Taekwondo curriculum content and teaching methodology

[dancingalone]

I would say let them keep it. But when they want to promote to 2nd poom, they need to wear a poom belt or be stuck on their current rank. That way it's clearly stated to them that going to a poom belt isn't a demotion, it can be a promotion, it depends on the rank. Also, tell them that it's standard in Korea, the home of their art, and that all under 15s in Korea wear poom belts.

Say they can keep their black belts (you aren't taking them away), but if they want to test again, they need to wear a poom belt after that point. It's better to be an internationally certified 2nd Poom (and be standing in a more senior place in the class) than to keep their club 1st Dan dojang black belt.

Just my thoughts, but I think it's all in the phrasing.

You know, Andy, that's a great idea. I should clarify however that while I support the idea of a poom belt, I'm not fully convinced that I like the KKW poom program in its entirely including how they later convert to full dans. The way the school works now, kids as young as 10 can promote to 1st dan. However, they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16 which I think matches KKW requirements, though I'd have to check for sure. I'm somewhat inclined to keep the same eligibility structure and not have any 2nd or 3rd poom at all, so we don't run into the need for conversions as they grow older.

 

[dancingalone]

Is the current policy an two tiered system where you have junior black belts who later shift to an adult class and then test for a "real black belt" and KKW cert?

Right now kids and adults have the same curriculum. I could see this changing sooner or later, so I do support the poom belt as a means of distinguishing between the two groups.

For that same reason, I'm not necessarily on-board with the KKW poom program as I understand they can be converted into full dan ranks merely upon reaching the proper age, without any re-certification needed in a more difficult program.

I understand the KKW requirements are minimal compared to what I plan eventually to require. Regardless I don't want to maintain two sets of dans, one KKW and one not. I'd rather award our own black belts, and if the students want, they can also elect to receive the KKW cert in addition to, not in lieu of.

 

[andyjeffries]

The only real problem is that the current grades are in house. So there is no 'second pum' for them because they haven't ever been registered as a first pum.

Also, there may be some second or third degree Jr. BBs. Perhaps the KKW has a skip pum option for this situation?

As far as I know you could put in for a skip poom, but I don't think you can skip more than one grade.

So you could convert dojang 1st Dans to KKW 2nd Poom, but not dojang 2nd Dans. However as dancing along says, they only allow 2nd Dan at 16, so there's no issue there (except that they may be dojang 2nd Dans or above and still be in need of a large jump).

I did read in Article 18 of the KKW regulations that it's not a skip dan if it's a dan assimilation (i.e. changing from a dojang dan under a reputable master/association to Kukkiwon) but I don't know if the same "1 rank jump" applies there.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You know, Andy, that's a great idea. I should clarify however that while I support the idea of a poom belt, I'm not fully convinced that I like the KKW poom program in its entirely including how they later convert to full dans. The way the school works now, kids as young as 10 can promote to 1st dan. However, they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16 which I think matches KKW requirements, though I'd have to check for sure. I'm somewhat inclined to keep the same eligibility structure and not have any 2nd or 3rd poom at all, so we don't run into the need for conversions as they grow older.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that when a pum converts, they convert at age 15 to whatever pum they were from first to third (I know that there is a fourth pum, but I think that the student has to be older than fifteen to earn it).

Either way, there's always going to be some element of child promotions that is less than ideal. Ten year old first dans bugs the tar out of some people, but those same people don't like the conversion at age fifteen either.

The way that I look at it is that if a kid gets his first pum at ten, that means that he or she has been at it since like seven or eight. If they stick around long enough for pum conversion to matter, then you're looking at seven or eight years of commitment from a kid. Kids commiting to anything that long are usually serious and I think that the conversion is more than appropriate.

If you issue a single black belt with only the school name and student's name, then you have pum belts and black belts and the whole issue of who's what rank at what age is nullified. What really matters is that the student is continuing to train. And hey, by the time they're eighteen, their black belt will start to get frayed on the edges and have that, 'I've been doing this for years' look about it that many consider badge of honor. Chances are, he or she is an awesome taekwondoin by that point as well. Everyone wins.

 

[dancingalone]

I did read in Article 18 of the KKW regulations that it's not a skip dan if it's a dan assimilation (i.e. changing from a dojang dan under a reputable master/association to Kukkiwon) but I don't know if the same "1 rank jump" applies there.

That's my understanding. I'm preparing for a 3rd dan test, having never held any KKW rank before.

 

[andyjeffries]

You know, Andy, that's a great idea. I should clarify however that while I support the idea of a poom belt, I'm not fully convinced that I like the KKW poom program in its entirely including how they later convert to full dans.

I don't know if individuals can apply to the Kukkiwon for poom-dan conversion or if it has to be 4th Dan or above. If it does have to be, then you can still have an additional test for it (not sure I agree with doing that as it's a paperwork only thing at KKW, but I'm not judging if you want to).

The way the school works now, kids as young as 10 can promote to 1st dan. However, they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16 which I think matches KKW requirements, though I'd have to check for sure.

16 years old is the minimum for KKW 2nd Dan, but they could be KKW 3rd Dan at any age.

I'm somewhat inclined to keep the same eligibility structure and not have any 2nd or 3rd poom at all, so we don't run into the need for conversions as they grow older.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the conversion aspect. And I potentially wouldn't set it in stone now, wait until the situation comes up and then decide. If you have a student worthy of higher rank than 1st and they're younger than 16 maybe you'll change your mind. The reason is that once you publicise the decision you're stuck with it (as you're finding with your under-16 black belts).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Right now kids and adults have the same curriculum. I could see this changing sooner or later, so I do support the poom belt as a means of distinguishing between the two groups.

Personally, I think that that is good.

But under the current program, are adults getting a KKW dan cert? And how are they handling kids who stick around long enough to transition from child to adult, but are higher than first dan?

 

[dancingalone]

But under the current program, are adults getting a KKW dan cert? And how are they handling kids who stick around long enough to transition from child to adult, but are higher than first dan?

There is no problem currently with moving kids to the adults class when they get big enough because the curriculum is still the same for adults and children. Additionally, the 16 minimum age for 2nd dan keeps it nicely aligned already with KKW minimum ages. I'm more thinking about the potential pitfalls for later when I will introduce changes in the curriculum - I don't want to run into situations where pooms convert to full dans without having learned the same material my adult students did.

Right now everyone gets the same house certificate. Adults wanting the additional KKW certificate can obtain it. I believe it's about half-and-half who do. For the record, I would have no personal issues if all did.

My antipathy towards the KKW poom cert has to do with it's ability to convert later on to a full dan, although certainly I recognize Daniel's excellent arguments above about it being more about training.

 

[ETinCYQX]

What type of sword is used and what is the nature of the kata? Is it drawing and cutting or lenthier patterns performed on one's own or is it two person kata (kumitachi)?

Longer patterns, solo. It's essentially just demonstration stuff that we use for special events, public gradings, etc., no real thought behind it. I guess the sword is most like a katana but it's essentially just whatever instructors happen to have around. I don't know it so I don't teach it.

Like this.

 

[Tez3]

We often have children coming to us with TKD belts, I don't know how TKDists feel about this but we let them keep their belts and grade onwards from that point with us after they've adapted to TSD and Judo, which is easy enough for the children, they spend a lot of their time doing this with schools, clubs etc anyway. After they've left us we often hear they've had to go back to white belt at their new clubs of whichever style is available, which while I understand it seems a shame. Whatever belt or background they've come from before they get to us we try to keep something they can recognise, likewise we tend to teach in Japanese, Korean and English, as in counting, and instructions etc.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm more thinking about the potential pitfalls for later when I will introduce changes in the curriculum - I don't want to run into situations where pooms convert to full dans without having learned the same material my adult students did.
.....

My antipathy towards the KKW poom cert has to do with it's ability to convert later on to a full dan, although certainly I recognize Daniel's excellent arguments above about it being more about training.

Conversion isn't automatic; there is paperwork to be filed by the instructor. Also, no pum should be given if the school's requirements have not yet been met. The awarding of pums should be no different in that regard than the awarding of dan grades.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Longer patterns, solo. It's essentially just demonstration stuff that we use for special events, public gradings, etc., no real thought behind it. I guess the sword is most like a katana but it's essentially just whatever instructors happen to have around. I don't know it so I don't teach it.

Like this.

Looks like a katana to me.

Solo sword forms are pretty cool in my opinion.

A nice way to teach stance and movement along with varying cuts, and for some that format works much better for practice outside of class than say, do 50 shomen uchi, 50 migi/hidari men uchi, 50 migi/hidari do uchi, and the following suburi 20 times each every day. Do this patern ten times a day that has all of the material that I want you to practice works very nicely.

 

[puunui]

We teach traditional Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do as well as Kukki Taekwondo. Certified through Kukkiwon and the United States Taekwondo Association through the guidance of GM Richard Chun

What do you mean when you say "traditional Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do"?

 

[puunui]

It is probably too short. I'm used to running 1.5-2 hour classes in my home karate dojo, and we definitely had a much longer warm up.

Did you find any issues with children being able to maintain their concentration for the full 1.5-2 hour class?

 

[dancingalone]

Did you find any issues with children being able to maintain their concentration for the full 1.5-2 hour class?

I do not know. I have never taken a child as a student at my home dojo. It's not exactly kid friendly with the expected things like hojo undo and emphasis on esoteric Okinawan technique.

 

[puunui]

You could announce that you will be shifting from in house certs to KKW pum certs and that in order to conform to KKW regulations, you will be issuing the pum belts with the official certificate. Make the announcement well in advance of the next dan testing.

Pum is more accurately spelled "poom". That is how it is spelled on the kukkiwon certificates. Closer to the phonetic pronunciation as well. It is not so much of a problem with pum, but many mispronounce guep, especially when it is spelled "gup". Guep does not rhyme with cup, but it does sort of rhyme with coop, like a chicken coop. Many call color belt students "guppies", which is based on the incorrect pronouciation of guep, because of the gup spelling.

 

[puunui]

You know, Andy, that's a great idea. I should clarify however that while I support the idea of a poom belt, I'm not fully convinced that I like the KKW poom program in its entirely including how they later convert to full dans.

Personally, I would eliminate the poom rank at the Kukkiwon and award dan rank to everyone, regardless of age. There is no effective distinction between a poom rank and a dan rank, especially since a poom rank can be converted to a dan rank once the student reaches a certain age. Because of that, any distinction between a poom rank and a dan rank is meaningless.

The way the school works now, kids as young as 10 can promote to 1st dan. However, they aren't eligible to test for 2nd dan until age 16 which I think matches KKW requirements, though I'd have to check for sure. I'm somewhat inclined to keep the same eligibility structure and not have any 2nd or 3rd poom at all, so we don't run into the need for conversions as they grow older.

How long does it take an average student who doesn't miss a test to get to 1st dan? Limiting "black belt" ranks to an arbitrary age also limits potential students from joining. This may not be a concern when you have a non-commercial dojang, but may be a concern for a commercial one. The trend is for younger and younger age students to start training, so if you limit your age of student or age of 1st dan, then you may lose a whole group of students from joining. And, if you have competitors who do accept younger students and promote students to black belt irregardless of age, then you may be cutting off the majority of your potential students. Perhaps this is one reason why you were sold the school in the first place, because self imposed limitations on potential students made the dojang unprofitable.

Something to consider. I can see where these things may cause you some internal conflicts, where philosophical belief is in direct contrast to practical reality. You want to institute all these changes and do things your way, but then when you are in the driver's seat, you slowly understand or at least can appreciate why your instructor did certain things. These are the lessons to be learned by new school owners, as outlined in the poomsae pyongwon, usually learned at 4th Dan. When you work out all these things for yourself, that's when you will be ready for 5th Dan promotion. At least to me.

 

[puunui]

Right now kids and adults have the same curriculum. I could see this changing sooner or later, so I do support the poom belt as a means of distinguishing between the two groups.

What is the current ratio between children and adult students in your dojang, "adult" meaning 13 and older?

 

[puunui]

Right now everyone gets the same house certificate. Adults wanting the additional KKW certificate can obtain it. I believe it's about half-and-half who do. For the record, I would have no personal issues if all did.

Why not do it the other way around, give everyone a kukkiwon certificate and then a house certificate if the student wishes it? That is what they do in Korea, give everyone a kukkiwon certificate, and then a house or "kwan" certificate if they want it. To me that makes more sense, especially since so many instructors push the idea of a house certificate being more "meaningful" and more "valuable", since it is signed by the instructor. That way, you give the less desirable and less meaningful kukkiwon certificate as the default certification, and then they can pay extra if they want the more meaningful house one.

 

[dancingalone]

Adults = 16+

The ratio is around 3:1 kids to adults, which I actually think is quite good with little need for modifying marketing or policies in to try to 'equalize' the population base.

Why not do it the other way around, give everyone a kukkiwon certificate and then a house certificate if the student wishes it? That is what they do in Korea, given everyone a kukkiwon certificate, and then a house or "kwan" certificate if they want it.

It's more record-keeping that way. I'd rather make sure the students pass our requirements and be eligible for both certs than keep tract of 'John has the KKW reqs but not our house ones'.

It's also a small cost issue. The students can save a few bucks by passing up the Korean cert, although certainly they're told it may be a good thing to have later on if they want to continue in TKD and possibly grow a career/lifelong pursuit of it.