Mr Hayes' original practices of ninjutsu

[Brian R. VanCise]

So I am a newb.....? But the two basic things that I keep reading, is this.

"To-Shin Do is the same as Bujinkan" TSD guy

"No, To-Shindo is not the same as Bujinkan" Buj Guy

"Yeah well, Bujinkan Sucks!" TSD guy

"Oh, dirt bag, well SKH Sucks!" Buj guy

"Screw you Hayes still trains with Hatsumi" TSD guy

"No, he doesn't, and if you had been to Japan in the last 3 months you'd know that." Buj guy

"****! HE was there last week." TSD guy

"No he wasn't cause I was there" Buj guy

" Well I asked Hayes myself and he's called B.S. on the whole deal" TSD guy

" He's a liar Hatsumi says this." Buj guy

" No way, Hayes says this! Hatsumi is a liar" TSD guy



All of this kind of translates to......" My dad is tougher than your dad, and he'll kick your dad's butt!"

?????? I know before anybody posts nobody has come out and said these things verbatum. However, it really is kind of the undertones. Whether Mr. Hayes still trains with Hatsumi or not, Whether they like each other or not, it's your opinion, you are most assuredly entitled to it. Well, if you live in America you are free to one anyways.

I would like to make this one point and yes, I'm new to the art of To-Shin Do but this is a good point for those of us that are trying to learn from Mr. Hayes, or one of his students. I myself had not practiced what I have learned. I think this should apply to the Bujinkan guys also. It may makes things a little bit easier to swallow. It's the answer you have all been looking for. At the Quest Center that I attend we have a what we call a "Code of Mindful Action" Number 8 reads as follows: "I encourage all to speak purposefully from the heart. I avoid the dull contentment of gossip and small talk."

I think all of us, including me, should think about those two sentences and what they mean to us, and to, these threads about TSD and Bujinkan. I think the reality, is you can have 20 people see a thing happen, and if you ask all twenty of them, they will all twenty tell you something different. Like Obi-Wan Kenobi tells Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi. " Luke you'll find as you get older that many of the truths that we cling to, are dependent upon a certain point of view"

No one knows what's going on between TSD and Bujinkan, or Hayes and Hatsumi, except the two people involved. That's my peace and have a good day everybody, please don't rip on me too hard, I am sensitive. LOL

Nicholas,

First let me say I think that you should be excited about your training and To Shin Do is a very good system to study. So please enjoy it. However, you are not quite correct in your interpretation and that is simply because you have not been around very long. I have attached a link to the post put on George Ohashi (hombu dojo administrator) BBT board that was put out awhile ago in regards to the situation where Hatsumi Sensei had Hayes Judon plaque removed. It speaks for itself. Now I have all the world of respect for Stephen Hayes and his wife Rumiko. They are excellent martial practitioners and you should be proud to be studying in their tradition.

Continue to train in To Shin Do and enjoy it.

Here it is:

 

[Cryozombie]

No one knows what's going on between TSD and Bujinkan, or Hayes and Hatsumi, except the two people involved.

Not really the case, no.

Here's the thing, IMO. !IMO!

When the Hayes guys come on here and tell people he's still Bujinkan, because he says so, when they tell new students who come into their schools that they can get Bujinkan rank, etc etc... they are doing a huge disservice to those students who may actually want to earn Bujinkan Ranks.

Why?

Hatsumi has stated numerous times students who are training with the Genbukan, Jinenkan, Toshindo, etc... are NOT welcome to train with the Bujinkan. Period. So regardless of what SKH says about this... it's against the rules of our organization, and to tell students otherwise IS a huge deception.

It's like... If you ask someone with loose (or no) affiliation to a Club what that groups rules are, why in the world would you take their word over the "president" of the other organization, or its Chapter heads?

 

[kwaichang]

I don't suppose the Mods might agree this topic has been beaten to death and taken many a nasty turn; and close it?:soapbox:

 

[Sukerkin]

I could've sworn I'd posted something in here about people being expected to treat each other with respect and politeness ...

... that must've been another thread along similar lines .

I don't want any of the gentlemen who have posted immediately prior to this to think that it's targeted at them; it's not, it's a general piece of Moderator advice.

This thread has two official warnings in it already and if the debate is not kept at a civil level then there will not be a third. If you can't agree no matter what, then use the Ignore feature as has been previously suggested.

If you don't want to do that and someone persists in posting up something that is in breach of board policy or will not abide by the normal conventions of social interaction, then please use the RTM (Report to Mederator) button rather than getting the flaming brands and pitchforks out.

The Moderating Team do deal with things that are reported - just because it's not seen in the 'public' spaces doesn't mean that it doesn't happen - so don't think that hitting RTM is a waste of time. If it's genuine, then it's handled.

Thankyou for listening. You may now return to your scheduled ... discourse .

 

[kwaichang]

Thankyou for listening. You may now return to your scheduled ... discourse .

Thanks: from the ranks.

 

[Sukerkin]

:lol:

You are more than welcome, good sir :rei:.

 

[SKB]

SO TSD can't train with Buji? Man I screwed up!!! Damn I have trained with the "others"!!! AND the "others" have trained with me!!!! Man they screwed up in Japan when they let TSD folks train there!!!!!

Now not being 'smart' about this........... you got to be kidding me????? I have trained with people who have trained in Japan, both TSD and Buji???? ANNNNNNDDDDDD before you even start, some of them had just returned from Japan this year and days before we trained................

 

[kwaichang]

Ma Te: YAME!!

 

[Cryozombie]

SO TSD can't train with Buji? Man I screwed up!!! Damn I have trained with the "others"!!! AND the "others" have trained with me!!!! Man they screwed up in Japan when they let TSD folks train there!!!!!

Now not being 'smart' about this........... you got to be kidding me????? I have trained with people who have trained in Japan, both TSD and Buji???? ANNNNNNDDDDDD before you even start, some of them had just returned from Japan this year and days before we trained................

Yes well, People will always "break the rules" thats just the way it goes. It doesn't change the rules. I mean, I speed... doesn't mean that it's not against the law...

As far as the issue of showing up in Japan and training, Don Roley addressed this issue in the past on here, and he had far more first hand knowlage of it than I do, since he was living there at the time, so I would refer you to search his threads on the subject for the "Complete" answer to that issue... but I will paraphrase what he said IIRC. One of Two things happen... the TSD guys dont identify themselves as TSD, or They do, and in the manner of the Japanese, they are not told to leave, they are simply not accorded the same level of help/respect/instruction that they would if they were not. Again... Don's posts addressed that in detail, I'm only paraphrasing what he said.

And Sorry, SBK, I'm not going to take the word of a random Toshindo student about what is allowed in the Bujinkan over the word of one of the original Shihan and what has been posted on the Hombu's BBS. Again, that just doesn't make sense: Its like a Masonic Brother asking the President of the Local Moose Lodge for the Rules of the Masonic Temple down the street...

 

[kwaichang]

Hey, was that a Moose joke.

 

[SKB]

Well I am only saying what I have seen and done with my own eyes and hands. Not what someone else is telling me. Maybe if it is rude over there to tell someone they are not wanted and to go away, and folks claim to be learning stuff from over there, those of us over here should not be so condeming of people?

Just a thought.

 

[kwaichang]

Well I am only saying what I have seen and done with my own eyes and hands. Not what someone else is telling me. Maybe if it is rude over there to tell someone they are not wanted and to go away, and folks claim to be learning stuff from over there, those of us over here should not be so condeming of people?

Just a thought.

and a solid one.....nothing in my decades of training has remotely approached what some have said here yet I do not claim to know all that goes on and with respect, neither should they.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

One of Two things happen... the TSD guys dont identify themselves as TSD, or They do, and in the manner of the Japanese, they are not told to leave, they are simply not accorded the same level of help/respect/instruction that they would if they were not. Again... Don's posts addressed that in detail, I'm only paraphrasing what he said.

And Sorry, SBK, I'm not going to take the word of a random Toshindo student about what is allowed in the Bujinkan over the word of one of the original Shihan and what has been posted on the Hombu's BBS. Again, that just doesn't make sense: Its like a Masonic Brother asking the President of the Local Moose Lodge for the Rules of the Masonic Temple down the street...

Not to sound judgmental, but if this is actually true, I'd try to hide that fact about my organization, for it would be violating the very nature of Japanese Budo. Such prejudice is looked down upon by the martial arts world as a whole, and in the end brings forth the fowl ridicule said organization may be receiving on media tools like YouTube.

 

[Cryozombie]

and in the end brings forth the fowl ridicule

Chicken Ridicule? LOL.

Actually I hear more negative said about "Our" art (and by OUR Im lumping Toshindo in with Buj, as well as Genbukan, etc...) from the ******** home study course crap put out by Both Hayes and Von Donk.

Cuz, Kid, if you aren't part of the solution...

And you will pardon me, if I assume you know less about actual Japanese Budo spirit than the Japanese.

 

[stephen]

Not to sound judgmental, but if this is actually true, I'd try to hide that fact about my organization, for it would be violating the very nature of Japanese Budo. Such prejudice is looked down upon by the martial arts world as a whole, and in the end brings forth the fowl ridicule said organization may be receiving on media tools like YouTube.

The Japanese culture and language (to many extents) is based on a firmly rooted us/them dichotomy, much more than many other cultures.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

Chicken Ridicule? LOL.

Actually I hear more negative said about "Our" art (and by OUR Im lumping Toshindo in with Buj, as well as Genbukan, etc...) from the ******** home study course crap put out by Both Hayes and Von Donk.

Cuz, Kid, if you aren't part of the solution...

And you will pardon me, if I assume you know less about actual Japanese Budo spirit than the Japanese.

Actually less than one percent of Japanese people study the martial arts, as Hatsumi-sensei has revealed before. It's about as popular as musket training over here in the States. My name's Scott, forgive me for not signing out with it the first time.

But from what I've seen, they make fun of the slow movements and (what they perceive as) unrealistic attacks done by some of the shihan on the youtube videos. Most people who haggle An-Shu Hayes are (proclaimed) Bujinkan members (though I doubt it because I've heard the Bujinkan is a more respectable origanization than their attitudes suggest) and how Hayes shouldn't have created To-Shin Do.

 

[Cryozombie]

But from what I've seen, they make fun of the slow movements and (what they perceive as) unrealistic attacks done by some of the shihan on the youtube videos. Most people who haggle An-Shu Hayes are (proclaimed) Bujinkan members (though I doubt it because I've heard the Bujinkan is a more respectable origanization than their attitudes suggest) and how Hayes shouldn't have created To-Shin Do.

Haggle means "to barter with" so I assume you mean hassle.

It probably IS Bujinkan members. Hayes created a LOT of bad blood... I know and also know of a number of former Hayes students who became upset after spending years studying with him/in his schools when he "sold" toshindo rank to existing TaeKowndo schools and their like to get the program up and running... they felt like all the time and effort they put in meant nothing, so they "abdicated" to the Bujinkan, and you had bujinkan members with "Bad Blood" right there. Then he dug his hole deeper with the comments he posted in his own blog on his site about Hatsumi's ability and how he (Hayes) made the art "workable" and "real" further creating a divide between Toshindo and Bujinkan.

 

[ToShinDoKa]

Haggle means "to barter with" so I assume you mean hassle.

It probably IS Bujinkan members. Hayes created a LOT of bad blood... I know and also know of a number of former Hayes students who became upset after spending years studying with him/in his schools when he "sold" toshindo rank to existing TaeKowndo schools and their like to get the program up and running... they felt like all the time and effort they put in meant nothing, so they "abdicated" to the Bujinkan, and you had bujinkan members with "Bad Blood" right there. Then he dug his hole deeper with the comments he posted in his own blog on his site about Hatsumi's ability and how he (Hayes) made the art "workable" and "real" further creating a divide between Toshindo and Bujinkan.

Haggle? LOL Thanks for the correction, it was after a long day of work and I was seconds away from taking my afternoon nap (I love naps).

But yeah, so I've heard this before, that is, the selling ranks bid and so forth and can't really speak for To-Shin Do back then. I can tell you about it now, though. I can honestly say To-Shin Do instructors are some of the most humble and simultaneously fearsome martial artists there are. I know nothing they do looks like Tae Kwon Do (I used to study TKD when I was a kid) and I can tell you An-Shu Hayes' insight into teaching the classical kata and helping us see how we can apply it to a more modern attack, as well as other facets of life is so inspiring and empowering, that his organization grows larger and larger, gaining more and more respect, and is even mending old wounds with some Bujinkan members.

The first Bujinkan member I ever met was at one of our seminars. He was a nidan and very open, and enthusiastic about the training the host instructor was providing. Me being only 6th kyu at the time, it was a rare privilege to be teamed up with him because he imparted some very useful henka knowledge I still remember and apply today. The most important thing about that experience was that he showed me my stereotype was wrong. On the internet, so called Bujinkan members would be hurtful and insulting, direspectful and not very upbuilding, trying to prove others as not authentic when the martial arts world doesn't fully even accept the authenticity of Dr. Hatsumi's scrolls.

But this one was none like that, no, he was kind and helpful, a true teacher and friend, and through him my respect deepend for the Bujinkan (that is their non-Japanese members, because they seem to be the only ones commenting on internet forums).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Scott first off more than not people accept the scrolls of Dr. Hatsumi. Just because he does not wish to part with them is no reason to dispute this. That is where people get in trouble in that they say things during the course of a debate to tear down someone else.

As to Stephen Hayes and To Shin Do? Personally I think it is great that he has an avenue for his own personal creativity. Clearly it was time for him to move in that direction and he did so. However, before that he brought a lot of people into the Bujinkan because of his writings and promoting Hatsumi Sensei. Literally he brought Hatsumi out into the light of the world that otherwise would have taken a little longer. To that I am grateful to him.

 

[kwaichang]

first off more than not people accept the scrolls of Dr. Hatsumi. Just because he does not wish to part with them is no reason to dispute this. That is where people get in trouble in that they say things during the course of a debate to tear down someone else.

The Japanese government has seen and authenticated the scrolls; they are real and valuabe in the lineage, so why would Hatsumi ever want to part with them without giving them to a successor?

As to Stephen Hayes and To Shin Do? Personally I think it is great that he has an avenue for his own personal creativity. Clearly it was time for him to move in that direction and he did so. However, before that he brought a lot of people into the Bujinkan because of his writings and promoting Hatsumi Sensei. Literally he brought Hatsumi out into the light of the world that otherwise would have taken a little longer. To that I am grateful to him.

Also 100% true. Hatsumi told SKH that it was time and gave him his blessing and permission to start his own style which -would attrack students outside of classical Japanese studies (my words but the gist of it).