"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[KPM]

I just realized how far from the original question this thread has gotten LOL.

It started with me asking, "If we take it as an indisputable fact that wing chun has no outside game, and learning another art is necessary to fill that gap, then what long-range (by that I mean KICKING) style would be a good match with it?"

That question was never answered, although it WAS briefly addressed when someone asked why I thought tae kwon do was out.

I answered it.

 

[wingchun100]

I've posted several times in this thread, and I certainly contributed nothing related to the OP, Steve.

It's okay. I kind of set myself up for this. LOL

 

[wingchun100]

I'm not so sure Steve. I think it may be a simple matter of "your" WC not having an "outside" game (ie kicking)...which, I note, you did not specify in your OP but added to this post.
You should ask your Sifu to teach you some of WC's 'outside game/kicking' methods...?
Just my .02.....but haven't had much coffee yet this morning.

I wasn't talking about the lineage I'm learning. I was talking about a blanket statement made by Dan Inosanto in a video, and I thought to myself, "If I were to assume that's true, what style would best fill the gap?"

Anyone who has learned past the first form has kicking in their Wing Chun. I don't know any lineages that teach Chum Kiu without kicks.

 

[Vajramusti]

Inosanto and his mentor Lee have/had very limited knowledge of wing chun to make that comment on wing chun's "outside game".

 

[wingchun100]

Inosanto and his mentor Lee have/had very limited knowledge of wing chun to make that comment on wing chun's "outside game".

Yes, but they aren't the only ones to have said it.

And not for nothing, but many people have said (about many different styles) that no one system has all the answers.

Therefore, I think it was a perfectly reasonable question to ask. And not for nothing, but talking about what they did or did not know still doesn't address the thread's question. LOL

 

[wingchun100]

Also, in the same video, Dan Inosanto talks about how he has trained with a wide variety of Wing Chun people. (The only name I remember him dropping is Augustine Fong.) In other words, he still has that opinion of the system even after heavy exposure to it.

 

[KPM]

Also, in the same video, Dan Inosanto talks about how he has trained with a wide variety of Wing Chun people. (The only name I remember him dropping is Augustine Fong.) In other words, he still has that opinion of the system even after heavy exposure to it.

Not Augustine, but Francis. Inosanto has spent a lot of time with Francis Fong and studied at one point with Moy Yat. And I agree. I think Inosanto likely has a very good understanding of Wing Chun and what it can and can't do.

 

[wingchun100]

Not Augustine, but Francis. Inosanto has spent a lot of time with Francis Fong and studied at one point with Moy Yat. And I agree. I think Inosanto likely has a very good understanding of Wing Chun and what it can and can't do.

Right. Well, it's been a while since I saw that video. Plus I have Augustine on the brain because that is who my current teacher learned from.

 

[Hazardi172]

It started with me asking, "If we take it as an indisputable fact that wing chun has no outside game, and learning another art is necessary to fill that gap, then what long-range (by that I mean KICKING) style would be a good match with it?"

I don't agree that VT lacks anything in terms of standing striking. It has an outside game. Adding kicks from TKD or some other system would not be possible because it has a completely different approach.

 

[Hazardi172]

[If you realize that it is a training drill then your previous comment is not comprehensible in terms of the conversation up to this point

---Sorry Guy. I meant that we are all familiar with your viewpoint by now.

I think you have me confused with someone else.

I am asking what is trapping range. You are answering that it is the distance between 2 people doing the bong laap drill. I don't see what relevance this has to fighting?

---And I answered about trapping range. It has been explained now more than once.

Your answer so far is that trapping range is a place you stand in order to do direct fighting applications of the Laap Sau drill. Ok

 

[wingchun100]

I don't agree that VT lacks anything in terms of standing striking. It has an outside game. Adding kicks from TKD or some other system would not be possible because it has a completely different approach.

I never said Wing Chun lacked anything in terms of standing striking. I never even said I AGREE that it lacks outside game. All I said was, "Let's say that was the truth. What long-range system COULD be added to fill the gap?"

 

[Hazardi172]

I never said Wing Chun lacked anything in terms of standing striking. I never even said I AGREE that it lacks outside game. All I said was, "Let's say that was the truth. What long-range system COULD be added to fill the gap?"

None

 

[wingchun100]

None

Well, some of us around here need to learn to agree to disagree.

 

[Hazardi172]

Well, some of us around here need to learn to agree to disagree.

I'm happy if you think differently, I just can't think of a system that would integrate well with VT for kicking

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I just can't think of a system that would integrate well with VT for kicking

If your opponent wants to punch you, he has to put weight on his leading leg, at that particular moment, if you sweep, or low roundhouse kick at his leading leg, you can interrupt his forward attack.

You don't have to integrate a MA system into WC. You can just integrate a "strategy" into WC. That "strategy" can be as simple as "Not to let your opponent to put enough weight on his leading leg".

 

[Vajramusti]

Right. Well, it's been a while since I saw that video. Plus I have Augustine on the brain because that is who my current teacher learned from.

----------------------------------------------
Who is your current teacher?

 

[wingchun100]

----------------------------------------------
Who is your current teacher?

I'm kind of homeless right now. I mean, I train with a Sifu, but in his words, I don't "represent" him at this point. We haven't trained together long. In the past I trained with Russ Cichon, who is from the Ip Ching lineage.

 

[Juany118]

I think Juany and KPM are talking about doing applications of the Laap Sau drill at a particular "trapping range"

Since you are unfamiliar with wing chun (?), I will talk directly to those two, rather than talking to you about your interpretation of what they are trying to say to avoid confusion. No offence, just don't want to get bogged down in endless chat

No we weren't. We were simply noting a reference point in relation to the original point. The idea of applying laap da was used to further illustrate this reference point. Though admittedly some WC systems do trap in such a manner to facilitate a strike, that wasn't the original point of mentioning it . I even specifically mentioned that I was never taught that terminology in my WC training. I simply find it useful as a reference point in discussions like this.

All fighting is fluid as you say but every fighting system I know has a "sweet" spot. That sweet spot for WC/VT is what was referred to alternately as trapping range, elbow range and laap da range. A sweet spot doesn't mean you can't fight in other ranges, other positions. Yes we can kick, yes we can punch, we can use clever footwork to dance between such ranges but there is still that "sweet" spot.

 

[Juany118]

I just realized how far from the original question this thread has gotten LOL.

It started with me asking, "If we take it as an indisputable fact that wing chun has no outside game, and learning another art is necessary to fill that gap, then what long-range (by that I mean KICKING) style would be a good match with it?"

That question was never answered, although it WAS briefly addressed when someone asked why I thought tae kwon do was out.

Well I answered it, though perhaps not in the way you expected. I currently study one form of WC, studied another some time ago (I actually had to make some changes to the SLT I used to practice on moving to the new school). Both of them teach me that WC has an outside game. Since the premise of the OP is something I can't relate to I noted where I see the main gap being.

 

[Hazardi172]

No we weren't. We were simply noting a reference point in relation to the original point. The idea of applying laap da was used to further illustrate this reference point. Though admittedly some WC systems do trap in such a manner to facilitate a strike, that wasn't the original point of mentioning it .

All fighting is fluid as you say but every fighting system I know has a "sweet" spot. That sweet spot for WC/VT is what was referred to alternately as trapping range, elbow range and laap da range. A sweet spot doesn't mean you can't fight in other ranges, other positions. Yes we can kick, yes we can punch, we can use clever footwork to dance between such ranges but there is still that "sweet" spot.

I disagree that there is any sweet spot that is worth differentiating from other positions. Either you can hit or you cannot. "Trapping" range, punching range, kicking range- why make these artificial distinctions? What is "trapping", and what differentiates it from regular hitting?