Mr Hayes' original practices of ninjutsu

[Toshindo4ever]

You should say that To-Shin Do has everything the Bujinkan HAD when he was very active within that organization. I am not going to rehash the whole Hayes/Hatsumi argument because short of being there we don't know what happened and all we have to go by is secondhand knowledge. Frankly, I believe there has been a falling out between the two; NOT THAT IT MATTERS TO US THOUGH!

What? You believe it? You have not asked Anshu for the truth?

You claim to be a student of Anshu and yet you listen to the rumors spread on the internet by people that are jealous of Anshu. You owe it to the truth to get it from Anshu.

And Anshu has been to Japan to train with Hatsumi sensei almost every year. So I would think he knows just how much has been dropped out of what has been taught. But since he has both the old knowledge and the new experiences, it is the best of both world.

 

[Kreth]

It says I have to spread it around some before giving you some rep Kreth. I owe you a few.

It's ok, same thing happened to me when I tried to rep your earlier post... :lol:

 

[Kreth]

What? You believe it? You have not asked Anshu for the truth?

Wow, I can almost see the capital T.

You claim to be a student of Anshu and yet you listen to the rumors spread on the internet by people that are jealous of Anshu.

I'm reasonably sure that bydand is your sempai. Doesn't he deserve your respect?

 

[bydand]

What? You believe it? You have not asked Anshu for the truth?

What Mr. Hayes and myself have talked about in the past is strictly between the two of us. Same as the conversations I have had with several "Hombu Shihans" about the matter

You claim to be a student of Anshu and yet you listen to the rumors spread on the internet by people that are jealous of Anshu. You owe it to the truth to get it from Anshu.

I am a student, true. I do not listen to idle rumors, but to compelling evidence that like I said earlier, doesn't make a bit of difference in my personal training. I do not try to make Mr. Hayes out to some sort of Demi-god or more than he is, I highly doubt he needs your help in this silly argument on the internet. If you are so concerned, talk to him and point him to this website so he can address the issue himself.

And Anshu has been to Japan to train with Hatsumi sensei almost every year. So I would think he knows just how much has been dropped out of what has been taught. But since he has both the old knowledge and the new experiences, it is the best of both world.

Um, no. To-Shin Do ISN'T Bujinkan anymore and hasn't been in a LONG time. It is To-Shin Do, a different art that had it's birth through the Bujinkans teachings and knowledge, but now has found it's own pair of legs and is walking alone.

 

[Toshindo4ever]

I am a student, true. I do not listen to idle rumors, but to compelling evidence that like I said earlier, doesn't make a bit of difference in my personal training. I do not try to make Mr. Hayes out to some sort of Demi-god or more than he is, I highly doubt he needs your help in this silly argument on the internet. If you are so concerned, talk to him and point him to this website so he can address the issue himself.

Anshu is far too busy to try to catch every rumor being told on the internet. Anyone who wishes to ask him can join his forum and get an answer. Why should he have to deal with all the screaming and bad mouthing of petty folks who won't even try to post on his forum?

And you should be concerned about the reputation of the man you claim as your teacher. People are trying to make him out to be a liar. And who would want to train under a liar? And that is how they try to tear him down. They can't attack his knowledge or skill, because he is the most skilled practicioner outside of Japan. So they attack his reputation by making up these stories.

If you really want to say that you believe the rumors, try asking Anshu in his public forum. Let us see the answer you get and how you will be treated inside Toshindo for your actions.

 

[kwaichang]

I find this discourse most disturbing.
As a personal student of SKH since "Shadows of Iga" days (now retired) I am obliged to advise you that SKH is a most honorable and just person. That said, Hatsumi-Sensei is a generous and understanding GM. Neither are prone to falsehood and to those of us who know or knew them well, the direction of this thread is an afront.

 

[newtothe dark]

Very much. I have found most of these forums to go this way. No matter the starter it always ends the same "my side is right and you are wrong" its like going to a church where they say the other faiths no matter which ones is a cult. It comes down to the excitement of the new student and the greed of the old teachers. What a shame.

 

[Toshindo4ever]

I find this discourse most disturbing.
As a personal student of SKH since "Shadows of Iga" days (now retired) I am obliged to advise you that SKH is a most honorable and just person. That said, Hatsumi-Sensei is a generous and understanding GM. Neither are prone to falsehood and to those of us who know or knew them well, the direction of this thread is an afront.

You are quite wise.

Anshu is quite clear in saying that he is still a student of Hatsumi sensei. That is what he says in public. He talks about notes and such that he still recieves from Hatsumi sensei to help him make the old arts effective in the modern world. Hatsumi sensei is said to have kicked Anshu out of the Bujinkan- BUT WHERE ARE THE PUBLIC STATEMENTS?!?!?!?!?

This is not a Hatsumi sensei vs Anshu debate. This is between the two of them on one side and a whole bunch of rumor mongers on the other.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Hayes may teach material based on what he learned while he was actively training with Hatsumi, but he is not teaching current Bujinkan material. He (Hayes) himself stated that "I was captivated by the idea of translating the gift of Hatsumi Sensei's lessons into a form that could serve my own culture and people back in America."

Translated. It is a known fact that things change when translated. The heart, the intent, might be there, but over time Hayes ToShinDo has evolved into a completely different art than the current Bujinkan Taijutsu, though both do share many common roots.

Enjoy the art you do, stop sucking on the tit of the kool aid monster and drop the mask of the "True Believer" and you'll have more fun here.

 

[kwaichang]

Hayes ToShinDo
has evolved into a completely different art than the current Bujinkan Taijutsu,
.

Which is exactly why it isn't called Bujinkan any longer and should not be considered a mirror image, however faulty, but rather a totally new reflection.

 

[Toshindo4ever]

Hayes may teach material based on what he learned while he was actively training with Hatsumi, but he is not teaching current Bujinkan material.

Do you see the problem with the idea of "current" Bujinkan training when we talk about an art hundreds of years old?

Hayes learned things back when he could have a close relationship with Hatsumi sensei. His Japanese is flawless. Now certain things have had to be dropped because the quality of students have degraded.

The idea that some things may not be taught now and that you can't get it from many of the people going to Japan just drives some people nuts. So they spread rumors that the way Anshu does things is some sort of mistake. The truth is, Anshu has seen more stuff than they ever will.

 

[Kreth]

Now certain things have had to be dropped because the quality of students have degraded.

Again, what *in your personal experience* has been dropped? Or you just repeating what Hayes told you?

 

[Toshindo4ever]

Again, what *in your personal experience* has been dropped? Or you just repeating what Hayes told you?

In case you were wondering, you have shown your bias and you hold a lot of power here. I am not ignoring you, I am just being prudent in not responding and giving you an excuse.

I think that people can make their own judgements based on the fact that one person is trying to goad another when he has said he won't respond.

 

[arnisador]

Now certain things have had to be dropped because the quality of students have degraded.

May I remind you that Mr. Hayes also teaches his art by video?

 

[Kreth]

Just to be clear, you have shown your bias and you hold a lot of power here. I am not ignoring you, I am just being prudent in not responding and giving you an excuse.

Our staff policies here do not allow us to act in an official fashion when we're involved in a thread. If there are any repercussions, it will be because you violated forum policy and other mods became involved.

 

[bydand]

This is not a Hatsumi sensei vs Anshu debate. This is between the two of them on one side and a whole bunch of rumor mongers on the other.

Then let it drop. If it is between the two of them, that puts you into the "rumor monger" category.

In case you were wondering, you have shown your bias and you hold a lot of power here. I am not ignoring you, I am just being prudent in not responding and giving you an excuse.

And I have NEVER in the past couple of years seen Jeff act from personal feelings when it comes to a debate that may be taking place that he is involved in. NEVER have I seen him use his Mod powers to punish somebody he is in a debate or even heated argument with. To insinuate such, with no indication of that possibility, shows a lack of maturity.

I think that people can make their own judgements based on the fact that one person is trying to goad another when he has said he won't respond.

And yet you do still respond, and to think others will not answer those responses just because you think you are right and they are wrong is just silly.

Our staff policies here do not allow us to act in an official fashion when we're involved in a thread. If there are any repercussions, it will be because you violated forum policy and other mods became involved.

Had no doubt here, or anybody else who has posted more than a few times on MT and know what high character you hold yourself to.

 

[newtothe dark]

Our staff policies here do not allow us to act in an official fashion when we're involved in a thread. If there are any repercussions, it will be because you violated forum policy and other mods became involved.

I have never seen you misuse your power in alot of very heated debates you are always fair and to have someone say otherwise shows they haven't spent any time reading old posts which is also why we are beating this old *** horse again.

 

[Kreth]

Had no doubt here, or anybody else who has posted more than a few times on MT and know what high character you hold yourself to.

Aw, shucks...

 

[kwaichang]

Aw, shucks...

Is that a corn Joke?:angel:

 

[The Last Legionary]

In case you were wondering, you have shown your bias and you hold a lot of power here. I am not ignoring you, I am just being prudent in not responding and giving you an excuse.

I think that people can make their own judgements based on the fact that one person is trying to goad another when he has said he won't respond.

Staff here operate under a strict set of guidelines and the owner isn't afraid to call them on problems.

Me, I'm not on staff and can say, you're coming across a bit of a fanatical nutter more stuck in "awe struck newb student" mode than "sincere student of the art" mode.

Dr. Keil prescribes a cranialrectalectemy.