McDojo Pt. 2 -- Follow up Thoughts

[Kong Soo Do]

But in my opinion the number of years to BB is irrelevant. Only the intensity of training is important, and that's something that one can never see on a bulletin board, so these discussions can go back and forth forever.

Can't argue with you here, well spoken.

 

[Tez3]

How intensely though can a five year old train? or a seven year old etc? Eighteen year olds yes of course, we have any number of athletes in many sports that train intensely but children?

 

[Markku P]

I've met 2 year BBs with more knowledge and ability than 8 year BB's, and vice versa. Depends how focused and enquiring the person is.

In my experience of testing to date, those who do not meet the standard at a KKW grading fail. That includes kids.

Gnarlie

I agree with this

 

[Markku P]

BBs issued to children are for the ego of the parents. It is a marketing tool. Once schools started issuing BBs to teens things inevitably spiraled downwards in terms of age requirements.

I think this is not correct. If kid is training 3-5 years of course he (or she) should get his black belt if instructor feels that way. It has nothing to do do with parents. By the way, I saw in Korea (1985 ) kids who had black belts (1-4 dan) and their technical level was amazing.

 

[Tez3]

I wouldn't say all parents are pushing to have their children get black belts but over the years I've certainly seen parents try to pressure us into grading their children beyond what they should be. Then again I've also had pressure in Scouting from parents to give as many badges to their sons as possible. My daughter used to compete in show jumping and there were very pushy parents there too. It's something a lot of parents do so they can have boasting rights, it starts with 'my baby was sleeping all through the night aged one week, it goes on to 'my child was walking at six months and reading Dickens at age 2' then continues right through to 'my child is a black belt karate/TKD aged 6'. Happens everywhere and certain places can make a lot of money out of those parents.

 

[Rumy73]

I think this is not correct. If kid is training 3-5 years of course he (or she) should get his black belt if instructor feels that way. It has nothing to do do with parents. By the way, I saw in Korea (1985 ) kids who had black belts (1-4 dan) and their technical level was amazing.

So a kid who is 6 can be a black belt at age 9, because he has trained? if BB only means time spent training, then fine. If means maturity, leadership and responsibility, then a child has no business having one. Excellent technique is only the physical side.

 

[msmitht]

It is true that a 4th poom is possible by 15 but not a 4th dan. Kkw regulations clearly state that you must be 21 in order to test for 4th DAN. The difference is that a 4th poom may not promote anyone to dan/poom level.

 

[Gorilla]

It is true that a 4th poom is possible by 15 but not a 4th dan. Kkw regulations clearly state that you must be 21 in order to test for 4th DAN. The difference is that a 4th poom may not promote anyone to dan/poom level.

Not how I read it and not how it has been explained to me! I am open to change my mind? Please provide your source...

If it is the case I fine with that! Just not how I read it...

BTW it is 4th Dan by 18 if you are a 3rd poom before 13....I could be wrong!!!!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So a kid who is 6 can be a black belt at age 9, because he has trained? if BB only means time spent training, then fine. If means maturity, leadership and responsibility, then a child has no business having one. Excellent technique is only the physical side.

In KKW taekwondo, a first dan/pum represents completing the beginner's course. In Korea, it takes one year to get to first dan/pum.

Given the wild variance in the maturity exhibited by adult black belts of varying arts, I don't view maturity, leadership or responsibility as being anywhere near a universal requirement across arts. Some of those most vociferous about this on MT spew the most vitriolic and hateful posts using the language of a middle schooler while claiming to hold instructor level (fourth dan +) grades. Also, many who insist on maturity and leadership in a black belt generally are fine with eighteen year olds receiving them. Eighteen - twenty two year olds are not generally known for their maturity.

In fact, this is the age of reveling in greater freedom and engaging in all manner of irresponsible behavior before settling into a more adult role. It is the time of making mistakes and learning from them first hand as a legal adult. I've seen a lot of kids who are actually very mature between twelve and fifteen who seem to regress between sixteen and twenty, but begin to pull it back together in their early twenties. This is because the maturity that they had from twelve to fifteen was partly imposed upon them by their parents and teachers. In their mid teens, kids frequently start pulling away from authority figures and try to establish identities of their own. They begin to question authority more, and it usually takes them into their mid twenties before they have a maturity that is truly their own.

High school athletes (this includes MA students) can put on an air of maturity, and in the context of their given sport, be the comparatively mature leader that we associate with a black belt. But once off of the field or out of the studio, they usually go back to being high school kids. Which is what they're supposed to be doing.

Once they mature, they may stick with a martial art or a sport and develop true maturity both in the studio and out. Most kids in MA programs do what most other high school students do: go to college, the armed forces, or into a trade and stop practicing the art. A few will come back to it later in life, but for most, their time in the arts is looked back on fondly but is a part of their youth and unlikely to be revisited. Only a very, very small percentage will actually stick with an art from childhood through college and become a lifetime practitioner.

So when the insistence on a black belt somehow meaning "more than physical skills" is made, I think people are thinking more in the ideal than the actual. It may be true in some schools, and perhaps in yours. But I caution against applying such a standard across all arts, schools and practitioners.

 

[msmitht]

The requirements clearly state that 4th poom is possible by 15. If you are 3rd dan at 15 you may not test until you are 21 for 4th. A fourth poom may convert to dan at age 21 but not test til age 25 for 5th Dan.
Look at the age/time chart for poom/dam requirements on kkw website.
I learned this at all three FIC i have attended. One in Korea , two in the US. Have chart in course handbook. I am right.

 

[msmitht]

Not how I read it and not how it has been explained to me! I am open to change my mind? Please provide your source...

If it is the case I fine with that! Just not how I read it...

BTW it is 4th Dan by 18 if you are a 3rd poom before 13....I could be wrong!!!!

It was explained to you incorrectly or you misinterpreted. Check kkw website. You mist be 21 to reach 4th dan or to have 4th pokm converted. I am right on this one. Checked with Kkw, Usat and my FIC book.

 

[Gorilla]

It was explained to you incorrectly or you misinterpreted. Check kkw website. You mist be 21 to reach 4th dan or to have 4th pokm converted. I am right on this one. Checked with Kkw, Usat and my FIC book.

Reread section 8 again...can't say I agree but I defer!

 

[WaterGal]

For contrast, I'll point out several "Black Belts" I've seen come to our Moo Duk Kwan school from others. Specifically, I'll mention one who came from a TKD school in Chicago. He was 12 or 13, and had been a 1st Dan for about a year. Our required forms are palgwae but a couple of us do train the taegeuks as well. He didn't know what forms he had learned. I asked him to show me one and he got about half way through taegeuk 1. He couldn't throw a proper punch. He didn't know the difference between a front stance and a back stance. He couldn't throw any kick other than a front snap kick with anything resembling proper technique. He sparred one our 9 or 10 year old yellow belts and quit after 30 seconds because it hurt (our lower belts do NOT spar with heavy contact, either).

This kid is far more the norm for "black belts" at his age, and based on him, I would consider the school that awarded him his rank a McDojang.

That's the norm for kids who went to "black belt mill" schools with bad training and no standards, sure. But not for kids that studied somewhere decent.

In my experience, you can teach any reasonably dedicated 10-year old (in decent health, with no disability) to bust out all 8 Taegeuk forms accurately and with enough power to make their sleeve "pop", do some tolerable medium-contact sparring against opponents their size, and do some decent jump spin kicks.

I don't even know how they fill up 2-3 years of training if they're not teaching those things. What do they do all class? Play dodgeball?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How intensely though can a five year old train? or a seven year old etc? Eighteen year olds yes of course, we have any number of athletes in many sports that train intensely but children?

Most schools that conform to the "McDojo" model have a tiny tigers/little dragons/little ninjas program, which is what five year olds are generally in. Personally, I feel taht those programs should have specific belts and patches that recognize the child's achievement without mixing it with the regular program. Personally, I don't care if a five year old has a black belt.

Five years ago, I did, but at this point, I simply am willing to accept that school owners will make unsound decisions and that those decisions are theirs to live with. Getting upset about is simply inducing stress in one's self while such school owners continue to do what they do regardless of our feelings.

 

[Rumy73]

Most schools that conform to the "McDojo" model have a tiny tigers/little dragons/little ninjas program, which is what five year olds are generally in. Personally, I feel taht those programs should have specific belts and patches that recognize the child's achievement without mixing it with the regular program. Personally, I don't care if a five year old has a black belt.

Five years ago, I did, but at this point, I simply am willing to accept that school owners will make unsound decisions and that those decisions are theirs to live with. Getting upset about is simply inducing stress in one's self while such school owners continue to do what they do regardless of our feelings.

Good point. Personally, I do not get mad; although, I have a dislike for it philosophically.

 

[andyjeffries]

Most schools that conform to the "McDojo" model have a tiny tigers/little dragons/little ninjas program, which is what five year olds are generally in. Personally, I feel taht those programs should have specific belts and patches that recognize the child's achievement without mixing it with the regular program.

I'm a bit lost as to whether you think that clubs that have these programmes are McDojo or not.

I wouldn't consider our club a McDojo (then again, would someone who everyone else considers to be running a McDojo recognise it? Hmm, that's gonna fester), but we have a class for 3-6 year olds. They do get different tags/stripes/belts to the main children class and adults and they don't get Kup certificates.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Good point. Personally, I do not get mad; although, I have a dislike for it philosophically.

As do I. One of the issues is that many schools provide a martial arts themed family/childrens activity. Putting aside the belt issue, positive things are had in such programs. Members are enjoying an activity that promotes cardio health, muscle tone, and flexibility, and kids are in an environment that stresses respect and good manners, as well as building confidence, self esteem, and the many non-martial benefits that such schools often highlight in their literature.

If it were not for the ingrained concept (and indeed, sometimes irrational attachment that people have to it) of a black belt representing Liam Neeson's character in the Taken films, I wouldn't care about black belts on five year olds either. But in the US, it sends mixed signals.

 

[dancingalone]

As do I. One of the issues is that many schools provide a martial arts themed family/childrens activity. Putting aside the belt issue, positive things are had in such programs. Members are enjoying an activity that promotes cardio health, muscle tone, and flexibility, and kids are in an environment that stresses respect and good manners, as well as building confidence, self esteem, and the many non-martial benefits that such schools often highlight in their literature.

If it were not for the ingrained concept (and indeed, sometimes irrational attachment that people have to it) of a black belt representing Liam Neeson's character in the Taken films, I wouldn't care about black belts on five year olds either. But in the US, it sends mixed signals.

I have a explanatory flyer that I will perhaps share here when I am content with it that I include in our new student packet. It sets forth our position on what a black belt means within our school and offers a few other commonly held ideas across arts and nations to give further perspective to the subject.

I like the poom belt and I also like streamlined curricula for children. I also think it's a good idea to openly differentiate what the kids and adults learn and practice if your school offers that.

 

[Gorilla]

I have gone to 2 tournaments in the last 2 weeks probably 2000 athletes. The reputation of the art seems to be holding up!

 

[StudentCarl]

In KKW taekwondo, a first dan/pum represents completing the beginner's course. In Korea, it takes one year to get to first dan/pum.

Given the wild variance in the maturity exhibited by adult black belts of varying arts, I don't view maturity, leadership or responsibility as being anywhere near a universal requirement across arts. Some of those most vociferous about this on MT spew the most vitriolic and hateful posts using the language of a middle schooler while claiming to hold instructor level (fourth dan +) grades. Also, many who insist on maturity and leadership in a black belt generally are fine with eighteen year olds receiving them. Eighteen - twenty two year olds are not generally known for their maturity.

In fact, this is the age of reveling in greater freedom and engaging in all manner of irresponsible behavior before settling into a more adult role. It is the time of making mistakes and learning from them first hand as a legal adult. I've seen a lot of kids who are actually very mature between twelve and fifteen who seem to regress between sixteen and twenty, but begin to pull it back together in their early twenties. This is because the maturity that they had from twelve to fifteen was partly imposed upon them by their parents and teachers. In their mid teens, kids frequently start pulling away from authority figures and try to establish identities of their own. They begin to question authority more, and it usually takes them into their mid twenties before they have a maturity that is truly their own.

High school athletes (this includes MA students) can put on an air of maturity, and in the context of their given sport, be the comparatively mature leader that we associate with a black belt. But once off of the field or out of the studio, they usually go back to being high school kids. Which is what they're supposed to be doing.

Once they mature, they may stick with a martial art or a sport and develop true maturity both in the studio and out. Most kids in MA programs do what most other high school students do: go to college, the armed forces, or into a trade and stop practicing the art. A few will come back to it later in life, but for most, their time in the arts is looked back on fondly but is a part of their youth and unlikely to be revisited. Only a very, very small percentage will actually stick with an art from childhood through college and become a lifetime practitioner.

So when the insistence on a black belt somehow meaning "more than physical skills" is made, I think people are thinking more in the ideal than the actual. It may be true in some schools, and perhaps in yours. But I caution against applying such a standard across all arts, schools and practitioners.

QFT!


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