Mr Hayes' original practices of ninjutsu

[lalom]

Again, none of what this thread has lead up to matters. What Hatsumi Soke and SKH have between them are personal issues that are none of our business in the grand scheme of things.

You say it matters "to someone who wants to train." Absolutely wrong. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point which has taken obvious turn here. If someone indeed wants to train. All they have to do is one thing... train. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Whichever style of taijutsu one would desire to train in is a personal choice. I believe you've alluded to the same thing. However, what Soke and SKH have between them should be of no concern to us and should have no bearing on our training.

If someone desires to train in a Japanese methodology, go to Japan or find many of the Bujinkan Budo schools. If one desires to have a "westernized" delivery/format in their training, train in TSD or find one of the various Bujinkan schools that use the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum.

Listen to the moderator warning please.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If someone desires to train in a Japanese methodology, go to Japan or find many of the Bujinkan Budo schools. If one desires to have a "westernized" delivery/format in their training, train in TSD or find one of the various Bujinkan schools that use the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum.

That's assuming they're smart and patient enough to do enough research to differentiate between the two. When I see a new crop of beginners show up these days, I either think "great, another bunch of people with zero ability to do critical thinking" or "here's a new bunch of late 30something guys so satisfied with themselves that they'll never lay off their Shotokan mannerisms".

 

[lalom]

Nimravus, I concur...

 

[Cryozombie]

Whichever style of taijutsu one would desire to train in is a personal choice. I believe you've alluded to the same thing. However, what Soke and SKH have between them should be of no concern to us and should have no bearing on our training.

I disagree with this for the simple reason that people SHOULD be aware of it so that they dont make a mistake that could cost them face in the future. I dont think this sort of thing applies just to the Bujinkan/Toshindo thing, but in many arts, or your job, or even relationship...

 

[mystic warrior]

I will say it once again that Stephen Hayes truly helped to bring Budo Taijutsu (Soke's fantastic brand of martial science) out into the limelight and for that I am grateful to him. He has now gone his own way and that is that. I choose to train in the Bujinkan and am happy to do so but if someone is training in To Shin Do then I hope they are happy as well.

That would be great sir if more people were like that. However every person thinks that there thoughts on any matter are the only one that count.
And I am sure long after this post dies there will be another one on this forum or MAP or others just like this.
Because as I have see on these things people LOVE to beat a dead horse. And what kills me is, Soke has told people to let this die. However no seems to care what he has to say otherwise post like this would not happen.
But it seems like there are to many people with way to much time on there hands and it could be better spent on training. But that is just me. And i am sure I will be blown off by the rest of the readers.
But just think of it this way. For a Soke that you all claim to love so much. Why are you all going against his wishes. It would seem like alot of lip service is being payed to a great man. But not much else.

 

[ghengis.john]

I disagree with this for the simple reason that people SHOULD be aware of it so that they dont make a mistake that could cost them face in the future. I dont think this sort of thing applies just to the Bujinkan/Toshindo thing, but in many arts, or your job, or even relationship...

This post reminds me of an aikido seminar I once attended featuring a prominent aikido instructor from Japan. All the US aikido students revered this man like he was a god, and they hung on his every word. Being new to aikido I wasn't as star-struck as everyone else and I simply spoke to this sensei like he was just a normal guy. He chose to sit next to my fiancée' and I during dinner and this made all the other US students jealous. It all seemed rather petty and disingenuous to me. Now I think of that poor old Japanese teacher while reading these posts and I feel sorry for Hatsumi sensei.


Now I don't mean to get crazy with the cheez whiz here, but do you think it's possible that maybe Hatsumi soke is just a guy? Here's something to blow some minds: if Hatsumi sensei had treated every word Takamatsu soke had ever spoken as gospel, then Hatsumi would never have taught ninjutsu to non-Japanese students and this entire argument would be a moot point.

 

[Cryozombie]

This post reminds me of an aikido seminar I once attended featuring a prominent aikido instructor from Japan. All the US aikido students revered this man like he was a god, and they hung on his every word. Being new to aikido I wasn't as star-struck as everyone else and I simply spoke to this sensei like he was just a normal guy. He chose to sit next to my fiancée' and I during dinner and this made all the other US students jealous. It all seemed rather petty and disingenuous to me. Now I think of that poor old Japanese teacher while reading these posts and I feel sorry for Hatsumi sensei.


Now I don't mean to get crazy with the cheez whiz here, but do you think it's possible that maybe Hatsumi soke is just a guy? Here's something to blow some minds: if Hatsumi sensei had treated every word Takamatsu soke had ever spoken as gospel, then Hatsumi would never have taught ninjutsu to non-Japanese students and this entire argument would be a moot point.

You are missing the Point. My post was in reference to how Hatsumi said Dont Train with Hayes or in Toshindo if you are in the Bujinkan.

Explain how honoring that request is Treating him like a God?

 

[Cryozombie]

Why are you all going against his wishes. It would seem like alot of lip service is being payed to a great man. But not much else.

Because every other day someone from Hayes camp pops up proclaiming everyone in the Bujinkan is wrong, Hayes is still Bujinkan, and it IS ok to crosstrain if you are Bujinkan.

If Hayes and his people would accept this is wrong and drop these untruths, we would not need to keep talking about it to set the record straight for Bujinkan students who might get confused.

 

[ghengis.john]

You are missing the Point. My post was in reference to how Hatsumi said Dont Train with Hayes or in Toshindo if you are in the Bujinkan.

Explain how honoring that request is Treating him like a God?

Personally, I feel that hanging on and honoring every word that Hatsumi soke utters is a bit irrational. This same irrational behavior is evident in almost every martial art, every church, and just about every human institution that I've ever come into contact with. I believe that most humans want to elevate some "enlightened" person to do all their hard thinking for them. So, when I suggested that your post appeared devotedly religious in nature, I was simply using religion as an archetype for any blind devotion.

Now, my point is this: train with who you want to train with. Hatsumi soke doesn't have to sanction your daily breakfast choice does he? Why should it be any different with what school of thought (ninjutsu) you choose to explore each day? People who choose to learn under two different schools of ninjutsu simultaneously will only confuse their own training.

 

[Don Roley]

Now, my point is this: train with who you want to train with. Hatsumi soke doesn't have to sanction your daily breakfast choice does he? Why should it be any different with what school of thought (ninjutsu) you choose to explore each day?

I could not disagree more. If you are training in the Bujinkan and expect Hatsumi to be your teacher, you have to respect his wishes on certain things or be ready to walk out the door.

If you come to him with the request to teach you something, is it not reasonable that you respect his request on how and who you train with?

If you don't like it, you don't have to stick around. We won't miss you. I can respect someone who says he does not like the expectations put on him and leaves. I do not respect someone who expects others to fill their roles but won't responding in kind.

If someone likes Hayes more than Hatsumi, I can respect that. But they should know all the fact to make an informed decision. And it also stops a lot of the problem of people trying to post things under a false impression here. As long as people understand that a lot of what Hayes teaches does not come from Hatsumi despite the impression they may get, then the potential for flame wars decreases a lot.

And on a side note, I do not think that John's (cryofthezomobie) comments were anything other than common sense. No religious aspects or failure to critically think. I further do not see anything in what Takamatsu said that would have prevented Hatsumi from teaching non Japanese. You do not seem to be making much of a good impresion so far. Maybe if you were more careful that would change.

 

[Arachne]

Please make some space in your private message box.

 

[Kreth]

Please make some space in your private message box.

Who is this addressed to?

 

[Bigshadow]

Probably Don. I tried to PM Don a couple days ago and it was full.

 

[Seattletcj]

I believe that most humans want to elevate some "enlightened" person to do all their hard thinking for them. So, when I suggested that your post appeared devotedly religious in nature, I was simply using religion as an archetype for any blind devotion.

I have found it useful when looking at different martial arts styles and religions to apply the B.I.T.E test.

http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm


If you are checking off numerous things from the list, it should raise a red flag. Maybe something to think about. Maybe not.
As the site says "It is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present."

P.S- I'm not referring to anyone or anything specifically. Just some info I personally find useful.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

I might be inclined to agree. The Togakure video I have shows some pretty extensive physical training. In fact you look and most everyone was well in shape. Now it seems like we have more overweight people in the Bujinkan than Sumo. (intended to be a joke) :rofl:

I have not yet had to practice flipping over swords and other projectiles. And unfortunatley I am a bit flabby around the middle to do some of the stuff on that video. Does it affect my movement... to be determined.

:ninja:

Oh God, that comment at the end of the first paragraph caught me off guard. Uncalled for perhaps, but funny as heck!

 

[kwaichang]

Just found this topic:

I trained with SKH and Hatsumi Sensei in the 80's, in Japan.....ground is VERY HARD.

The training was very physical and no one was out of shape.

SKH has said in the past (I was there) that teaching Americans is different from teaching Japanese and he was given permission to start his own teachings here.

Ninjitsu is an historical art and jumping over swords, etc. is integral to understanding its roots, if not completely applicable in todays streets and alley ways.

 

[Kreth]

I trained with SKH and Hatsumi Sensei in the 80's, in Japan.....ground is VERY HARD.

and

Ninjitsu is an historical art and jumping over swords, etc. is integral to understanding its roots, if not completely applicable in todays streets and alley ways.

Just curious why, with comments like the above, and being a "personal student of Stephen K Hayes (from your profile), you consistently spell the name of the art incorrectly? :idunno:

 

[kwaichang]

and

Just curious why, with comments like the above, and being a "personal student of Stephen K Hayes (from your profile), you consistently spell the name of the art incorrectly? :idunno:

Your question is legitimate, however, if you "google" ninjitsu, you'll see that it is spelled both ways.

When I trained and for years the art was called Ninjitsu. In fact, in the "Hawk" video I have from the late 80's, even Stephen pronounced it that way. I know that his books always spelled it Ninjutsu but old habits are hard to break. It can also be called Togakure Nin-Po Taijutsu, while SKH.s new name for HIS art is To-Shin Do.
It is the same art just as Togakure villagers decided decades ago to change the pronounciation of their village to discourage "ninja seekers" from trampling all over the mountain.

Train well; fall easy.

Stephen and I photos from "Lore of the Shinobi Warrior" Vol V, 1989, Ohara Publications

 

[Bigshadow]

Out of curiosity, what is the significance of the picture?

 

[kwaichang]

Out of curiosity, what is the significance of the picture?

Oh, just credibility.:shrug:

In the book it's used to show how you use what ever is thrown at you and don't anticipate.