Racist Cop or Combative Professor?

[dnovice]

Professor Gates was on university property.

He is the tenant, Harvard University is the landlord. I believe the university owns all of the residences on Ware street.

Right. But as a tenant you are contracted rights to the property up to a large extent for an amount of time

 

[Steve]

The whole "I object to not being able to question authority" thing....

Oh boy. I can't wait to hear this one. So, you're suggesting that we never question authority?

I think it shows an ignorance of law enforcement and what they can and cant legally do.

NO! I have never argued the legality of Sgt. Crowley's actions. Come on, dude. Work with the drug!

Sure you CAN question authority. You can also stick your finger in a light socket, take pot shots at the white house with an AK, jump from a plane without a chute etc....nothing stopping you. Just know what the possible consequences are going to be.

So, let me get this straight. You're comparing any act of defiance to authority as 1: suicide by electrocution 2: suicide by secret service 3: suicide by... well, squish. So, you're arguing that one should never question the actions of an officer of the law because it's... suicide? Really? That's the argument you're making. What a ridiculous thing to say. Because cops never break the law or do anything wrong. Because nothing bad has ever happened in situations where people obey authority figures unquestioningly.

But more to the point of this thread, I'm suggesting that the cops should be held accountable for their role in engineering a situation. Put it this way (if you'll forgive an analogy). A guy gets rear ended in his car; it's the other guys fault. A guy gets rear ended 10 times in a year... maybe he's doing something to put himself in situations where he's getting rear ended. Even though, technically, it's the other guys fault, at some point the insurance company starts to go, "Hmmm."

Look its not about just knuckling under to authority, its about the REASON the cop is giving you orders.

So, okay, without quoting the rest of your post (which I tried to read carefully to make sure I understand it), you seem to be going off on a tangent about whether or not people can ignore an officer of the law. I don't think anyone but you has suggested doing so.

What we're talking about is whether an officer of the law should take responsibility for contributing to a situation in which he lost control and ultimately arrested someone who had otherwise broken no laws. Or to say it another way, Crowley was as much a part of creating the situation as Gates. Had Crowley left once he realized there was no crime committed, there would be news story. It's not as though Gates was experiencing a psychotic break and his actions were unpredictable.

 

[Archangel M]

At the bottom of all this is the question..who REALLY injected race into this situation? "Impressions" and all aside...who decided to ramp this all up on the basis of race with no proof or even reason to believe based on the situation that it was even a factor?

I don't think it was the cop.

 

[blindsage]

I know why the prefixes exist, I just think they don't have to.

Do you know why the prefixes exist? These groups didn't come here and asks to be treated differently so they could keep ties to their ethnic backgrounds. Their 'different' ethnic identities were socially and institutionally imposed on them for a couple hundred years. But you'll just brush that off like it has no meaning, doesn't happen today, and people should just 'get over it' right?

Now as we are refering to the US, I'm sure if you were to go to certain urban areas of LA or maybe New York, then you will have a problem as your white **** would stick out like a blind coblers thumb. Just think about it.

Well, since I've lived in both L.A. and NY I actually know exactly what it's like, I don't have to imagine. Yup, there's dangerous parts to be white in, gosh those darn racists minorities. Their just out to get me because I'm different from them and white. It's all their fault, there's no context or history that's created that situation. I'm so angry at the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers and the Latin Kings and the Crips for all the oppression and violence I've experienced at their hands.

 

[Archangel M]

Steve..without getting all silly with you. In the end, what do you think being an *** with the cop "just because you can" is going to really accomplish on the street? Dont be ridiculous of course Im not saying that "questioning the cop on the scene is tantamount to suicide"...what Im saying is that you sure CAN if you want to but if that cop has a legal reason to to what he is doing you are certainly going to wind up on the short end of the stick. Even if you have a "rouge cop" on your hands, is acting like Gates going to really change the outcome to your advantage? Go ahead and "question autrhority" all ya want...its the American way...just do it smartly.

 

[Carol]

Right. But as a tenant you are contracted rights to the property up to a large extent for an amount of time

Oh absolutely! The Ware street house is his home, and he has just as much rights to it as I have to my own apartment. (Sorry, the engineer in me occasionally gets stuck on persnickety details )

But, whether renter or homeowner, its still possible to run afoul of the law if you cause too much of a ruckus.

 

[dnovice]

He did "walk away" though. And Gates followed him out yelling and screaming...in front of other people watching from the street...that was the basis for arrest. You (a cop) typically cant charge DisCon if you are the only person being "offended" (cops cant be "offended" for DC)..there either has to be people witnessing or the behaivor is excessively loud during times that quiet is expected (if you are yelling and screaming at 2am..waking up the neighbors).

Right. You mention some good points. Still, he could have continued into his car and driven off... As a cop, he should know the effect his questioning had on Gates and acted appropriately.

 

[blindsage]

Why?

Does it reasonably appear that he shaped the encounter by his perception that it was based on race, and that a white cop was only challenging him because of his race? Were his perceptions based on a racially-derived stereotype? (For that matter, have you read any of the posts on his website, TheRoot.com?)

Since much of the black experience in this country is defined by race and always has been, it's not suprising that he might perceive this situation through that lens. I have read his posts on the Root, I was the one who originally posted links to it on here. None of it would bring me to the conclusion that he is racist against white people. Maybe overreacting, and completely misinterpreting the situation because of the society we live in, but I wouldn't call it racist no.

Or are you suggesting that a black man can't be racially prejudiced?

Ummm....no.

 

[Archangel M]

Right. You mention some good points. Still, he could have continued into his car and driven off... As a cop, he should know the effect his questioning had on Gates and acted appropriately.

I would like to think I would have..but combining the fact of me being "pissed off" with the ability to make a legal arrest...who knows? I fortunately wasnt involved in this fracas.

 

[blindsage]

At the bottom of all this is the question..who REALLY injected race into this situation? "Impressions" and all aside...who decided to ramp this all up on the basis of race with no proof or even reason to believe based on the situation that it was even a factor?

I don't think it was the cop.

The surface answer is, of course, Gates. That's the answer your looking for right? But you say with no proof, granted, and no reason to believe that it was even a factor, so you assume. The black experience in this country in relation to law enforcement has a long, dubious and at times disturbing history, not acknowledging that, regardless of whether Professor Gates actions were good, smart or correct, is disingenuous at best. You don't have any idea if Professor Gates had a reason to believe that race was a factor since you have no idea what his experience with law enforcement is.

 

[Archangel M]

I cant control what people "believe"...I work with facts and evidence. It's way to easy to excuse unreasonable behavior with no evidence of impropriety. I believe thats what the term "dropping the race card" means.

 

[blindsage]

You work with facts and evidence, and large doses of assumption. You call his reaction unreasonable, without knowing anything about his experience with law enforcement. I'm not excusing whatever behavior of his may be inappropriate, but I'm also not pretending we don't have significant issues with race and law enforcement in this country, which evidently has contributed to this situation in one form or another. It doesn't excuse any transgression on Professor Gates behalf, or make officer Crowley guilty of any racist behavior, but it doesn shed light on the reality of the situation whether you want to acknowledge it or just keep the blinders on.

 

[dnovice]

I cant control what people "believe"...I work with facts and evidence. It's way to easy to excuse unreasonable behavior with no evidence of impropriety. I believe thats what the term "dropping the race card" means.

And from experience I hope... since nothing goes exactly according to text book.

As for dropping the race card... that is hard to do. Its not easy to understand unless you've had similar experiences. Would it be easy for you to ignorepeople treating you as a second class citizen? Sure, the race card is abused but after being pulled over numerous times for cops to see if your car truly is yours, or if you have been followed in stores because you don't like you belong throughout your life, you start to see things through a racial lens. These lens are hard to discard. As such I would't say drop the race card, I'd rather say minimize the using race card.

 

[dnovice]

I would like to think I would have..but combining the fact of me being "pissed off" with the ability to make a legal arrest...who knows? I fortunately wasnt involved in this fracas.

If you combine anger and power you get a result based on ego

 

[Archangel M]

If you combine anger and power you get a result based on ego

Again...If the arrest is legal the rest is opinion and really doesn't matter. If I pull you over and was initially going to let you go, but you started acting like an *** so I decided to write you a ticket..would that have been "wrong"...would it have been "improper"...would it have been "illegal"?

 

[Empty Hands]

Well, since I've lived in both L.A. and NY I actually know exactly what it's like, I don't have to imagine. Yup, there's dangerous parts to be white in, gosh those darn racists minorities.

There's no safer person in Compton than a white person. The gangs know you aren't a member...and don't want to shoot their customers. The independents don't want to bring the heat down on them.

Most of the crime victims in the "bad areas" are the residents - the minorities.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I never said blacks couldn't be racist, and I never said the cop was prejudice. Your assumptions are getting the better of you.

You say this and yet tell me that calling Gates racist shows a lack of understanding on my part. You're just ASSUMING that Gates isn't a racist, or at least a race bater. I'm calling Gates a racist because he was offended at the gaul of a WHITE officer, doing his job. He's a racist and by that token so is Obama.

My assumptions are not at all getting the better of me. YOU are a leftist and it is the MO of leftists to express a sympathy for Blacks and other minorities who express racial bigotry, while calling foul on any LEO who has the audacity to do his job, which in this case he was justified in doing.

I am not ASSUMING anything, I am responding to your crazy ASSUMPTION that Gates cannot be a racist.

 

[Big Don]

Regardless of how out of line Professor Gates may have been, calling him a racist indicates a complete lack of understanding of the issues of race in this country.

Because black people are incapable of racism? Ha. That's a good one.

 

[yorkshirelad]

What we're talking about is whether an officer of the law should take responsibility for contributing to a situation in which he lost control and ultimately arrested someone who had otherwise broken no laws. quote]

Losing control would be tazing the guy or punching him in the face or bashing him on the head with his truncheon. Crowley JUSTIFIABLY arrested this idiot. As far as I'm concerned Gates lost control and Crowley controlled the situation.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Well, since I've lived in both L.A. and NY I actually know exactly what it's like, I don't have to imagine. Yup, there's dangerous parts to be white in, gosh those darn racists minorities. Their just out to get me because I'm different from them and white. It's all their fault, there's no context or history that's created that situation. I'm so angry at the Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers and the Latin Kings and the Crips for all the oppression and violence I've experienced at their hands.

Well aren't you the regular Hemingway, off on all your little adventures. As you say there are places where it IS dangerous to be white. I suppose those whites who do get their heads kicked in by the poor minorities should just understand that its their own fault, for being white and that instead of being angry they should just accept that the poor minorities are angry.