Racist Cop or Combative Professor?

[celtic_crippler]

MJS, you were writing this as I was typing my response, but this speaks exactly to my point. Short answer: yes. Anyone else would endure the verbal abuse and terminate the conversation. If you came into my office and laid into me, I'd take it to a point and remain polite. Ideally, I'd deescalate the situation and resolve the issue. If that doesn't work, I'd ask you to leave. If I had the option to leave myself, I would. And if I didn't handle the situation like this, I'd be disciplined at least, and fired at worst. This is true at all levels of government, as well as any other service position. Retail managers (who get paid very little) understand this concept well.

Retail managers call the police in these situations. As would anyone else who experienced an overly disruptive individual in their work place.

 

[Steve]

Retail managers call the police in these situations. As would anyone else who experienced an overly disruptive individual in their work place.

No, they don't. Not typically. In fact, they aren't usually allowed to call the police or even mall security until they've directed to do so by their LP rep. Of course, each company has their own policies.

Edit: Just in case this goes without saying, I'm not talking about situations in which there is any threat of bodily harm. I'm talking about situations like Gates': yelling, belligerance and regular, run of the mill crazy talk.

 

[yorkshirelad]

As a white guy, (well pink with red blotchy cheeks and black hair), I have been racially profiled by the British police many times.

The cheapest method of transport between Dublin and Northern England is the bus/ferry. It costs about 20 quid. You get on the bus at the bus station in Dublin. The bus take you tao the ferry. You get off the ferry in Holyhead and then get back on the bus until you get to Liverpool, Manchester or Leeds.

Now bear in mind that when you get back on the bus after the ferry it's usually 0300 and you are tired and irritable after a 3 hour rocky ferry ride, filled with screaming babies, drunks and seasickness.

I have taken this trip tens of times and at least half of those times I've been stopped before resuming my place on the bus by the police. They would take me into a room and politely question me. My answers would ALWAYS be "yes sir" or "no sir". Then they would proceed to opens my bags and search the contents. When they would finish they would end with "sorry to trouble you sir" and I would end the conversation with a smile and say something on the lines of "No broblem officers" and I really meant it. It was no problem. I didn't once think that those guys wanted for one second to rifle through my underwear when the vast majority of the population were sleeping and I felt safe knowing that these guys were doing their job and I WAS being racially profiled.

Now, if I had let my lack of sleep/temper get to me for some unfathomable reason and said "No, I'm not going with you into that room, but i'll go in there with YO MOMMA, I would have been forced into the room and probably been given a cavity search and it would have been the fault of my uncontrolled jaw, NOTHING ELSE.

Again, the Gates' arrest was the fault of Gates. If anything he should've been happy that the police responded to his home. I know for one thing that if I was forcing entry into my home and the police arrived in due time, I would at least feel secure that if I WAS been burgled by some lowlife, they would respond in due time.

 

[crushing]

• Yes, Gates acted poorly.
• But Crowley was in a position of authority.
• Crowley had the experience and the training to handle the situation,
• and I'm sure that Gates isn't the first irate person Crowley's dealt with in his career.
• Crowley is the expert.
• It is ultimately, in my opinion, his responsibility to manage the situation.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Proably. Yes. He did, and some people are faulting him for it.

 

[crushing]

No, they don't. Not typically. In fact, they aren't usually allowed to call the police or even mall security until they've directed to do so by their LP rep. Of course, each company has their own policies.

Edit: Just in case this goes without saying, I'm not talking about situations in which there is any threat of bodily harm. I'm talking about situations like Gates': yelling, belligerance and regular, run of the mill crazy talk.

Is there a transcript? If you have a link I would really like to read it. THANKS!

 

[Steve]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Proably. Yes. He did, and some people are faulting him for it.

I was with you 'til the last. He mismanaged the situation, and that's the entire issue.

 

[Steve]

Is there a transcript? If you have a link I would really like to read it. THANKS!

I'm sure you're aware of the same accounts I am. There's Gates' version and the police report. Somewhere in the middle is what really happened, I'm sure.

 

[MJS]

MJS, you were writing this as I was typing my response, but this speaks exactly to my point. Short answer: yes. Anyone else would endure the verbal abuse and terminate the conversation. If you came into my office and laid into me, I'd take it to a point and remain polite. Ideally, I'd deescalate the situation and resolve the issue. If that doesn't work, I'd ask you to leave. If I had the option to leave myself, I would. And if I didn't handle the situation like this, I'd be disciplined at least, and fired at worst. This is true at all levels of government, as well as any other service position. Retail managers (who get paid very little) understand this concept well.

Hey Steve,

I think we're on the same page for the most part here. What is missing, afaik, from this debate, is that we don't know what was said between the parties involved. If it has been posted here, my apologies for missing it. What I'm saying is, did the cop say nothing out of line, do his best to de-escalate, etc, and when it wasn't working, made the arrest? Perhaps he was going to leave, and Gates continued on with his rant, to which the cop could have still kept walking, but seeing that Gates now crossed into the disturbance area, opted not to and instead arrest the Prof.

Slightly off topic, but related nonetheless, seeing that you mentioned retail. Quite a few years ago, I, as well as my father and grandfather worked in a liquor store, that was owned by a long time family friend. I worked just on Saturdays, from 3-8. One of the regulars came in to purchase lottery tickets. He had ones to cash in as well. During the transaction, I had a feeling that there was a mistake made with the cash, but due to it being busy, continued on, and told my grandfather to make sure he counted the money to double check when he got there on Monday, and if there was an error, to fix it with the customer the next time he came in.

This happened, but apparently this pissed off the customer. IIRC, there wasn't a mistake, but better to be safe than sorry. So, now this guy comes in to get tickets the following Sat., and proceeds to tell me how offended he was that I accused him of ripping the store off. By this time, there was quite a line building and this guy wasn't letting up. I did my best to defuse the situation and trying to justify my standpoint, as I didn't want to be accused of stealing, if there was in fact a shortage.

After quite a few minutes of this verbal abuse, I told him that he was going to have to either finish his purchase or leave the store, as I had others to tend to. He told me that I had to serve him. I told him that I did not, and to leave the store. He told me he was going to call the police, to which I handed him the store phone and asked if he wanted to call or if he wanted me to call. He went on for a few more seconds and then left.

Moral of the story....for the small amount I was making an hour and for the short time I was there, I did not need the abuse, and neither did the other customers, who're being subjected to this. I offered up an apology and explaination, to which went ignored, so I escalated to asking and then telling him to leave. Had he stayed, I can assure you I would have called the police and I would not have served him. I can also say that when they arrived, I'd be willing to bet that after they heard my side of the story, that he would have been asked to leave and if he didn't, he'd have been arrested. Had this guy just been calm and listened, the incident would've probably ended sooner than later. Instead he choose, just like Gates, to create a public disturbance.

 

[crushing]

I was with you 'til the last. He mismanaged the situation, and that's the entire issue.

It doesn't make sense to me that he had all of those bullet points going for him just to risk his job and throw it out the window.

I'm sure you're aware of the same accounts I am. There's Gates' version and the police report. Somewhere in the middle is what really happened, I'm sure.

Once again, isn't there a great risk to a policeman's job if he were to falsify a police report? Why would he risk throwing it all away on some disorderly jerk? Gates misrepresents the situation (which you suggest he did) and it could mean finding a larger audience to purchase his story.

 

[jks9199]

jks, you asked in another post where people suggested that it was retaliatory. I wish I had time to go back and find all of the quotes. More than one person said something along the lines of, "If you give a cop a hard time, expect to end up in cuffs." Essentially, the gist is that if you don't pay proper respect to a cop, you get what's coming to you. While I don't doubt that this is true, I think it's reprehensible.

Ultimately, I think cops are civil servants. Getting yelled at isn't something only cops have to endure. Verbal and sometimes physical abuse occur in every service position, particularly any government service position. Social Security reps, IRS reps, vet reps at the VA, and on down to the DMV and other State reps.. you name it, they take all kinds of abuse, and are expected to take the high road, deescalate situations and treat the public with respect regardless of how they're being treated. The only difference between a cop being yelled at by a member of the public and any other government officer is that the cop has the authority to arrest you for being a jackass.

Ultimately, I think that this entire situation is symptomatic of a larger issue in this country, and that's a general apathy and unquestioning acceptance of authority. I'm not excusing Gates' actions or justifying them in any way. I do, however, think that we should all be able to get angry at the fuzz when they appear at your door asking to see ID. Is it right? Maybe not, but it's certainly nothing that should result in an arrest. What's funny to me is that there are so many libertarians on this board and the general consensus seems to be that, yeah, if you mouth off to a cop you'll get arrested. I honestly don't get it. Arrested for being angry, indignant, and belligerant. That is hogwash, and in my opinion, abuse of authority.

It seems clear from his report that Dr. Gates was not working with him, and did not want to listen to any explanation. In his report, Sgt. Crowley says that Dr. Gates was being so loud and belligerent that the sergeant was having trouble hearing his radio and (I admit, I'm reading between the lines on this part) probably wanted some room in case things went bad. Walking away may not have seemed a safe option; more in a moment.

Because I think that you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of the job of law enforcement officer. This post adds to my belief:

MJS, you were writing this as I was typing my response, but this speaks exactly to my point. Short answer: yes. Anyone else would endure the verbal abuse and terminate the conversation. If you came into my office and laid into me, I'd take it to a point and remain polite. Ideally, I'd deescalate the situation and resolve the issue. If that doesn't work, I'd ask you to leave. If I had the option to leave myself, I would. And if I didn't handle the situation like this, I'd be disciplined at least, and fired at worst. This is true at all levels of government, as well as any other service position. Retail managers (who get paid very little) understand this concept well.

A law enforcement officer is a unique civil servant; every other civil servant or government official exists to either let the government do its job (all the clerks who make things move for the various people who do the work) or to provide a service to the public or body politic, ideally one that they cannot provide for themselves. In other words, they let you do things. They may control how or where, but they are there to enable you to do something at heart.

A LEO is different: Their job is, very simply, to be the party pooper. They make you STOP doing something that you want to. LEOs make you comply with the law; they take the law and the government out to you, whether you want it or not.

In the same way, there's an important difference between a police officer and a retail manager. When all is said and done, the retail manager can always walk away, and let someone else handle it. The cop, in the end, has to be able to impose his will on other people who aren't complying.

The cop relies on several factors to achieve this, hopefully without resorting to violence. One of those is simple compliance; people voluntarily submitting to the officer's will, whether that's to go back inside or even submitting to arrest. Compliance only works when there is a degree of respect coupled with confidence that if the people don't comply, the cops will make them comply. As I said earlier, that means that the police have to balance walking away from a disorderly subject with the need to maintain their perceived authority.

Because, when all is said and done, the cop is the one who's job is to make someone obey the law, and bring them before the appropriate officials when they don't.

I've said before, I've been in very similar situations, many times. Sometimes, I've let the person bluster. Sometimes, I've walked away. And, more than once, I've slammed the idiot to the ground and cuffed them. In some cases, I've probably over-reacted. In others, I know I under-reacted because someone else had to come along a few moments later and step things up significantly. It's a tough balancing act.

I'm not saying that this arrest was absolutely essential. Just because an arrest IS justified doesn't mean it's the best or wisest choice. But I am absolutely saying that the arrest wasn't based on race, and that both sides could have handled the entire situation differently.

Sorry if this ends up reading a little disjointed... I'm actually combining two replies that started out separate until I realized that they're really the same problem.

 

[Steve]

Hey Steve,

I think we're on the same page for the most part here.

I agree. I think that people are getting the impression I'm bashing the cops or defending Gates and I'm really doing neither. I just think Crowley made a decision to stay. I think it was a deliberate action on his part. When the fork in the road between leaving and ending the situation or saying, "Screw that. No way I'm going to let this uppity Harvard prof call me names" he chose to stay (note: That was probably not exactly what Crowley's internal voice said, but is intended to be a lighthearted characterization).

...What is missing, afaik, from this debate, is that we don't know what was said between the parties involved.

Honestly, as long as they're just words and didn't cross over into direct, credible threats against anyone, I don't think it matters.

If it has been posted here, my apologies for missing it. What I'm saying is, did the cop say nothing out of line, do his best to de-escalate, etc, and when it wasn't working, made the arrest? Perhaps he was going to leave, and Gates continued on with his rant, to which the cop could have still kept walking, but seeing that Gates now crossed into the disturbance area, opted not to and instead arrest the Prof.

Exactly. You and I see it exactly the same. Only difference is that I believe that opting to stay was a poor decision that exacerbated the situation and caused more harm than good.

Slightly off topic, but related nonetheless, seeing that you mentioned retail. Quite a few years ago, I, as well as my father and grandfather worked in a liquor store, that was owned by a long time family friend. I worked just on Saturdays, from 3-8. One of the regulars came in to purchase lottery tickets. He had ones to cash in as well. During the transaction, I had a feeling that there was a mistake made with the cash, but due to it being busy, continued on, and told my grandfather to make sure he counted the money to double check when he got there on Monday, and if there was an error, to fix it with the customer the next time he came in.

This happened, but apparently this pissed off the customer. IIRC, there wasn't a mistake, but better to be safe than sorry. So, now this guy comes in to get tickets the following Sat., and proceeds to tell me how offended he was that I accused him of ripping the store off. By this time, there was quite a line building and this guy wasn't letting up. I did my best to defuse the situation and trying to justify my standpoint, as I didn't want to be accused of stealing, if there was in fact a shortage.

After quite a few minutes of this verbal abuse, I told him that he was going to have to either finish his purchase or leave the store, as I had others to tend to. He told me that I had to serve him. I told him that I did not, and to leave the store. He told me he was going to call the police, to which I handed him the store phone and asked if he wanted to call or if he wanted me to call. He went on for a few more seconds and then left.

Rare, but not unheard of. I've been in similar situations and might have handled it a little different, although I'm not suggesting you did anything wrong.

The biggest difference here, and an option not available to you, would have been to remove yourself from the situation. If you had the option to leave, it would have been a good one for you. Crowley had this option, but chose not to use it.

Moral of the story....for the small amount I was making an hour and for the short time I was there, I did not need the abuse, and neither did the other customers, who're being subjected to this. I offered up an apology and explaination, to which went ignored, so I escalated to asking and then telling him to leave. Had he stayed, I can assure you I would have called the police and I would not have served him. I can also say that when they arrived, I'd be willing to bet that after they heard my side of the story, that he would have been asked to leave and if he didn't, he'd have been arrested. Had this guy just been calm and listened, the incident would've probably ended sooner than later. Instead he choose, just like Gates, to create a public disturbance.[/QUOTE]I think there are a million ways to handle the situation that wouldn't have allowed it to get this far. The thing is, if you had the amount of training Crowley did, you might have handled it differently and should have.

 

[Steve]

It doesn't make sense to me that he had all of those bullet points going for him just to risk his job and throw it out the window.

How do you think he risked his job? I'm not sure either way he was ever in danger of losing his job. As has been stated many times, no one (certainly not me) is suggesting that the arrest was unlawful. No one is saying that Gates wasn't acting irrationally. I'm suggesting that Crowley should shoulder some of the responsibility for allowing the situation to escalate to the point where a non-criminal was arrested on a chicken### charge for being a jackass.

Once again, isn't there a great risk to a policeman's job if he were to falsify a police report? Why would he risk throwing it all away on some disorderly jerk? Gates misrepresents the situation (which you suggest he did) and it could mean finding a larger audience to purchase his story.

What the heck are you talking about??? You've completely lost me.

 

[jks9199]

It doesn't make sense to me that he had all of those bullet points going for him just to risk his job and throw it out the window.



Once again, isn't there a great risk to a policeman's job if he were to falsify a police report? Why would he risk throwing it all away on some disorderly jerk? Gates misrepresents the situation (which you suggest he did) and it could mean finding a larger audience to purchase his story.

Not only does an officer who knowingly falsifies a report jeopardize their job (and any future related job), but they also can be criminally prosecuted, and sometimes even sued in civil court, too.

Hell of a lot to put on the line over one guy, huh?

 

[jks9199]

How do you think he risked his job? I'm not sure either way he was ever in danger of losing his job. As has been stated many times, no one (certainly not me) is suggesting that the arrest was unlawful. No one is saying that Gates wasn't acting irrationally. I'm suggesting that Crowley should shoulder some of the responsibility for allowing the situation to escalate to the point where a non-criminal was arrested on a chicken### charge for being a jackass.What the heck are you talking about??? You've completely lost me.

Sorry, but, by definition, even if it was a "*********** charge for being a jackass", Dr. Gates became a criminal the moment probable cause existed for his arrest.

I really wish that they hadn't dropped the charges, because that, in part, has fueled this tempest in a teapot.

 

[Steve]

It seems clear from his report that Dr. Gates was not working with him, and did not want to listen to any explanation. In his report, Sgt. Crowley says that Dr. Gates was being so loud and belligerent that the sergeant was having trouble hearing his radio and (I admit, I'm reading between the lines on this part) probably wanted some room in case things went bad. Walking away may not have seemed a safe option; more in a moment.

Because I think that you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of the job of law enforcement officer. This post adds to my belief:



A law enforcement officer is a unique civil servant; every other civil servant or government official exists to either let the government do its job (all the clerks who make things move for the various people who do the work) or to provide a service to the public or body politic, ideally one that they cannot provide for themselves. In other words, they let you do things. They may control how or where, but they are there to enable you to do something at heart.

A LEO is different: Their job is, very simply, to be the party pooper. They make you STOP doing something that you want to. LEOs make you comply with the law; they take the law and the government out to you, whether you want it or not.

In the same way, there's an important difference between a police officer and a retail manager. When all is said and done, the retail manager can always walk away, and let someone else handle it. The cop, in the end, has to be able to impose his will on other people who aren't complying.

The cop relies on several factors to achieve this, hopefully without resorting to violence. One of those is simple compliance; people voluntarily submitting to the officer's will, whether that's to go back inside or even submitting to arrest. Compliance only works when there is a degree of respect coupled with confidence that if the people don't comply, the cops will make them comply. As I said earlier, that means that the police have to balance walking away from a disorderly subject with the need to maintain their perceived authority.

Because, when all is said and done, the cop is the one who's job is to make someone obey the law, and bring them before the appropriate officials when they don't.

I've said before, I've been in very similar situations, many times. Sometimes, I've let the person bluster. Sometimes, I've walked away. And, more than once, I've slammed the idiot to the ground and cuffed them. In some cases, I've probably over-reacted. In others, I know I under-reacted because someone else had to come along a few moments later and step things up significantly. It's a tough balancing act.

I'm not saying that this arrest was absolutely essential. Just because an arrest IS justified doesn't mean it's the best or wisest choice. But I am absolutely saying that the arrest wasn't based on race, and that both sides could have handled the entire situation differently.

Sorry if this ends up reading a little disjointed... I'm actually combining two replies that started out separate until I realized that they're really the same problem.

JKS, I'm not sure I've posted anything that disagrees with any of these points you've made.

Well, I take it back. The only thing here I might disagree with is the idea of imposing the cop's will. When it's done for it's own sake as nothing more than a demonstration of power, I have a problem with that. And that's what I see this as. The catalyst for Gates tirade WAS Crowley. Can anyone honestly suggest that this isn't clear from all accounts? Had Crowley left, Gates would have had no one to yell at. We're talking about an aging academic.

 

[Steve]

Not only does an officer who knowingly falsifies a report jeopardize their job (and any future related job), but they also can be criminally prosecuted, and sometimes even sued in civil court, too.

Hell of a lot to put on the line over one guy, huh?

Jesus guys. Who the hell suggested falsifying a report?

Sorry, but, by definition, even if it was a "*********** charge for being a jackass", Dr. Gates became a criminal the moment probable cause existed for his arrest.

I really wish that they hadn't dropped the charges, because that, in part, has fueled this tempest in a teapot.

BS. By your definition, every person who gets a speeding ticket is a criminal having broken the law. How many cops can stand up to that kind of technical scrutiny?

 

[celtic_crippler]

No, they don't. Not typically. In fact, they aren't usually allowed to call the police or even mall security until they've directed to do so by their LP rep. Of course, each company has their own policies.

Edit: Just in case this goes without saying, I'm not talking about situations in which there is any threat of bodily harm. I'm talking about situations like Gates': yelling, belligerance and regular, run of the mill crazy talk.

I was with you 'til the last. He mismanaged the situation, and that's the entire issue.

Sgt. Crowley made the call after several minutes that Dr. Gates had crossed that line. Whether we like it or not, that is the officer's call. Easy way to avoid it? Don't act like a jack ***. LOL

:deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse
The primary difference is Sgt. Crowley was legally justified in his actions and Dr. Gates was not.

 

[Steve]

Alright guys. While I don't think my position is far removed from anyone else's, nor do I believe it's extreme, I understand that you guys want to vindicate the cop. I get it. He's a paragon of human virtue and beyond reproach. I understand. I'll let it go.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Alright guys. While I don't think my position is far removed from anyone else's, nor do I believe it's extreme, I understand that you guys want to vindicate the cop. I get it. He's a paragon of human virtue and beyond reproach. I understand. I'll let it go.

Not at all!

Is it possible he crossed the line? Perhaps, but where's the evidence?

All the evidence I've seen points to Dr. Gates acting like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum.

From everything that's been reported it shows that Dr. Gates actions fit the bill when it came to what is considered "disorderly conduct."

Cops don't have to write you a ticket for speeding, but they can once they pull you over or they can let you off with a warning.

Sgt. Crowley didn't necessarily have to arrest Dr. Gates either, but Dr. Gates was "speeding" and he got a "ticket."

That's my point. I don't deny yours that he could have let it go. I doubt that it would have done anything to quell the national attention it got though, simply because Dr. Gates is friends with Obama.

 

[Omar B]

Mate, I would not "love to believe you are a member of the black panther movement". In fact I would love to believe that the vicious, hateful black panther movement did not exist at all. I feel the same way about any hateful group that relies on violence and intimidation to further its agenda. I don't believe for one second that you would belong to such a group. I do believe however, that race IS a factor in your decision to support Gates, because of comments you have made on another thread. There is no contesting that Gates' arrest was legal and justifiable. Gates and Obama based their opinions on Gates' arrest on racial motives and I firmly believe that anyone else that harbours the same opinions in someway is racially motivated. If you can't handle that TOUGH.

Believe what you wish man, I told you my bit and that's it. I've lived all over the world and race has never been an issue till I moved to the US at 16. For some reason this country is more fixated on race and skin color than anywhere else I've grown up. I'm Indian, my wife is French, I've lived in 8 countries including Jamaica, Brazil, Burma, Austria, and I've never seen a society where race is this much of an issue.

As I said before and you don't seem to hear, I don't think the old man should have gotten arrested, he could have gotten a warning.