"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Bino TWT]

Yeah. finally saw the video. The hand trapping did work but you did get mounted.

I dont know.

Yes, I did eventually. It was inevitable all things considered. Had I not been severely handicapped in the exchange, it would have went quite different.
They couldn't take me down from no contact, so we started from the clinch.
They couldn't handle me in the clinch, so we started on the ground.
They were overwhelmed with my strikes, so I was not allowed to strike.

So keep in mind this is me using WT against a BJJ practitioner, starting on the ground from contact and me not being able to strike. You often see where I would "park" my hand to let him know, "hey, that's a hit".

Not to mention my cardio has went to **** because I have torn ligaments in both knees so I was physically at a disadvantage as well.

To put in into perspective, it took him almost 4 minutes to get me before I gassed out and let him have it. He was wrapping up the purple and blue belts in under a minute.

Anybody that's doing 4 or 5 minute rounds with a Gracie Barra BJJ instructor on the ground is holding their own in my book, especially if they don't know BJJ... Any striking art like WT that can hold up under pressure in this situation without actually being able to strike is definitely effective in that range if applied properly.

 

[Juany118]

Yes, I did eventually. It was inevitable all things considered. Had I not been severely handicapped in the exchange, it would have went quite different.
They couldn't take me down from no contact, so we started from the clinch.
They couldn't handle me in the clinch, so we started on the ground.
They were overwhelmed with my strikes, so I was not allowed to strike.

So keep in mind this is me using WT against a BJJ practitioner, starting on the ground from contact and me not being able to strike. You often see where I would "park" my hand to let him know, "hey, that's a hit".

Not to mention my cardio has went to **** because I have torn ligaments in both knees so I was physically at a disadvantage as well.

To put in into perspective, it took him almost 4 minutes to get me before I gassed out and let him have it. He was wrapping up the purple and blue belts in under a minute.

Anybody that's doing 4 or 5 minute rounds with a Gracie Barra BJJ instructor on the ground is holding their own in my book, especially if they don't know BJJ... Any striking art like WT that can hold up under pressure in this situation without actually being able to strike is definitely effective in that range if applied properly.

The dynamic you note is one of the things I often see when MA's from different methodologies meet. One, or both, want things on "their terms" so the boxer wants no kicking and grappling. The grappler wants to start from a contact at a minimum etc. These kinda "rules" are not uncommon in exhibitions.

 

[drop bear]

The dynamic you note is one of the things I often see when MA's from different methodologies meet. One, or both, want things on "their terms" so the boxer wants no kicking and grappling. The grappler wants to start from a contact at a minimum etc. These kinda "rules" are not uncommon in exhibitions.

That is the point of cross training though. To explore different dynamics.

I mean if I want to punch kick and grapple all at the same time, all the time. I would never leave my club. But then I would never get to train with specialists in their own fields. And therefore never gain those elements to add to my game.

Pure grappling for example is a will game. Bino lost that roll because he chose to. All the other could'a would'a should'a doesn't change that one very important lesson

Those lessons are the reason why you put yourself into those circumstances. You learn how much you can take. Which is important if you want to use martial arts against someone.

 

[KPM]

Ok, now you're tagged lol. There was another Greg Saunders in the group and I tagged the wrong guy at first.

This is one of the reasons I dislike FB-based forums and prefer bulletin-board style forums like this one. A FB forum is simply not very searchable, its easy to loose track of conversations, and hard to go back and find anything after it has rolled on down the page and disappeared. I did a search and found your post on the FB forum where you noted your training session with the BJJ guys and had 3 pictures up, but no video. My search did not turn up a video. Is there any way to make this video available for others to watch?

 

[karatejj]

Yes, I did eventually. It was inevitable all things considered. Had I not been severely handicapped in the exchange, it would have went quite different.
They couldn't take me down from no contact, so we started from the clinch.
They couldn't handle me in the clinch, so we started on the ground.
They were overwhelmed with my strikes, so I was not allowed to strike.

So keep in mind this is me using WT against a BJJ practitioner, starting on the ground from contact and me not being able to strike. You often see where I would "park" my hand to let him know, "hey, that's a hit".

Not to mention my cardio has went to **** because I have torn ligaments in both knees so I was physically at a disadvantage as well.

To put in into perspective, it took him almost 4 minutes to get me before I gassed out and let him have it. He was wrapping up the purple and blue belts in under a minute.

Anybody that's doing 4 or 5 minute rounds with a Gracie Barra BJJ instructor on the ground is holding their own in my book, especially if they don't know BJJ... Any striking art like WT that can hold up under pressure in this situation without actually being able to strike is definitely effective in that range if applied properly.

Uh dude, where is this video??

 

[JowGaWolf]

I was thinking of a video Dan Inosanto did where he said wing chun had "no outside game." He was talking about long-range stuff, of course. Over the last few months I thought about this statement, and it made me wonder: what style with long-range attacks would make a good hybrid with wing chun?

I don't see tae kwon do being one. In TAO OF JEET KUNE DO, Bruce Lee had some notes about savate, but I have never seen that style demonstrated so I can't say one way or the other. Lately I have been thinking that Muay Thai might be the best mix. It has long-range attacks, but it is also known as the "Art of 8 Limbs" because there are also elbow attacks. Plus Muay Thai fighters are also known for getting up close and personal by getting their opponents in "the clinch."

Anyway, it was just a thought I had about what long-range style would fit best with wing chun conceptually.

I guess it will depend on how long your "long range" needs to be. Because of what I focus on in training, footwork is highly important and will allow a fighter to overcome a long range fighter. If you can manage and dictate the distance then you shouldn't need another system. In my opinion the majority of WC practitioners don't practice effective footwork. Their footwork seems to only cover a limited space and doesn't go beyond the concept of a small side street.

 

[Juany118]

That is the point of cross training though. To explore different dynamics.

I mean if I want to punch kick and grapple all at the same time, all the time. I would never leave my club. But then I would never get to train with specialists in their own fields. And therefore never gain those elements to add to my game.

Pure grappling for example is a will game. Bino lost that roll because he chose to. All the other could'a would'a should'a doesn't change that one very important lesson

Those lessons are the reason why you put yourself into those circumstances. You learn how much you can take. Which is important if you want to use martial arts against someone.

My issue is both sides should be willing to do so at the same time. One side saying "nope my rules now and btw don't record when I don't do well" because that is the scenario here. Starting from range, BJJ guy lost. Starting from standing contact, here lost. Starting from where they did basically played to the strengths of BJJ and it still took a LONG time for him to get mounted. To me that isn't people cross training, rather that is one side looking for a scenario to be shown to the public where they come up on top to justify their methodology.

Now if striking was at least allowed on the ground was allowed I wouldn't be as annoyed by this but, too me, cross training in this kind of style vs style thing resorting to the rules of one style isn't cross training, it's one side engaging in hubris requiring their strengths be served. That just seems "off" to me.

 

[Ironbear24]

First off, why you do need an "outside game"? You just work on getting inside and improve on skills you already have.

 

[Bino TWT]

ok guys, i'm going to upload the video privately to my youtube channel and give you guys the link. I'll post it here for you, but please respect the fact that it's not for the "public", meaning it stays here.

 

[drop bear]

My issue is both sides should be willing to do so at the same time. One side saying "nope my rules now and btw don't record when I don't do well" because that is the scenario here. Starting from range, BJJ guy lost. Starting from standing contact, here lost. Starting from where they did basically played to the strengths of BJJ and it still took a LONG time for him to get mounted. To me that isn't people cross training, rather that is one side looking for a scenario to be shown to the public where they come up on top to justify their methodology.

Now if striking was at least allowed on the ground was allowed I wouldn't be as annoyed by this but, too me, cross training in this kind of style vs style thing resorting to the rules of one style isn't cross training, it's one side engaging in hubris requiring their strengths be served. That just seems "off" to me.

If you turn up to a BJJ club you are probably going to have to roll. Sorry that is just the way it works.

I turn up to karate sparring I dont face punch people. I go to boxing I dont double leg guys.

It is about approaching training with a proffesional attitude.

That is why people say if you want to prove your system or yourself jump in the cage. Because then you can kick punch and wrestle pretty much all you want. That is how you get to see if your ground and pund really does beat their submissions.

But then you have to risk getting bashed in front of 800 people.

 

[Bino TWT]

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Good job Bino!

 

[geezer]

"Bino" that clip should be made public. Probably the best "full-body chi-sau" I've seen. Talk it over with your sifu and the Gracie guy. I mean that's just good cross-training or cross style sharing. Didn't see any negatives, like excess of ego, etc. And the fact that eventually the Gracie guy got you in his mount? Well duh! That's what they are all about. And you did a very good job at displaying WT principles, even on the ground, even without striking. Well done all around.

On top of that it looked like fun. But then I'm a WT oddball who always liked grappling, so maybe that's just me....

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He wasn't doing much good at controlling you for the majority of that video. He was too patient, or too used to being patient, IMO.

 

[Juany118]

If you turn up to a BJJ club you are probably going to have to roll. Sorry that is just the way it works.

I turn up to karate sparring I dont face punch people. I go to boxing I dont double leg guys.

It is about approaching training with a proffesional attitude.

That is why people say if you want to prove your system or yourself jump in the cage. Because then you can kick punch and wrestle pretty much all you want. That is how you get to see if your ground and pund really does beat their submissions.

But then you have to risk getting bashed in front of 800 people.

What you say there is fine.

It's was a seminar with what I see as a flawed progression that was described in this particular scenario. "Okay we could not beat you starting without contact. We couldn't beat you starting while standing at contact. We could beat you here, with no striking whatsoever... and that's they only video you are allowed.". When I have crossed trained it has always been a mutual exchange. Everyone learns, everyone acknowedging their weakness and they don't try to hide it. Here we seem to be having a person at a seminar and a person at the seminar wanted to hide their weaknesses. That's is half the problem we are dealing with in these threads.

 

[Nobody Important]

Nice job Bino! @KPM @geezer & others when I talk about functional Chi Sau & how Yuen Chai Wan style performs double circling hands & waist bending in a manner more like pummeling, this video is very similar to what I'm talking about. Since Yuen family has heavy grappling emphasis & I do a little catch, drilling like this is common & IMO way more functional than traditional Chi Sau platform. Thanks again for sharing Bino, great job representing your art.

 

[JowGaWolf]

^^^^^ Good job Bino!

The best thing I like about that video is that he didn't abandoned his system and it worked out really well until he was put on his back. I have a lot of respect for those who find a solution within their own system.

 

[Martial D]

The best thing I like about that video is that he didn't abandoned his system and it worked out really well until he was put on his back. I have a lot of respect for those who find a solution within their own system.

You have to admit though, if he knew BJJ too that sweep would have never worked.

 

[JowGaWolf]

"Bino" that clip should be made public. Probably the best "full-body chi-sau" I've seen. Talk it over with your sifu and the Gracie guy. I mean that's just good cross-training or cross style sharing. Didn't see any negatives, like excess of ego, etc. And the fact that eventually the Gracie guy got you in his mount? Well duh! That's what they are all about. And you did a very good job at displaying WT principles, even on the ground, even without striking. Well done all around.

On top of that it looked like fun. But then I'm a WT oddball who always liked grappling, so maybe that's just me....

Lol if we see it pop up in MMA then we will know where it came from. Lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

You have to admit though, if he knew BJJ too that sweep would have never worked.

I didn't see a sweep. I saw some one giving up the standing game willingly.