Mr Hayes' original practices of ninjutsu

[ginshun]

If you really want to know about the matter, contact Ben Cole by PM and see if he wants to talk about it.

Actually that should read:

"If you want to hear Stephen Hayes bad mouthed, contact Ben Cole by PM and see if he wants to talk about it"

 

[Cryozombie]

Would you guys please ****ing stop.

Thank you.

This whole Hayes is GOD/Hayes SUCKS argument is So overdone, old, passe, lame and just a pain in the ***. No Hayes people will admit hes wrong, and most Bujinkan guys wont admit hes right, so lets ****ing drop it.

 

[lalom]

Thank you Techno! Couldn't have said it better.

 

[eyebeams]

Again, when I said "hard" I was referring to the style of movement, not the intensity of training.

 

[Don Roley]

This whole Hayes is GOD/Hayes SUCKS argument is So overdone, old, passe, lame and just a pain in the ***. No Hayes people will admit hes wrong, and most Bujinkan guys wont admit hes right, so lets ****ing drop it.

Don't know if that was directed at me. But if it is, I think I should point out that I was just trying to counter the idea that Hayes had a monopoly on the truth.

This is yet another case where someone posts something from Hayes and I say that it just does not jive with some of the stuff I have heard in Japan recently. The last time ended up with Hayes' name being taken down and a huge flame war here. I do not want another war. But there has been some buzzing here in Japan about Hayes over the summer and I would caution about accepting his version of things.

In any case, if you really doubt my word and want a straight answer, I think you can find some way to ask Hatsumi directly about the matter and keep the fireworks off of this board. Trust me, get him alone to ask him and he will not hesitate to give you an answer about early training in the Bujinkan.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Just a slight tangent.

What is SKH's status as a/the leader of the "ninja boom"? I remember the 70's-80's when SKH hit the scene in the US and how the craze for anything "ninja" started up, predominantly on his back here in the US. How much credit or respect does the man deserve, regardless of the current unpleasantness, for the popularity, worldwide status of the art today?

As a person whos experience in ninjutsu/bujinkan is limited to books and info on art politics limited to the internet I was just wondering.

 

[Koinu]

Just a slight tangent.

What is SKH's status as a/the leader of the "ninja boom"? I remember the 70's-80's when SKH hit the scene in the US and how the craze for anything "ninja" started up, predominantly on his back here in the US. How much credit or respect does the man deserve, regardless of the current unpleasantness, for the popularity, worldwide status of the art today?

This comes up quite often and there are like always going to be many points of view, Some valid some not and like all things the valid points even though they may differ are all still valid.
IMHO He was just the messenger who many people confused with the Message !

 

[ginshun]

I am sorry, I am not trying to cause any problems. I just think refereing somebody who is looking for information on Steve Hayes to Ben Cole is rediculous.

Its about the same as somebody looking for information on President Bush and somebody else telling them to go ask Howard Dean.

Sure, you'll get information, I just want that person to realize what type of information they can expect to get.

 

[lalom]

Good point. And to ask Hatsumi Sensei about Hayes is not the best advise either IMO. Obviously, he has some issues with him. Neither side will ever see eye to eye. And in the grand scheme of martial arts, it really doesn't matter.

We just need to get back to training. Those that seek Hatsumi Sensei's art will - those that seek An-Shu Hayes' art will as well.

 

[Don Roley]

Good point. And to ask Hatsumi Sensei about Hayes is not the best advise either IMO. Obviously, he has some issues with him.

I do not understand that logic at all.

If you want to say that Hayes and Hatsumi are still on good terms, then saying that you should not confirm this with Hatsumi due to issues is...... well.... contradictory.

And considering that Hayes claims Hatsumi as his teacher, the best way that you can find out what Hayes claims is true or not is to go to the person who supposably taught him. If you try to say that Hatsumi would actually lie about something like this, I don't think you will get a good reception. And if you think that Hatsumi would lie about the matter, why automatically assume that Hayes would be more honest? Would it not be in his best interest to add extra qualifications to his story?

 

[lalom]

I think what my main point was: It doesn't matter. It is very possible that neither of these men will give a real, honest answer. It is also very possible that either of them care what we think. Seems, IMO, like they have a problem with each other. It's between them. I choose to leave it there.

 

[Don Roley]

I think what my main point was: It doesn't matter. It is very possible that neither of these men will give a real, honest answer. It is also very possible that either of them care what we think.

Are you joking? I do not know how you can think that Hayes does not care what other people think about his relationship with Hatsumi. Did you miss the little storm over what he was putting on his web site? I do not believe you can say with a straight face that Hatsumi would take down Hayes' name from the training board in public and not care if people know what he thinks about Hayes.

And if you had been here in Japan at all in the last few months, you could make a decision from a more knowledgable position. Have you ever met either person? If not, how are you so certain as to what they really think?

And I am pretty sure that Hatsumi would be able to give us an honest answer as to what he has taught students in the past. I trust him. I know some people he does not like, but still acknowledges their accomplishments.

 

[saru1968]

I think what my main point was: It doesn't matter. It is very possible that neither of these men will give a real, honest answer. It is also very possible that either of them care what we think. Seems, IMO, like they have a problem with each other. It's between them. I choose to leave it there.

Its does matter when one claims to be a current student and is not.

Simply put a lie.

Even if SKH was still a student, the lack of actual time invested in training in Japan at Honbu in the last ten years means he is completely off track anyhow.

 

[Anti-hero Zero]

Remember, that Haye's was relatively inexperienced when he first started writing books. Sure Hatsumi's movement has changed that is called progress! However, to call what training was back then as more or harder than it is now is just not right based on my first hand experiences in Japan or the US for that matter.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

No disrespect intended Mr. VanCise, but didn't your training in ninjutsu begin approximately between 1990-1993 (13-16 years ago) according to what appears to be your own dojo website located here:
http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com/instructors.html

How is that you can personally confirm how ninjutsu was taught in the 70's? Some people believe that ninja can harness what the CIA would later term "remote viewing"... is this post-event remote viewing an example of how good you are?

On a side note, I do have a quite a bit of respect for the Filipino martial arts. I wish you the best and hope you keep up the good training.

Bows,
AH

 

[Don Roley]

How is that you can personally confirm how ninjutsu was taught in the 70's? Some people believe that ninja can harness what the CIA would later term "remote viewing"... is this post-event remote viewing an example of how good you are?

Sheath the claws, please.

No one seems to think that Brian is personally confirming that training was the same. But the sources he has and evidence all seem point to that. I myself cannot personally confirm that there is a country called China, having never been there. But I feel just about as confident in saying it exists as Brian is in saying that the training has not changed.

And if you doubt his word, perhaps you should ask those guys teaching in Japan who were around at the time. Or view clips from that period. They all seem to back up what Brian and others are saying.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No disrespect intended Mr. VanCise, but didn't your training in ninjutsu begin approximately between 1990-1993 (13-16 years ago) according to what appears to be your own dojo website located here:
http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com/instructors.html

How is that you can personally confirm how ninjutsu was taught in the 70's? Some people believe that ninja can harness what the CIA would later term "remote viewing"... is this post-event remote viewing an example of how good you are?

On a side note, I do have a quite a bit of respect for the Filipino martial arts. I wish you the best and hope you keep up the good training.

Bows,
AH

I confirm with what I have been told by my seniors in the art. Their words are more than good enough for me. On a side note there are also video clips of training during that time period and that training is like what I have personally witnessed in Japan.

 

[lalom]

Are you joking? I do not know how you can think that Hayes does not care what other people think about his relationship with Hatsumi. Did you miss the little storm over what he was putting on his web site? I do not believe you can say with a straight face that Hatsumi would take down Hayes' name from the training board in public and not care if people know what he thinks about Hayes.

And if you had been here in Japan at all in the last few months, you could make a decision from a more knowledgable position. Have you ever met either person? If not, how are you so certain as to what they really think?

And I am pretty sure that Hatsumi would be able to give us an honest answer as to what he has taught students in the past. I trust him. I know some people he does not like, but still acknowledges their accomplishments.

For you I understand why it would matter. Like some here and other boards - they spend so much of their efforts trying to be the next internet Soke. Then it would matter.

But for those just interested in training, it won't and doesn't. What we think doesn't change anything about our training in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I will say it once again that Stephen Hayes truly helped to bring Budo Taijutsu (Soke's fantastic brand of martial science) out into the limelight and for that I am grateful to him. He has now gone his own way and that is that. I choose to train in the Bujinkan and am happy to do so but if someone is training in To Shin Do then I hope they are happy as well.

 

[Bigshadow]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-David Russ
-MT Moderator-

 

[Don Roley]

For you I understand why it would matter. Like some here and other boards - they spend so much of their efforts trying to be the next internet Soke. Then it would matter.

But for those just interested in training, it won't and doesn't. What we think doesn't change anything about our training in the grand scheme of things.

Listen to the moderator warning please.

But it does matter to someone who wants to train. If they see what they want in Toshindo, fine. But if they think that what they are getting with Toshindo is what is being taught in Japan, then they are wrong. If they think that things like Hayes' Godai was somehow based on something Hatsumi used to teach, then it is important to inform them of the truth.