Racist Cop or Combative Professor?

[Big Don]

IMO, it doesn't matter if he rented the house or owned the whole town, his behavior was deplorable.

 

[Archangel M]

My opinion. The cop might or might not have been a racist but he is retarded. (I've nothing against police officers as whole, I worked with them side by side.) I think obama was right in his first response that he had to eventually retract.

Sure, its fine that the cops showed up since a neighbor called about suspicious men trying to break into gates home. Sure, its fine that the cop asked for identification. However, the moment the cop ascertained that Gates was the owner of the house, regardless of how irate or high pitched the professors voice was he should explained to the professor that "he came because of a call and that next time gates should calmly talk to him." Then the cop should have walked away.

Feeling that you are being picked on because of who you are "whether you are black, white, hispanic can make you very irate. If you are going to racial profile (which is not necessarily racism) then you must expect the angry backlash that you will get from some innocent people, and handle it. A whole sgt couldn't do that. That saddens me.

He did "walk away" though. And Gates followed him out yelling and screaming...in front of other people watching from the street...that was the basis for arrest. You (a cop) typically cant charge DisCon if you are the only person being "offended" (cops cant be "offended" for DC)..there either has to be people witnessing or the behaivor is excessively loud during times that quiet is expected (if you are yelling and screaming at 2am..waking up the neighbors).

 

[celtic_crippler]

The fact that this relatively minor affair has already generated over 15 pages of heated discussion is evidence that the race issues are still a huge problem for us as a nation. And, beyond that, the issue is being exploited by certain individuals who seem to bear an almost irrational hatred for our President, accusing him of being incompetant and "unfit for office" ...because of this one minor mistep! I give irrational Obama haters get the same response I gave the irrational Bush haters. I ignore them.

Which is perfectly understandable...

But just "who" is perpetuating the problem in this case?

At any rate, I don't think Obama's comments make him unfit for office. There are definately other, more valid points that could be made towards that POV without faulting him for speaking up for a friend. Which is why I think he probably said what he said, not just because Dr. Gates happens to be black but because they are friends. It's only natural and I would probably have done the same initially.

As for the rest of us, who are not reacting solely out of our emotional dislike of the President, what is so hard to understand about an accomplished and esteemed Black man still being human and losing his cool when he thinks he's being singled out by the cops again for his race? I say 'again' because you know damn well people get singled out for the color of their skin, their age, their accent, their dress, the cars they drive, ...or you name it. It happens. And it ticks you off. So maybe that's why Professor Gates lost his cool.

You're claiming to be fair you must emotionally detach yourself and look at the facts; I agree 100%. But it seems you're just as guilty of this in defending Dr. Gates.

Sure, he's human and subject to the same flaws as the rest of us regardless of education. But nothing Sgt. Crowley did was out of the ordinary; he was following procedure. That's what the supporters of Dr. Gates can't get through their heads.

Sgt. Crowley responded appropriately to a report of B&E. It just so happened the perp was the homeowner. Once that was established it should have been over, but Dr. Gates overreacted. Dr. Gates brought this on himself through his actions. Race has nothing to do with it other than gaining this story national attention. If Dr. Gates happened to be white and not a friend of President Obama's you probably would never have heard about it.

And what about Officer Crowley? He apparently has worked very hard to be a fair cop, and an expert on race relations in police work. Yet is it so hard to understand that he's human too? In spite of himself, when Gates went off on his tirade, he got so ticked off that he went ahead and made the legal, but unecessary decision to arrest the Prof?

Agree. Sgt. Crowley is human and has a breaking point as well. A well-educated Harvard professor should have probably figured that out a long time ago. I don't have a PhD and I know that if I verbally go off on an individual they are likely to respond negatively...it ain't rocket science.

That aside, all the evidence points to the fact that Sgt. Crowley was justified in arresting Dr. Gates for disorderly conduct. Granted, disorderly conduct is often used as a catch-all by many police and Sgt. Crowley could have made the decision to ignore Dr. Gates but Dr. Gates could have just as easily made the decision to discontinue provoking the police.

The primary difference is Sgt. Crowley was legally justified in his actions and Dr. Gates was not.

And are the President's comments really that hard to understand either? I mean he started right off by saying that he probably couldn't be totally objective since Professor Gates was a personal friend, he overstepped a bit by calling the actions of the police "stupid"... although they certainly weren't the wisest way to resolve this situation. And he noted the statistical facts that underly the distrust many in the Black community have for the police. Hell, what's so bad about that? Sure, it wasn't as polished a political statement as you might like. Maybe he also let his emotions color his speech a bit. Did any of you know that he's a Black man? Surprise! Maybe he has also felt the sting of prejudice a few times. Maybe it isn't so easy being bi-racial in America either.

Not at all...as I said earlier, I would likely come to the defense of a friend as well. That's actually kinda' admirable.

Police procedure has evolved over centuries based on situation after situation, experience after experience. They may not equally apply in all cases, but they're there for a reason.

And here, you fall back to an emotional response. Blacks aren't the only ones that fall victim to over zealous cops. That excuse is old and a lot of Americans of all different colors are more than a little tired of it.

Anyway, I say cut all three of the parties involved a little slack and let's get past this and back to issues of greater importance. Now, will somebody invite me to the Whitehouse for a beer?

Maybe if you're wrongly accused of mistreating a friend of the President you'll get invited.

But I agree, this story got entirely too much attention and distracted the nation from more important things...like the economy, a growing government, health care reform.... Hmmmm...if I were a conspiracy theorist and an Obama hater....LOL

 

[MJS]

Hmm....interesting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_caller

 

[Steve]

But Sgt. Crowley wasn't "as much at fault" as Professor Gates. Sgt. Crowley was doing his job, plainly identifiable as a police officer, and the professor was the one who caused the problems.

I disagree. Sgt. Crowley chose to fan the flames. As I said before, he could have simply thanked Gates for his time and left. He stuck around, and the longer he stayed the more the situation escalated. Am I missing something? Did Gates actually put hands on Crowley or otherwise physically keep him from getting in his car and driving off?

jks, you asked in another post where people suggested that it was retaliatory. I wish I had time to go back and find all of the quotes. More than one person said something along the lines of, "If you give a cop a hard time, expect to end up in cuffs." Essentially, the gist is that if you don't pay proper respect to a cop, you get what's coming to you. While I don't doubt that this is true, I think it's reprehensible.

Ultimately, I think cops are civil servants. Getting yelled at isn't something only cops have to endure. Verbal and sometimes physical abuse occur in every service position, particularly any government service position. Social Security reps, IRS reps, vet reps at the VA, and on down to the DMV and other State reps.. you name it, they take all kinds of abuse, and are expected to take the high road, deescalate situations and treat the public with respect regardless of how they're being treated. The only difference between a cop being yelled at by a member of the public and any other government officer is that the cop has the authority to arrest you for being a jackass.

Ultimately, I think that this entire situation is symptomatic of a larger issue in this country, and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority. I'm not excusing Gates' actions or justifying them in any way. I do, however, think that we should all be able to get angry at the fuzz when they appear at your door asking to see ID. Is it right? Maybe not, but it's certainly nothing that should result in an arrest. What's funny to me is that there are so many libertarians on this board and the general consensus seems to be that, yeah, if you mouth off to a cop you'll get arrested. I honestly don't get it. Arrested for being angry, indignant, and belligerant. That is hogwash, and in my opinion, abuse of authority.

Once again, the bottom line for me is this: Had Sgt. Crowley thanked Gates for his time, apologized for any confusion and left, there would be no situation, no arrest and ultimately no story. Gates was a jackass, but Crowley allowed the situation to escalate by sticking around and continuing to fuel the fire. Why did he stick around? After confirming that Gates' ID and that there was a reasonable explanation for the call, why didn't he leave right away? As he moved outside to start heading to his car, why did he stop?

 

[Twin Fist]

"and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority."

that actually the exact OPPOSITE of the problem
a kid violates the schools dress code, the parents support the kid, people feel free to back talk the police, cuz they KNOW that some people will support them doing so. Dont agree with a law? break it anyway.

When i was growing up in a not so nice part of town, we used to joke "whats the fastest way to get to Parkland(the local hospital)? smart off to a Dallas cop."

but you know what? we didnt smart off to the cops

40 years ago you KNOW the press knew about LBJ and JFK being man whores, but they didnt report it. Cuz they knew you dont poke the big dog. Not if you want to enjoy your retirement.

NO ONE respects authority any more. Thats the problem.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Absolutely nothing to do with race...

BOSTON – The 911 caller who reported a possible break-in at the home of black Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. did not mention race in the call

...and...

Contrary to published reports that a 'white woman' called 911 and reported seeing 'two black men' trying to gain entry into Mr. Gates home, the woman, who has olive colored skin and is of Portuguese descent, told the 911 operator that she observed 'two men' at the home

Dr. Gates should have been thankful IMHO!

Whalen, who works nearby, called because she had been aware of recent break-ins in the area

So is the argument "who fanned the flames"?

Was it the cop who was doing his duty and following procedure?

or

Was it the verbally abusive, loud, obnoxious, ungrateful homeowner?

I in no way endorse the abuse of power by the police. That is very well evidenced in other posts I've made on the topic. In this case, I feel the police were justified and just doing their job. It's not like they sodomized Dr. Gates with a taser.

Could Sgt. Crowley have walked away? Sure!

Could Dr. Gates have behaved like a civilized human being? Sure!

Either action would have ended in a more peaceful result.

But niether did, so...

Again...when you boil it all down to it's essence:

The primary difference is Sgt. Crowley was legally justified in his actions and Dr. Gates was not.

We can play the "if so-and-so" game all day long but it doesn't matter in this case. If a frog had wings...he wouldn't bump his *** every time he hopped. LOL

 

[CoryKS]

If people don't hold a certain degree of respect for law enforcement, the system breaks down. That's not an "unquestioning acceptance of authority", that's an acknowledgement that if you think the officer is doing his job poorly, the best way to handle it is not to jump in his ****. There are channels for handling that sort of thing.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Nope, it does not. As much as you would love to believe I'm a member of the black panther movement supporting him just because he's black, no. Having a different opinion does not mean I'm playing up some race thing, it's just a different opinion, if you can't handle that then tough.

Mate, I would not "love to believe you are a member of the black panther movement". In fact I would love to believe that the vicious, hateful black panther movement did not exist at all. I feel the same way about any hateful group that relies on violence and intimidation to further its agenda. I don't believe for one second that you would belong to such a group. I do believe however, that race IS a factor in your decision to support Gates, because of comments you have made on another thread. There is no contesting that Gates' arrest was legal and justifiable. Gates and Obama based their opinions on Gates' arrest on racial motives and I firmly believe that anyone else that harbours the same opinions in someway is racially motivated. If you can't handle that TOUGH.

 

[yorkshirelad]

You know what -- I'll give President Obama a little bit of leeway. I'll grant that HIS comments may not have been tied to Professor Gates's race, but merely their friendship. I've stood up for friends before without knowing all the details, and discovered later I was wrong. Embarrassing -- but I'm human. I'll give President Obama that much slack... But, as PRESIDENT, he should have known better than to get involved. "I don't have the details, and I'm sorry my friend had to go through that" would have been fine. He would have shown public support for his friend without attacking the police. And you cannot tell me that as skilled an orator as President Obama, taking the apparent care with what to say that seems to be in the video, just put his foot in his mouth.

If Obama had just stood by his friend, I would grant him some leeway, but he went further than this. He started going on about how black people had been abused by law enforcement in the past and that is unacceptable in my opinion.

 

[jks9199]

My opinion. The cop might or might not have been a racist but he is retarded. (I've nothing against police officers as whole, I worked with them side by side.) I think obama was right in his first response that he had to eventually retract.

Sure, its fine that the cops showed up since a neighbor called about suspicious men trying to break into gates home. Sure, its fine that the cop asked for identification. However, the moment the cop ascertained that Gates was the owner of the house, regardless of how irate or high pitched the professors voice was he should explained to the professor that "he came because of a call and that next time gates should calmly talk to him." Then the cop should have walked away.

Feeling that you are being picked on because of who you are "whether you are black, white, hispanic can make you very irate. If you are going to racial profile (which is not necessarily racism) then you must expect the angry backlash that you will get from some innocent people, and handle it. A whole sgt couldn't do that. That saddens me.

It saddens me that you'd bandy words like "retarded" about when discussing a decorated professional, who made a judgement call that you disagree with.

At this point, I think that there is little dispute that the elements of the offense for disorderly conduct existed. And I'd say that there's little room for argument that Prof. Gates brought on the problem with his response, which was well outside the norms for such an incident, and which almost unarguably was based on HIS expectation of racism, rather than the facts.

And I'd say there's little doubt that President Obama regrets saying anything about it at all. He's had to basically eat his words, and he's significantly alienated the law enforcement community.

 

[geezer]

Considering that this is the "self-defense" forum and not the "political debate" forum, I'm going to share my top secret self-defense secret for dealing with cops:

Comply with their commands and (unless you are accused of a serious crime*) answer their questions directly and be courteous, even if you feel that they are full of ****. Arguing never helps. If you disagree, you can work that out with a judge later. Anyway, it's always worked for me... too bad Professor Gates didn't have this top secret training.

*if you are a suspect in a serious crime, it may behoove you to remain silent and request a lawyer before saying anything.

 

[MJS]

I disagree. Sgt. Crowley chose to fan the flames. As I said before, he could have simply thanked Gates for his time and left. He stuck around, and the longer he stayed the more the situation escalated. Am I missing something? Did Gates actually put hands on Crowley or otherwise physically keep him from getting in his car and driving off?

jks, you asked in another post where people suggested that it was retaliatory. I wish I had time to go back and find all of the quotes. More than one person said something along the lines of, "If you give a cop a hard time, expect to end up in cuffs." Essentially, the gist is that if you don't pay proper respect to a cop, you get what's coming to you. While I don't doubt that this is true, I think it's reprehensible.

Ultimately, I think cops are civil servants. Getting yelled at isn't something only cops have to endure. Verbal and sometimes physical abuse occur in every service position, particularly any government service position. Social Security reps, IRS reps, vet reps at the VA, and on down to the DMV and other State reps.. you name it, they take all kinds of abuse, and are expected to take the high road, deescalate situations and treat the public with respect regardless of how they're being treated. The only difference between a cop being yelled at by a member of the public and any other government officer is that the cop has the authority to arrest you for being a jackass.

Ultimately, I think that this entire situation is symptomatic of a larger issue in this country, and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority. I'm not excusing Gates' actions or justifying them in any way. I do, however, think that we should all be able to get angry at the fuzz when they appear at your door asking to see ID. Is it right? Maybe not, but it's certainly nothing that should result in an arrest. What's funny to me is that there are so many libertarians on this board and the general consensus seems to be that, yeah, if you mouth off to a cop you'll get arrested. I honestly don't get it. Arrested for being angry, indignant, and belligerant. That is hogwash, and in my opinion, abuse of authority.

Once again, the bottom line for me is this: Had Sgt. Crowley thanked Gates for his time, apologized for any confusion and left, there would be no situation, no arrest and ultimately no story. Gates was a jackass, but Crowley allowed the situation to escalate by sticking around and continuing to fuel the fire. Why did he stick around? After confirming that Gates' ID and that there was a reasonable explanation for the call, why didn't he leave right away? As he moved outside to start heading to his car, why did he stop?

Ya know, this thread is so large now, I really can't recall, but I have a question. Was I correct in reading somewhere that Gates was on the phone while the cops were trying to figure out what was going on? How long after the cops asked for ID, did they get it? After ID was shown, was Gates still acting like a fool? If so, while I understand what others are saying, in that the cops still could have left and left Gates vent, they didn't. Do we know what he was doing and/or saying? Perhaps if we did, then maybe it'd be clearer as to why he was arrested.

On the other hand, while I understand that after the events that happened, ie: issue with the front door, issue with the passerby calling a B&E in progress, etc., I find it interesting that people are saying that the cops fanned the flames, giving the impression that Gates did nothing wrong. Did he have to act the way he did? No. He was playing the typical race card, acting like he was being harassed, blah, blah, blah, and instead of being the Professional that he should be, acted like a punk.

 

[MJS]

If people don't hold a certain degree of respect for law enforcement, the system breaks down. That's not an "unquestioning acceptance of authority", that's an acknowledgement that if you think the officer is doing his job poorly, the best way to handle it is not to jump in his ****. There are channels for handling that sort of thing.

Exactly, and I find myself repeating what I always say....people could eliminate half the problems they bring on THEMSELVES, if they just shut the **** up, and dealt with things after. The Prof. could have simply got into his car, and went to the PD to discuss this issue, if he felt things were not done right, but instead choose to be a jerk. Even if he didn't go to the PD, he still could have acted like a mature adult, instead of an immature child, who felt he was getting a raw deal.

 

[MJS]

If Obama had just stood by his friend, I would grant him some leeway, but he went further than this. He started going on about how black people had been abused by law enforcement in the past and that is unacceptable in my opinion.

Agreed. Friend or not...IMHO, this was not an issue that he needed to involve himself in. I mean, I find it hard to believe that things like this dont happen all the time, yet does the President involve himself in every race issue that happens on the streets? I highly doubt it.

 

[Steve]

"and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority."

that actually the exact OPPOSITE of the problem
a kid violates the schools dress code, the parents support the kid, people feel free to back talk the police, cuz they KNOW that some people will support them doing so. Dont agree with a law? break it anyway.

When i was growing up in a not so nice part of town, we used to joke "whats the fastest way to get to Parkland(the local hospital)? smart off to a Dallas cop."

but you know what? we didnt smart off to the cops

40 years ago you KNOW the press knew about LBJ and JFK being man whores, but they didnt report it. Cuz they knew you dont poke the big dog. Not if you want to enjoy your retirement.

NO ONE respects authority any more. Thats the problem.

I don't think this is exactly apples to apples, but it's a fair point. While it doesn't change my opinion on this subject, it does give me food for thought. I think it's possible to respect authority without rolling over. For example, in this particular situation, does anyone believe that Gates is other than the average, mostly law abiding citizen? I'd go out on a limb and suggest that he pays his bills and doesn't go out of his way to break the law or disrespect cops or anyone else.

What you're talking about regarding JFK and LBJ is something I brought up in the 90's during the lewinsky impeachment. I'm not sure that us plebes have any more or less respect for authority, but it's clear that the upper echelons have zero respect, and that's played out over the last few decades.

 

[MJS]

My opinion. The cop might or might not have been a racist but he is retarded. (I've nothing against police officers as whole, I worked with them side by side.) I think obama was right in his first response that he had to eventually retract.

Nice choice of words.

Sure, its fine that the cops showed up since a neighbor called about suspicious men trying to break into gates home. Sure, its fine that the cop asked for identification. However, the moment the cop ascertained that Gates was the owner of the house, regardless of how irate or high pitched the professors voice was he should explained to the professor that "he came because of a call and that next time gates should calmly talk to him." Then the cop should have walked away.

And the fact that Gates was acting like an *** should not have been addressed? As it was said, he was creating a public disturbance, an offense worthy of an arrest. I find it interesting how the cop is supposed to do nothing, while the other person can get away with yelling, screaming, probably swearing, rather than being civil.

Feeling that you are being picked on because of who you are "whether you are black, white, hispanic can make you very irate. If you are going to racial profile (which is not necessarily racism) then you must expect the angry backlash that you will get from some innocent people, and handle it. A whole sgt couldn't do that. That saddens me.

And while I understand that being picked on is not fun, is it necessary to blow up? And has it been proven that profiling took place? People assume it did because the cops were white and the other guy was black. Gee, maybe next time I'm pulled over and its a cop whose race is anything other than white, I should cry foul and scream that I was being profiled. Please, give me a break.

 

[Steve]

If people don't hold a certain degree of respect for law enforcement, the system breaks down. That's not an "unquestioning acceptance of authority", that's an acknowledgement that if you think the officer is doing his job poorly, the best way to handle it is not to jump in his ****. There are channels for handling that sort of thing.

Another fair point, MJS, but I think it ignores somewhat the reality of these situations. Most people don't interact with the cops personally very often. For the public, dealing with the cops goes hand in hand with emotionally charged, anxiety laden situations. Crowley has been on the force for years, but how many times does a person have a cop confront him? In his own home? As I've said repeatedly, I in no way defend Gates actions. I'm suggesting that it is Crowley's responsibility to act with sound judgement. In my opinion, staying there further incited Gates and was clearly a mistake.

Yes, Gates acted poorly. But Crowley was in a position of authority. Crowley had the experience and the training to handle the situation, and I'm sure that Gates isn't the first irate person Crowley's dealt with in his career. Crowley is the expert. It is ultimately, in my opinion, his responsibility to manage the situation.

As I said before, Crowley is a civil servant like any other civil servant. The only difference is that he can arrest the person saying, "Yo mamma."

 

[celtic_crippler]

Considering that this is the "self-defense" forum and not the "political debate" forum, I'm going to share my top secret self-defense secret for dealing with cops:

Comply with their commands and (unless you are accused of a serious crime*) answer their questions directly and be courteous, even if you feel that they are full of ****. Arguing never helps. If you disagree, you can work that out with a judge later. Anyway, it's always worked for me... too bad Professor Gates didn't have this top secret training.

*if you are a suspect in a serious crime, it may behoove you to remain silent and request a lawyer before saying anything.

Excellent advice! It's worked well for me as well.

 

[Steve]

And the fact that Gates was acting like an *** should not have been addressed? As it was said, he was creating a public disturbance, an offense worthy of an arrest. I find it interesting how the cop is supposed to do nothing, while the other person can get away with yelling, screaming, probably swearing, rather than being civil.

MJS, you were writing this as I was typing my response, but this speaks exactly to my point. Short answer: yes. Anyone else would endure the verbal abuse and terminate the conversation. If you came into my office and laid into me, I'd take it to a point and remain polite. Ideally, I'd deescalate the situation and resolve the issue. If that doesn't work, I'd ask you to leave. If I had the option to leave myself, I would. And if I didn't handle the situation like this, I'd be disciplined at least, and fired at worst. This is true at all levels of government, as well as any other service position. Retail managers (who get paid very little) understand this concept well.