Police Brutality??

[MJS]

wouldnt' matter. Police officers dont stop most crimes last i knew. They can act as a semi-deterrent, but most often than not they show up after the crime was committed. Good lighting, private security cameras, a dog, there are many things that would probably have better results than the after the fact police call.

And for every case of showing up after the fact, there are numerous cases of them showing up while the crime is in progress.

 

[bribrius]

And for every case of showing up after the fact, there are numerous cases of them showing up while the crime is in progress.

i think you got that backwards. :barf:

 

[jks9199]

forget the college kids, you dont see anything wrong with this raid of the club? Sounds like you have a vandetta against college kids. The college kids are the next generation of the country. Personally i think they have more sense than the baby boomers who ran the country into the ******* and by the looks of this we are on the slippery slope going toward a "police state". They sure have more sense than whoever decided to raid that club. what a mastermind of strategy that was.

All these college kids in that club the pd just proved them correct. In doing that raid they just created a hundred more liberals and a couple will probably end up working for the aclu suing police deparments. It did NO GOOD.


i could see doing a drug raid that way, happens all the time, it should be that way. college kids and id checks for underage drinkers in this way is a tad excessive. I am sure they could have found a much more intelligent, prudent way to go about this than raiding it and jacking up college kids with swat gear. This kind of thing is meant for dictatorship countrys. Not this one. If you can't see that i am not sure what to tell you.

Around here they tend to have a little more sense. They work with the club owners, warn them if need be, and make sure bouncers and owners are checking id's and not violating codes. They dont raid clubs and jack everyone up and tell them to lay on the floor. And if swat is called out it is because of a gun man or a drug raid. Not college kids.
what a wast of friggn money just to make the department look like fruitcakes. And it doesn't matter if it were college kids or older people. YOu think older people would be impressed if you walked into and jacked up their blues club and told everyone to lay on the friggn floor your checking id's? I can't picture that going over well.

Let me drop the kid gloves here...

They had more than 100 people over capacity. I think we can take it as given that at least some were drinking or high -- but that's almost immaterial in a crowd like that. The article notes that the enhanced and high visibility enforcement in the area was in response to a shooting incident recently. The article describes the officers as "SWAT"... what I suspect is that the were they as a riot control unit. Which kind of makes sense given what they were dealing with.

Have you ever tried to control a crowd of 100+? All it takes is one asshat, and you've got a full scale riot on your hands. Out of 256 people identified (I guarantee some slipped out without being counted or identified), there were 5 or 6 arrested; the article is a little fuzzy as to whether it was 5 arrests with an additional person who took the Taser's ride, or whether that person was one of the 5. That's not bad, really...

You don't like the way the cops do their job. There just might be reasons that you don't understand. I'm going to make a suggestion to you that I've made more than once before: Do a ride along. Go to a citizen's academy. In short -- inform your opinion.

In the mean time -- what I want is for ADULTS under the law to accept responsibility for their own actions, and to accept that actions do have consequences. If you're going to play like an adult, you have to pay like an adult, too. Of course, after more than a decade of law enforcement experience, coupled with several times that in life experience -- I'm not exactly hopeful that it's going to happen.

 

[bribrius]

You're kidding me right? Its clear these kids were *******s. As I've said a thousand times....99.9% of the time, people bring the issues on themselves. Why did these kids resist? If you feel like you're being wrongly done, file the complaint later, but being a dick at the time, isn't helping. The raid....well, IMO, nobody did anything wrong. The FM was there checking on the capacity of the building. As for the comments and the article....if you read the article, you'll see that there was a shooting not long ago. Recently there has been alot of gun activity in NH, so perhaps the NHPD is taking a stronger stance on things in the area.

I doubt anyone here was there, and unless we know the rules/regs. for the NHPD, and any other details that were not included in the article, we can speculate at best. I say this, because I take what I read in the papers with a grain of salt.

People tend to throw the lawsuit garbage around, as an attempt at grabbing straws. I'm gonna sue because...because....because.....because I was an *******, and made you use more force than you really had to. See, thats the main issue here...people can't admit when they're wrong, so they pass the blame to someone else.

i am over the kids. Dont care about the kids. They are college kids. i dont care if one of them kicked one of the swat team in the head. Dont care if they swore, put up a fight etc. Doesn't matter to me. The problem started with whoever came up with the brilliant idea of using swat to jack up a club for underage drinking. Most kids do drink underage. I did, you probably did, about everyone does. calling in swat for underage drinking isn't acceptable. By the time they got there the party was almost over. It isn't like they were concerned over the kids safety and the occupancy violation. And drunk people tend to not cooperate. No shocker there.

I am more concerned swat was used to jack up the establishment than the college kids and what they were doing.

strange, when i was sixteen i was nabbed for under age drinking. one time was a summons if i recall and a fine. The other the cop just told me to dump it out and stop walking down the sidewalk with it. Oh yeah, and transportaton of liquor by a minor....another fine

I dont recall a swat team...

lots of gun activity. okay. so did they find any on the students? Doesnt look like it. I see nothing about weapons. Was the shooting that took place in that establishment? No.

 

[MJS]

i think you got that backwards. :barf:

Well, whether you believe it or not, is really no concern of mine. However, I've seen it first hand at my job.

BTW, speaking as a member here, not as an Admin, due to the fact that mods/admins that post in threads, are not allowed to moderate them, I'd just like to point out the rules for this section, as they differ slightly from the regular area. I say this, because some posts here are close to crossing the line.

 

[MJS]

i am over the kids. Dont care about the kids. They are college kids. i dont care if one of them kicked one of the swat team in the head. Dont care if they swore, put up a fight etc. Doesn't matter to me. The problem started with whoever came up with the brilliant idea of using swat to jack up a club for underage drinking. Most kids do drink underage. I did, you probably did, about everyone does. calling in swat for underage drinking isn't acceptable. By the time they got there the party was almost over. It isn't like they were concerned over the kids safety and the occupancy violation. And drunk people tend to not cooperate. No shocker there.

And as I said, which you may've missed...unless you know the policies for the NHPD, nobody here has the right to say if they were right or wrong with what they did. Something tells me, judging by your posts, that you have something against cops. Maybe you were the 'victim' at one point, I dont know.

I am more concerned swat was used to jack up the establishment than the college kids and what they were doing.

Again, unless you know the NHPD rules, whether you feel they were right or wrong to use swat, is really a moot point.

strange, when i was sixteen i was nabbed for under age drinking. one time was a summons if i recall and a fine. The other the cop just told me to dump it out and stop walking down the sidewalk with it. Oh yeah, and transportaton of liquor by a minor....another fine

And now we have it....your ill harbored, pent up feelings of hate for the cops.

I dont recall a swat team...

Already addressed this above.

lots of gun activity. okay. so did they find any on the students? Doesnt look like it. I see nothing about weapons. Was the shooting that took place in that establishment? No.

The majoirty of clubs in NH are pretty much in the same general area. As of late, there has been an increase in gun violence. Whether they found any on the kids is moot. Fact is, many of these clubs are in crappy areas, areas of which the violence takes place.

 

[bribrius]

Well, whether you believe it or not, is really no concern of mine. However, I've seen it first hand at my job.

BTW, speaking as a member here, not as an Admin, due to the fact that mods/admins that post in threads, are not allowed to moderate them, I'd just like to point out the rules for this section, as they differ slightly from the regular area. I say this, because some posts here are close to crossing the line.

Welcome to the Law Enforcement Forum.
This forum is designed to discuss LEO techniques, strategies, training, etc. However this forum is not to discuss the social political aspects of Law Enforcement (the op probably broke this just with the article ) if not i we all have now. nor is this forum in any way for bashing Law Enforcement!

MartialTalk's Law Enforcement Forum operates under the following simple rules and policies:
- All normal rules of behavior apply here.
- Law Enforcement Officers are welcome, however must comply with our simple "Law Enforcement Officer Policy" not a leo
- Use of derogatory terms such as "pig" are not welcome. wouldn't do that
- Discussion of active investigations or cases in a trial state are not allowed. hasn't occurred
- Bashing of LEO's and LEO agencies is not acceptable. yeah, i am on that line with nh and this last article... lol

Thank you.

 

[MJS]

Welcome to the Law Enforcement Forum.
This forum is designed to discuss LEO techniques, strategies, training, etc. However this forum is not to discuss the social political aspects of Law Enforcement (the op probably broke this just with the article ) if not i we all have now. nor is this forum in any way for bashing Law Enforcement!

Then RTM the thread smart ***. BTW, the topic is discussing just what the rules say....the strategies that were used.

MartialTalk's Law Enforcement Forum operates under the following simple rules and policies:
- All normal rules of behavior apply here.
- Law Enforcement Officers are welcome, however must comply with our simple "Law Enforcement Officer Policy" not a leo
- Use of derogatory terms such as "pig" are not welcome. wouldn't do that
- Discussion of active investigations or cases in a trial state are not allowed. hasn't occurred
- Bashing of LEO's and LEO agencies is not acceptable. yeah, i am on that line with nh and this last article... lol

Thank you.

Then perhaps, unless you want yourself booted from the forum, you should change your tone! Speaking of RTMing posts, I think I'll RTM a few of yours.

 

[bribrius]

And as I said, which you may've missed...unless you know the policies for the NHPD, nobody here has the right to say if they were right or wrong with what they did. Something tells me, judging by your posts, that you have something against cops. Maybe you were the 'victim' at one point, I dont know.



Again, unless you know the NHPD rules, whether you feel they were right or wrong to use swat, is really a moot point.



And now we have it....your ill harbored, pent up feelings of hate for the cops.



Already addressed this above.



The majoirty of clubs in NH are pretty much in the same general area. As of late, there has been an increase in gun violence. Whether they found any on the kids is moot. Fact is, many of these clubs are in crappy areas, areas of which the violence takes place.

not at all. some officers i like very much, have some in the family if you read my posts, other officers i (can't complete it would be a violation of forum rules). They are like anyone else, there is good and bad.

what you are probably seeing in my post is my political ideology. I wont say what it is, (could be a violation of the rules) but lets just say it isnt a a liberal but i am a huge fan of freedom.

 

[bribrius]

Then RTM the thread smart ***. BTW, the topic is discussing just what the rules say....the strategies that were used.



Then perhaps, unless you want yourself booted from the forum, you should change your tone! Speaking of RTMing posts, I think I'll RTM a few of yours.

i guess you nolonger want to discuss the raid on the nightclub.

 

[MJS]

i guess you nolonger want to discuss the raid on the nightclub.

Sure, lets continue to discuss the club raid. See, herein lies the difference....people can discuss in or out of compliance with the forum rules. The choice ultimately lies with each poster. But when something happens, and those people cry foul, well, in the end, it was their actions that caused the problem.

So...back to the thread.

 

[MJS]

Apparently some people, or at least one person, has issues with the way things were handled by the NHPD. That being said, anytime discussions like this happen, you're bound to get someone who has an issue, and they usually voice their complaints.

What I rarely see though, is alternative solutions. They shouldnt have done this, the cops shouldnt have done that......but what should have they done? I mean, its easy to say this or that, but until you walk in their shoes.......

 

[bribrius]

Sure, lets continue to discuss the club raid. See, herein lies the difference....people can discuss in or out of compliance with the forum rules. The choice ultimately lies with each poster. But when something happens, and those people cry foul, well, in the end, it was their actions that caused the problem.

So...back to the thread.

great. Now if it were you dealing with the night club, how would you have handled it differently instead of the raid?

For the record i dont live there. In case one might think i do. I am a few states away. Been to foxwoods casino in ct. About it.

 

[Cryozombie]

Burglary opportunities if anyone is looking for a career change!

Yes and no.

By the admission of the cops on this board, they don't PREVENT Burglaries, they just respond to them, So...

 

[bribrius]

Apparently some people, or at least one person, has issues with the way things were handled by the NHPD. That being said, anytime discussions like this happen, you're bound to get someone who has an issue, and they usually voice their complaints.

What I rarely see though, is alternative solutions. They shouldnt have done this, the cops shouldnt have done that......but what should have they done? I mean, its easy to say this or that, but until you walk in their shoes.......

judging by the comments under the articles i would say quite a few people have a problem with how it was handled. And now the school is involved, the yale pd is involved to investigate further. who knows how many calls or complaints the nh pd has received.

what is suggested earlier was working with the club owner. Doing a orderly evacuation and carding if need be as they leave. Any bouncers and the owner could aid, only send a few officers inside just for the purpose of ushering the toward the door. Or we could even ask the question why they were so concerned over it to begin with. Only one arrest for underage drinking. No weapons mentioned.

 

[MJS]

judging by the comments under the articles i would say quite a few people have a problem with how it was handled. And now the school is involved, the yale pd is involved to investigate further. who knows how many calls or complaints the nh pd has received.

LOL, of course people who post there are going to have issues. Any time things like this happen, 99% of the general public is going to side with the person who had the run in with the cops. Someone is stopped by a cop, they get pissy, start fighting, resisting, get tased, or brought to the ground, etc., and right away, the cops are in the wrong. Does anyone EVER stop to think that maybe, just maybe, if the person wasn't resisting, 3/4 of the stuff that happened, wouldnt happen?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There's a topic in here, stick to it.
Thats the friendly warning.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I'm gonna take a different angle here. I actually thing that language the cops used, though not even close to brutality, was inappropriate.

To give you some background, I am a police sergeant in the L.A. area, all of which time has been spent in patrol (10 years).

My position is this: if they guy is interfering, tell him to leave, as they did. They had no real reason to curse at the guy. If he doesn't leave and is interfering, take him to jail. What was the point in using profanity towards the guy? All it does is make them look bad and lowers their legitimacy in the eyes of the public, even drunk college patrons. It makes them look like people who can't control their emotions. Now that it's on the web and news, most people will look negatively on the police for using such language in such a circumstance.

Now, that is not to say that there is not a time for profanity. For me they usually involve high stress, physically threatening situations. But I just can't see how this is one of them. It's kinda ironic too, because I just led a briefing on this very topic.

Having said that, there are some specific replies that I want to address:

read the comments. wth is a police department doing sending in swat to a college semiformal for underage drinkers.

If you read the article, it states that the reason the SWAT team was present was because the detail was understaffed for those conditions. It is likely that the SWAT team was on-duty, and rather then pull personnel from other essential duties, the SWAT team was brought in to bolster the numbers of police officers. Like I tell motorcycle cops often enough, you didn't stop being cops because you ride a two-wheeler and write tickets all day. You still know how to take a crime report and handle radio calls. Get to it.

Saying it is above capacity but instead of going to the club manager and doing it properly they have everyone lay on the floor instead of evacuating the club.

So what is properly, and what is your training and experience that would enable you to have such expertise? This:

what is suggested earlier was working with the club owner. Doing a orderly evacuation and carding if need be as they leave. Any bouncers and the owner could aid, only send a few officers inside just for the purpose of ushering the toward the door. Or we could even ask the question why they were so concerned over it to begin with. Only one arrest for underage drinking. No weapons mentioned.

You have possibly not been in a crowded club, getting on a loud speaker to a bunch of drunken people, and telling them that they have to leave before they think they are entitled. I can tell you, from experience, that I am not going to have "a few officers" inside a club "against" 250 people in that kind of situation. That is a powder keg waiting to happen.

Now don't get me wrong, you are an American citizen with all the rights to critique what law enforcement personnel do. But you should come with your "A" game if you want to do so. Because I can tell you, bars and clubs are not the easiest things to clear out, especially since they have drunk and often unruly people inside.

lots of gun activity. okay. so did they find any on the students? Doesnt look like it. I see nothing about weapons. Was the shooting that took place in that establishment? No.

So, as a police officer, I actually have to see a gun before I can bring in the requisite personnel, and hope that I don't get killed in the process? Not likely.

What's funny is that this place is responding to a shooting which occured. You take one of those preppy college kids who's parents are paying $50,000 a year (plus room, board, activity fee, campus fees, parking fee, medical fee, etc.) and let them get hurt due to another shooting, and they'll be complaining about how the police didn't do anything after the first one.

 

[Bruno@MT]

what is suggested earlier was working with the club owner. Doing a orderly evacuation and carding if need be as they leave. Any bouncers and the owner could aid, only send a few officers inside just for the purpose of ushering the toward the door. Or we could even ask the question why they were so concerned over it to begin with. Only one arrest for underage drinking. No weapons mentioned.

Have you ever tried to do an orderly evacuation of 250+ drunk and possibly high college kids? Do you think sending in just a couple of cops to ushser people to the door would work? I guess not, because that is just a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[MJS]

great. Now if it were you dealing with the night club, how would you have handled it differently instead of the raid?

For the record i dont live there. In case one might think i do. I am a few states away. Been to foxwoods casino in ct. About it.

Sigh...had a reply all typed last night...and lost it. Too tired to reply, so here it is...again..lol.

If I were the club owner: Be a legit business man. In other words, make sure your **** is together. Are permits up to date? Are all licenses up to date? Is there ample security? If need be, hire police officers. Make sure that when the building capacity reaches its limit, nobody else gets in. IF **** starts getting out of hand, nip it in the bud...ASAP!

If I were the person in charge of the raid: 1st and foremost, its important to know and adhere to, the rules, regulations, policies, of the NHPD. Given the high risk area, and the high risk for riots, and violence, its important to have a strong show of force. While this may 'set people off' if people didn't act like *******s, and just did what was asked, 99.99% of the headaches that happen, wouldnt happen. I'm sure any of the LEOs here could attest to that. Cop asks you to do something, whether or not you feel it was right, wrong or otherwise, just STFU and do it. If ya wanna file a complaint later, fine, but in the meantime, check your ego and do whats asked. If a situation starts to break out, it gets dealt with accordingly. In other words, if the person isn't cooperating, and starts to resist, the LEO addresses it accordingly, ie: physically restraining the person, taking them to the ground, OC, taser, whatever.