......did he have the LEGAL JUSTIFICATION for an arrest? The obvious answer is YES!


It's not my intent to PROVE that Sgt. Crowley was a "paragon of human virtue and beyond reproach".......but, only rather, that his ACTIONS were OBJECTIVELY REASONABLE........and that Gates' most certainly weren't objectively reasonable.

 

[sgtmac_46]

No, they don't. Not typically. In fact, they aren't usually allowed to call the police or even mall security until they've directed to do so by their LP rep. Of course, each company has their own policies.

Edit: Just in case this goes without saying, I'm not talking about situations in which there is any threat of bodily harm. I'm talking about situations like Gates': yelling, belligerance and regular, run of the mill crazy talk.

Every business i'm familiar with will call the police for this type of disturbance immediately........perhaps your town's businesses are more tolerant of adult temper tantrums......results may vary.

 

[sgtmac_46]

If Obama had just stood by his friend, I would grant him some leeway, but he went further than this. He started going on about how black people had been abused by law enforcement in the past and that is unacceptable in my opinion.

EXACTLY! A 'Gates is a good friend of mine, I know the man, I think he's a good man, but I can't comment on this case as I know little about it, but I support him as a friend'........THAT would have been commendable........NOT the racist diatribe he launched in to in insinuating that the incident was because of racist cops.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Feeling that you are being picked on because of who you are "whether you are black, white, hispanic can make you very irate. If you are going to racial profile (which is not necessarily racism) then you must expect the angry backlash that you will get from some innocent people, and handle it. A whole sgt couldn't do that. That saddens me.

I suspect that folks fall on either side of this debate based on whether they personally can identify with having a raging case of persecution complex or not.......those of us who can't really identify with the justification that you can act like a 3 year old because you automatically jump to the conclusion you're being persecuted at the drop of the hat don't side with Gates......other folks seem to feel that's a perfectly legitimate position to take. It's actually pretty interesting.

Silly me, I expect a Harvard Professor to act like an adult.....THAT saddens me........Lets not even GET in to the joke of a POTUS.

 

[sgtmac_46]

There are folks who FIXATED on focusing solely on this officer, and make the issue purely about him.......but there are THREE people in this incident, and THREE issues.

1) Gates' behavior.
2) Sgt. Crowley's decision to arrest based on that behavior.
3) Obama's response to a local incident.

Attacking Crowley does NOTHING to deal with the other two separate issues........but some hope that if they squeal loudly enough about the Poh-Lice they can drown out the discussion of the REAL national issue involved here.........the VERY INSTRUCTIONAL teaching moment about the Character (or lack thereof) of our President!

Sgt. Crowley's actions don't effect the American people........so even if his judgment was poor, it's a local phenomenon.

Gate's actions don't directly effect the American people........so even if HIS judgment was poor, it's a local phenomenon.

Barack Obama is the MOST POWERFUL MAN on the PLANET......HIS actions effect not only America, but the WORLD........so if HIS judgment is poor, and he is strongly biased, as appears to be the case, that fact bodes VERY ILL for all of us!

 

[jks9199]

Every business i'm familiar with will call the police for this type of disturbance immediately........perhaps your town's businesses are more tolerant of adult temper tantrums......results may vary.

I can't tell you how many of them I've responded too...

We've got one restaurant in town that I seldom eat at (despite very good food) because we get too much drama with the owner...

 

[Steve]

You understand nothing, then. The 'cop' did not exceed his authority of violate the law.....lets say for the sake of argument, however, that he 'shouldn't' have arrested Gates.......the officer is STILL not a racist, nor his actions the result of racial bias.

Sigh... never said he was a racist. I also never said he "exceeded" his authority. I said that, in my opinion, he abused his authority. There is a difference.

Gates, on the other hand, is a RACIST no matter how one spins the case, and by proxy, The President of the United States' position is inherently a racist and biased on.......regardless of what we conclude about Crowley's actions.......zero racial bias on Crowley's part, MUCH racial bias by Gates and Obama.

I don't disagree.

Moreover, Obama's abuse of power far exceeds anything that happened at Gates' house.

I'm not sure I agree that Obama abused authority, but I do agree he mishandled the situation. He acted stupidly. Now, had he used his influence to get the cop suspended, that would have been an abuse of his power. But he didn't. He didn't really *do* anything beyond say something he shouldn't have.

It's not my intent to PROVE that Sgt. Crowley was a "paragon of human virtue and beyond reproach".......but, only rather, that his ACTIONS were OBJECTIVELY REASONABLE........and that Gates' most certainly weren't objectively reasonable.

To the extent that Crowley, by not leaving once his work there was done, actually contributed to the situation, his actions were wrong.

Every business i'm familiar with will call the police for this type of disturbance immediately........perhaps your town's businesses are more tolerant of adult temper tantrums......results may vary.

Be that as it may, if you were to ask the manager of every retail outlet in your local mall (presuming they're aware of their corporate policy... which isn't a given), they will tell you that they are required to call their corporate LP officer BEFORE calling the police or in most cases even mall security. This is often the case even in situations where they see someone walk out of the store with product.

There are folks who FIXATED on focusing solely on this officer, and make the issue purely about him.......but there are THREE people in this incident, and THREE issues.

1) Gates' behavior.
2) Sgt. Crowley's decision to arrest based on that behavior.
3) Obama's response to a local incident.

Attacking Crowley does NOTHING to deal with the other two separate issues........but some hope that if they squeal loudly enough about the Poh-Lice they can drown out the discussion of the REAL national issue involved here.........the VERY INSTRUCTIONAL teaching moment about the Character (or lack thereof) of our President!

Honestly, I'm only discussing Crowley's actions because largely I agree with everyone's take on both Gates' and Obama's actions. I'm "fixated" on Crowley simply because everyone else seems to want to paint this as a situation engineered entirely by Gates' poor behavior. I'm suggesting that Crowley is AS culpable in creating the situation as Gates, and that because he is presumably a well trained authority figure, he could have (should have) defused the situation.

Sgt. Crowley's actions don't effect the American people........so even if his judgment was poor, it's a local phenomenon.

Gate's actions don't directly effect the American people........so even if HIS judgment was poor, it's a local phenomenon.

Barack Obama is the MOST POWERFUL MAN on the PLANET......HIS actions effect not only America, but the WORLD........so if HIS judgment is poor, and he is strongly biased, as appears to be the case, that fact bodes VERY ILL for all of us!

Okay. Now you're going out into left field a little. If Bush's mouth didn't cause the apocalypse, I'm pretty sure that Obama saying something stupid won't either.

I can't tell you how many of them I've responded too...

We've got one restaurant in town that I seldom eat at (despite very good food) because we get too much drama with the owner...

You guys are giving me a headache. Of course they happen. People will call the cops. People call 911 when the burger king guy messes up their order.

That doesn't change the situation. As I said, most corporate retail outlets have procedures. Not everyone knows them... not everyone follows them. Most companies have a policy that the employees are not "allowed" to call the cops unless they have first called their LP rep.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Believe what you wish man, I told you my bit and that's it. I've lived all over the world and race has never been an issue till I moved to the US at 16. For some reason this country is more fixated on race and skin color than anywhere else I've grown up. I'm Indian, my wife is French, I've lived in 8 countries including Jamaica, Brazil, Burma, Austria, and I've never seen a society where race is this much of an issue.
As I said before and you don't seem to hear, I don't think the old man should have gotten arrested, he could have gotten a warning.

At last you concede that race IS an issue in determining your opinion. I agree that in the US race is more polarizing and controversial than in any other country that I've been to. I think that this is because people of the US are desperate to cling to some kind of racial identity. Some people believe that this is a good thing. They believe that the US is rich and diverse in culture, but there is a problem with the situation.

I have a couple of friends, aquaintances really, from Kenya. They came here to make better lives for themselves and joined the Navy. They are both proud of the fact that they are serving the US and hope to gain citizenship through service. I was chatting with them in a bar several years ago, when a small gang of women approached us. They asked the usual questions, Where are you from? How long have you been here? Then one of them asked one of the fellas "So you're a real African American?" He looked bemused and replied "No, I'm African and hope to someday become an American." This endeered me to him. I thought to myself, here comes a guy from Africa who wants to work hard and serve the US and all he wants in return is to become an American.

I feel the same way. I can't wait for the time that I hand over my British passport and I am sworn in as an American. Not an Anglo American or an Irish American, but an American.

I worked in an Irish bar slinging drinks for a while and one of the customers said "Where are you from?" I said "England". The guy went into a diatribe about an Englishman working in an Irish bar. I asked the guy where he was from "New York". I asked him when the last time he went to Ireland was. "Never". I shook my head and walked away. The guy is maybe 4th generation Irish and still considers himself Irish American. My mother and father are Irish as were all my grandparents and I lived there for 7 years and yet I am English, because I was born in England.

Race IS an issue in general but this is as much a fault of blacks as it is whites. Why not just drop the African, Irish, Italian and any other prefixes that attached to the word American and start accepting others for what they are PEOPLE.

If Gates had accepted the cop as a cop doing his job there would'nt of been an issue, but he didn't he descriminated against his colour BLUE.

 

[blindsage]

Regardless of how out of line Professor Gates may have been, calling him a racist indicates a complete lack of understanding of the issues of race in this country.

 

[blindsage]

Race IS an issue in general but this is as much a fault of blacks as it is whites. Why not just drop the African, Irish, Italian and any other prefixes that attached to the word American and start accepting others for what they are PEOPLE.

Go back to your history books and maybe you'll figure out why the prefixes exist. I've never had a problem being accepted by any of those groups as a PERSON (despite being a poor oppressed white male).

 

[yorkshirelad]

Regardless of how out of line Professor Gates may have been, calling him a racist indicates a complete lack of understanding of the issues of race in this country.

HE injected race into the debateand please don't give me some tribe about the impossiblity of blacks to be racist. Gates is a racebater and the only prejudice the cop has is a prejudice against *******s.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Go back to your history books and maybe you'll figure out why the prefixes exist. I've never had a problem being accepted by any of those groups as a PERSON (despite being a poor oppressed white male).

I know why the prefixes exist, I just think they don't have to. Tou may not have had a problem with any of those groups, but go to England and walk your white *** around Harehills or Chapeltown in Leeds and you will have a problem. Chapeltown is a notorious "no go area" aptly named because the cops won't go there.

Now as we are refering to the US, I'm sure if you were to go to certain urban areas of LA or maybe New York, then you will have a problem as your white **** would stick out like a blind coblers thumb. Just think about it.

 

[jks9199]

Regardless of how out of line Professor Gates may have been, calling him a racist indicates a complete lack of understanding of the issues of race in this country.

Why?

Does it reasonably appear that he shaped the encounter by his perception that it was based on race, and that a white cop was only challenging him because of his race? Were his perceptions based on a racially-derived stereotype? (For that matter, have you read any of the posts on his website, TheRoot.com?)

Or are you suggesting that a black man can't be racially prejudiced?

 

[Archangel M]

The whole "I object to not being able to question authority" thing....

I think it shows an ignorance of law enforcement and what they can and cant legally do. Sure you CAN question authority. You can also stick your finger in a light socket, take pot shots at the white house with an AK, jump from a plane without a chute etc....nothing stopping you. Just know what the possible consequences are going to be.

Look its not about just knuckling under to authority, its about the REASON the cop is giving you orders. When a cop tells you what to do there are a few possible reasons for it...if he is making contact with you of his own accord, as in just walking up to you in the street and asking you questions, you can choose to not do as he tells you and there is little to no legal authority for him do do anything about it. If the cop is stopping you because you match the description of a robbery suspect, are in a house that has been reported to have been broken into, have been stopped for speeding, were just seen stabbing a guy on the street, and you decide to be a Gates sized *** with him...well you chose to not "respect his authority", so be prepared for the consequences because he certainly has the authority...even duty to MAKE you comply with his demands..."respect" them or not.

The real question is "do you really know why this cop is talking to you?" Are you going to roll the dice thinking that he has no reason to be detaining you? Because even if you are in fact not the suspect he is looking for you can still be subject to arrest if you become a big enough ***. It depends on if the cop has reasonable cause to believe that you were the suspect...do you know what HE thinks? THAT is why the advice to be co-operative at the moment of contact is very reasonable.

 

[Omar B]

At last you concede that race IS an issue in determining your opinion. I agree that in the US race is more polarizing and controversial than in any other country that I've been to. I think that this is because people of the US are desperate to cling to some kind of racial identity. Some people believe that this is a good thing. They believe that the US is rich and diverse in culture, but there is a problem with the situation.
.

I think you are magically finding things in my post I did not say yet again. I did not say race was a determining issue in anything. Unless you missed the point, I was saying that I've never seen a people more concerned with race than here in the US.

 

[Carol]

I think you are magically finding things in my post I did not say yet again. I did not say race was a determining issue in anything. Unless you missed the point, I was saying that I've never seen a people more concerned with race than here in the US.

The U.S. is concerned about race, because we have a statistically significant representation of many different races. Other countries also have different dividing lines.

India and other countries in that part of the world, while diverse in their own ways, do not have a populace that is racially and ethnically diverse as the United States. Instead, India draws their dividing lines on religion, to the point where their constitution specifically describes rights and responsibilities in their constitution. And if there is a religion that isn't defined in the constitution, such as Sikhism, then those folks are classified at the will of the government (Sikhs, for example, are considered to be Hindu under the constitution). From what I understand, India also has some affirmative-action style of processes for people that are from lower-class families Other countries are Muslim states with Shari'a law.


There is France, who is often accused of social and governmental practices that are so intolerant they are often accused of institutionalizing racism. There is Japan which is also very intolerant of people from other nations.

Then there was South Africa and that whole apartheid thing, but I'd rather not go there...

 

[blindsage]

HE injected race into the debateand please don't give me some tribe about the impossiblity of blacks to be racist. Gates is a racebater and the only prejudice the cop has is a prejudice against *******s.

I never said blacks couldn't be racist, and I never said the cop was prejudice. Your assumptions are getting the better of you.

 

[dnovice]

That Gates supposedly felt he was being picked on because of his race is silly, and, not the fault of the cops.

It is not silly at all. It's based on his experiences in life. If he's been pulled over a lot because he looks suspicious its annoying. If a cop comes up to your house questioning you, the underlying conclusion is that you do not look like you own the place. That is what can be deferred from that kind of questioning even if that was not the cops intention.