Man vs. Beast

[Kane]

silliness...

humans are weak...anyone that has studied martial arts knows how weakly the body is constructed...(too many pressure points, joints to break, ways to choke, teeth are worthless, slow as heck...etc...)

humans only advantage in the wild is invention and creativity

Joints to Break? Pressure Points? Ways to choke?

First of all, all mammals have the same basic joints and pressure points.

Second, what makes you think an animal will go after pressure points or joints? I never knew animals had a smart enough brain to go after these parts. Animals can choke too? The only choking I've seen any animal do is a neck bite.

Our bodies haven’t been necessarily "weakly" constructed. It all depends on the man's lifestyle. There are skinny humans, fat humans, muscular humans, super buff humans, ect. Now would a standard couch potato have a chance against a animal like a puma who is always on the prowl? No! How about a man that lives more outdoor wild lifestyle? Or how about Martial Artists who knows how to fight? Don't forget about those people that left weight religiously. It depends on the individual.

By the way, did you guys know the greatest human bite force ever achieved was at 950 pounds of force? That is almost as high as a lion's or tiger's bite. That is nearly 5 times more than the average human (average human 200 pounds of force). It is also more than 3 times that of a cougar and almost twice the bite force of a leopard. No animals can ever reach the extremeness of human records. So what's my point?

The man obviously used a special technique to increase his bite force. How did he do it? He used his brain and thought of the way. That is our greatest weapon, our minds. If a man can increase his strength by 5 without doing any exercise (not sure whether you can exercise your jaw muscles) do you think finding a way to beat a puma or leopard bare-handed is that far away if someone really thought about it? I don't think it is impossible for a man to defend himself against wild predators. However, right now it's less than likely. Remember though, nothing is impossible.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Semi-related note - anyone read The Book of Merlyn by T.H. White? In part of it, one of the animals is telling Wart/King Arthur the story of how the species were created. They were all gathered in their embryonic states, all potential. Each one asked for something really special - big claws, armored back, etc. When Man was given a chance, he asked to remain an embryo - he uses his mind to survive.

Compared to other species, our brains, our social systems, and our language are what we compete with.

I'm kind of amused by the idea of "could I take a ________ " - there is always a way, especially if the person gets to be armed. But animals aren't stupid, and they don't *want* to attack - most of their energy is focused on just staying alive. Unless you're a meal, of course.
And about that cougar attack - most cougar hunts on film I've seen, the cougar grabs or trips with their paws first, buffeting and clawing before the bite goes in. Anyone who messes with a cougar must get pretty torn up, and would definetly need to see a doctor!

 

[bignick]

my point wasn't that a bear was going to grab you and throw you to the ground and slap on an armbar or a rear choke...the point was that it's a bit of an awkward design...we train to compensate for this...

No animals can ever reach the extremeness of human records.

Again, with biting, our teeth are pretty ineffective at biting and tearing when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom

also, we are talking about the extreme high range of human's here...and comparing it to the average of the animals...you can't excersize jaw muscles and biting strenth is more of a matter of leverage than muscles...i bet you could find a lot of animals that have extremely strong bites compared to the average for their species

how fast can humans run, how far can they jump or even fly?...let's not even start with animals that have specialized defenses like poison...

the point is that any normal human, caugt unprepared and alone by an animal has very slim chances of survival if that animal decides he's food...it's a different situation if the animal is just trying to scare us away from their territory...

humans are social creatures and we work best in groups with a strategy...like people have been saying...the mind is our greatest strength...

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Dosha is a 10-month old mixed breed puppy who wandered away from its owners home in Clearwater, California on April 15th. Saddly, Dosha was hit by a passing car. To put the poor puppy out of of her suffering a police officer at the scene shot dosha in the head with his pistol. The puppy was then transported to an animal control center where she was placed in a plastic bag in the cadaver freezer. Reuturs and The Associated Press report that two hours later, a veterinarian opened the door to the freezer to find Dosha standing up inside the plastic bag, which is the equivalent of a human body bag. Talk about a surprise!!

Young of most species - for instance, young mammals - often have ways of surviving events that would kill an adult of the same species. I know that when an animal has to be euthanized, for example by CO2 asphyxiation, a young mammal must be kept in the CO2 longer than an adult. If you remove a young animal from CO2 too early (ex.: less than 30 minutes), they can start breathing again. Young mammals can withstand hypoxic (low O2) conditions, cold conditions, etc., better than adults can.

OK, that's it for me geeking it up for now.

 

[Shurikan]

There are other ways to win besides fighting, with cats you just need to stand tall and be loud they will most likely run, I would not want to be in a cage with one and just fight. Although i do not believe a man would not have a chance I do believe it would not be a good chance the one they do have.

And as for breaking the legs of an animal just because it is smaller boned then a human it is much more agile good luck trying to get a kick to its leg and breaking it.

I am from Montana lots of wildlife you are taught ways to defend yourself from animials, but none of those ways include fighting them.

 

[DeLamar.J]

It is true actually deponding on the animal. Primates (including humans) are several times stronger than animals around the same weight. And if you notice, for eample dogs arms are more brittle and can't flex as much (like do the splits).

Also, did you guys know that a boxer punch is more powerful than an average tiger or lion bite? Tiger or lions can have 1,000 pounds bite pressure but a boxer's punch can be 1,500-2,500 pounds of pressure. I'm not saying and unarmed human can beat a lion or tiger because they are way too big and strong, but against a smaller weaker animal like a wolf or a cougar I think it is possible if we can avoid the sharp teeth and get around and some how get the throat (which will instantly kill any beast) or keep punching it in the back of the head (which would knock any beast out).

When your talking about a bite vs a punch, think pounds per square inch. I bet it wouldnt take but 20 pounds of pressure to drive a knife through your body. And the best way to beat a animal is by using psycology.

 

[Ippon Ken]

Not lions, tigers, and bears (oh my). I know they are way too strong. I'm talking about wolves or cougars or dogs. They may have claws and teeth, but the stragety is to avoid the teeth and the claws and get around the beast.

I know chimpanzes are several time stronger than a human, but again i said APES are stronger than other organisms their size. I didn't mean we are the strongest ape (which we are the weakest). And when it comes to a chimpanzee fight. Martial Arts would be effective considering there bodies are 90% similar to ours no matter how strong he is (Having a lot of strenght does gaurantee you a win). And also remeber that is arm strenght. Are legs are equally as strong as a chimp's arms. We can't lift heavy loads with them like chimps with there arms because we can't grasp with our feet and you need grasping power to lift things and it's our legs so it is harder to lift thing lying down.

Okay, super savant. A cougar, pound for pound, is the strongest of the big cats. At about 120 pounds they can break an Elk's neck with one swipe of the claw. An elk is as big as a cow. Can you do that superdude? On top of that their backbones are like steel springs. Their flexibility is unbelievable. They can jump over 20 feet forward from a standstill. Get real, man, and pick up some books or something. That's why they kill men and women in So-Cal. If they all wanted to attack, especially a big adult, people without guns would be dead meat. Literally.

A Great Dane if it decided to go all out would eat you alive. Dogs are super resilient and strong. At least 5 times as strong as a 200 pound man for their size. Alaskan Malamutes can easily pull one ton of dead weight without rollers or wheels. Great Danes are even bigger. So can you do that? Dogs have had all their aggressive wolf instincts bred out of them (most dogs). On top of that they still instictively follow the hierarchy of a pack. You are the alpha male because you're the primary hunter, disciplinarian and provider. He will always "play" fight with you and probably never attack you because you're his master. It's called "submissive behavior". Be glad that he likes you!

Against most good sized predatory mammals any man, even the strongest and toughest ones would never ever stand a chance. Yes there have been instances where a man or woman has gotten the back of a smaller dog, like a pitbull, and choked them out. That was luck and life-or-death versus a small tame wolf. A real wolf or really big dog would kill or severely maim you.

You must be trolling or you're under 16 years old.

 

[Blindside]

Okay, super savant. A cougar, pound for pound, is the strongest of the big cats. At about 120 pounds they can break an Elk's neck with one swipe of the claw. An elk is as big as a cow.

Actually, it is the bite that does most of the killing. On larger prey (elk, moose calves) the throat is bitten and the prey item is suffocated, on smaller prey (deer) the spine is broken from the bite.

Lamont

 

[Kane]

my point wasn't that a bear was going to grab you and throw you to the ground and slap on an armbar or a rear choke...the point was that it's a bit of an awkward design...we train to compensate for this...


Again, with biting, our teeth are pretty ineffective at biting and tearing when compared to the rest of the animal kingdom

also, we are talking about the extreme high range of human's here...and comparing it to the average of the animals...you can't excersize jaw muscles and biting strenth is more of a matter of leverage than muscles...i bet you could find a lot of animals that have extremely strong bites compared to the average for their species

how fast can humans run, how far can they jump or even fly?...let's not even start with animals that have specialized defenses like poison...

the point is that any normal human, caugt unprepared and alone by an animal has very slim chances of survival if that animal decides he's food...it's a different situation if the animal is just trying to scare us away from their territory...

humans are social creatures and we work best in groups with a strategy...like people have been saying...the mind is our greatest strength...

You shouldn't say in general we would loose to animals. Which animals are you talking about? A cougar, leopard, or jaguar would be too much for a normal man. An animal like a wolf or cheetah would not and a courageous man does have a good chance against these animals.



Also, being social doesn't necessarily mean you are weak. Lions are social creatures. Are they weak just because they hunt as a pack? Being social is doesn't have much to do with it.

 

[Kane]

Ippon Ken,

Pound for pound, jaguars are the strongest of the cats. Leopards are even stronger than cougars. There have been documented cases in South America of tribes-people who have actually best a jaguar by strangulation.

Great Danes would not be able to take down a man because these dogs are gentle giants. Alaskan Malamutes can pull large weight as a PACK. A Pit Bull is too small to kill a man (as little as 40 pounds) despite their abilities. A mastiff however can kill a man. No dogs are NOT 5 times as strong as a man. Infact dogs are a little weaker. However, as far as resilience, you are right dogs are much more resilient. Dogs can handle much more pain in many ways humans can't.

Anyway, my point is that is seems you are giving too much credit to other animals and not enough for humans. Nothing is impossible bro. If you practice of Martial Arts you should know this.


Cobra,

I know where you are getting at. I agree too that humans ARE NOT helpless and weak against animals. However, it seems you were getting too into this and debate and now everyone thinks you are not legit. Calm down, have a beer or something.

Why don't you tell me your name and I'll look through the internet for your story of killing a cougar. I'm sure it's somewhere. The internet has everything!

If you were joking about it's best you tell everyone the truth.

 

[bignick]

Which animals are you talking about?

Pretty much all of them...at least most large mammalian species...these animals have three motives in life...eat, sleep, propagate...that's all they do...not such a bad life, if you like the outdoors. How do they eat, they kill their food, the predators at least. They "train" in real life-and-death situations 24/7. Not only that, but the endurance animals have, they don't sit on the couch and watch tv a couple hours a day....

Let's face it...your chances against any good sized predator that decides your lunch are slim to none...

Also, being social doesn't necessarily mean you are weak. Lions are social creatures. Are they weak just because they hunt as a pack? Being social is doesn't have much to do with it.

wolves, ants, bees, dogs, and numerous other creatures are social...and yes..a single lion or wolf on their own in the wilderness has very little chance of survival...

everybody like's the analogy of being the "lone wolf", it's cool, mysterious...but in the wild...there is a reason the wolf is by itself there's something wrong with it...and it usually dies

 

[Kane]

[/color]
Pretty much all of them...at least most large mammalian species...these animals have three motives in life...eat, sleep, propagate...that's all they do...not such a bad life, if you like the outdoors. How do they eat, they kill their food, the predators at least. They "train" in real life-and-death situations 24/7. Not only that, but the endurance animals have, they don't sit on the couch and watch tv a couple hours a day....

Let's face it...your chances against any good sized predator that decides your lunch are slim to none...


wolves, ants, bees, dogs, and numerous other creatures are social...and yes..a single lion or wolf on their own in the wilderness has very little chance of survival...

everybody like's the analogy of being the "lone wolf", it's cool, mysterious...but in the wild...there is a reason the wolf is by itself there's something wrong with it...and it usually dies

Again, it depends on your lifesyle. I'm not saying a man who sits in a office building all day or a couch potato has a big chance. I'm talking about a physical fit man. Like a navy seal or outdoors man.

Also, male lions actually do get along pretty good alone in the while. Of course their life is harder than being in a pride, but it doesn't mean they are helpless on their own. Cheers!

 

[Ippon Ken]

Ippon Ken,

Pound for pound, jaguars are the strongest of the cats. Leopards are even stronger than cougars. There have been documented cases in South America of tribes-people who have actually best a jaguar by strangulation.

Great Danes would not be able to take down a man because these dogs are gentle giants. Alaskan Malamutes can pull large weight as a PACK. A Pit Bull is too small to kill a man (as little as 40 pounds) despite their abilities. A mastiff however can kill a man. No dogs are NOT 5 times as strong as a man. Infact dogs are a little weaker. However, as far as resilience, you are right dogs are much more resilient. Dogs can handle much more pain in many ways humans can't.

Anyway, my point is that is seems you are giving too much credit to other animals and not enough for humans. Nothing is impossible bro. If you practice of Martial Arts you should know this.


Cobra,

I know where you are getting at. I agree too that humans ARE NOT helpless and weak against animals. However, it seems you were getting too into this and debate and now everyone thinks you are not legit. Calm down, have a beer or something.

Why don't you tell me your name and I'll look through the internet for your story of killing a cougar. I'm sure it's somewhere. The internet has everything!

If you were joking about it's best you tell everyone the truth.

Pumas are stronger pound for pound than jaguars and leopards. They are strong enough to snap an Elk's neck, whether they do this as their primary killing tactic or not. Most animals are stronger pound for pound than humans. Especially most of the weaklings now living and thriving in America.

Yes Malamutes are pack/draft animals, but one 150 pound Malamute can pull over 1 ton.

A rabid Great Dane would kill your a$$!

Anyway what up with all the "What Ifs"? This ain't Marvel Comics.

I do real MAs. I can fight. I don't want to face a mad predator over 35 pounds because sharp teeth are good fighting implements. Go tangle with a Honey Badger or Wolverine tough guy.

Are you under 16?

Uh-huh...

 

[Bod]

Kane Animals can choke too? The only choking I've seen any animal do is a neck bite.

I saw on TV that one lioness in a pride speciallised in grabbing wildebeast by their muzzle (i.e. across mouth and nostrils), which had the effect of suffocating them. Not standard technique as far as lions go, but it worked and was safer than getting caught up in the hooves or fallen on.

I think the most important thing about the way animals fight is that they try to avoid all type of injury, because those small injuries could kill the animal. Think about it, if your only way of getting food was by fighting you'd fight very cautiously.That is why their kill rates are generally very low (I think lions have about 20%, I should look it up).

The exceptions are humans, who do not fight to eat and have medicine, and African wild dogs, a species which actually is closer to a little hyena. African wild dogs have a 95% kill rate on hunting expeditions. Why? They tend to their sick, making sure that even the injured get food, so even a broken or amputated leg is survivable for one of these creatures.

 

[OULobo]

Pumas are stronger pound for pound than jaguars and leopards. They are strong enough to snap an Elk's neck, whether they do this as their primary killing tactic or not. Most animals are stronger pound for pound than humans. Especially most of the weaklings now living and thriving in America.

Yes Malamutes are pack/draft animals, but one 150 pound Malamute can pull over 1 ton.

A rabid Great Dane would kill your a$$!

Anyway what up with all the "What Ifs"? This ain't Marvel Comics.

I do real MAs. I can fight. I don't want to face a mad predator over 35 pounds because sharp teeth are good fighting implements. Go tangle with a Honey Badger or Wolverine tough guy.

Are you under 16?

Uh-huh...

Technically, almost anyone can snap an elk's neck. The amount of pressure to break most bones is minimal if applied in the right place and at the right angle. As such the ability to "break an elk's neck" is not a very valid measure of strength. Leopards are indeed stronger, by size ratio, evidenced by thier propensity to physically drag all their prey into trees for safety and retention. As for animals being "stronger pound for pound"; what is your measure of strength. In comparison, healthy human legs are stronger in size to strength ratio than most animals.

"A rabid Great Dane". Now that is a classic. How bout a skunk on PCP? or a super mutated ferret on absinth? Now who is reading too many comics. Most animals infected with rabies don't exhibit aggressive behavior.

If you can't handle a 35 lb anything , you need to train a little more. I can't think of anything at 35 lbs more scary or damaging than a POed ferral cat, and I have caught and handled one (albeit not with ease)with minimal protection.

 

[lonecoyote]

Watch out for those skunks on PCP! Raccoons on steroids! LOL Meanest animal pound for pound is the chihuahua. My uncle had some. Intense, fearless, mean, so mad they would shake with bad intentions before they bit. If they were as big as a Shetland Pony no man or beast that walks the earth would be safe. Actually, with most animals, stay calm, stand your ground (fleeing sets them off) and fill your hand with something. That opposable thumb makes me a tool using animal and that means a , stick, branch, or blade, if not gun.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

How bout a skunk on PCP? or a super mutated ferret on absinth?

lol - I was *wondering* when I'd see the absinthe references on this forum!

It seems a lot of this argument is not about utility, but about whether people are stronger or weaker than other animals. I think the thing most people would have to worry about first (same as getting in a fight with another person) is keeping their wits about them when faced with that strung-out possum on crystal meth with a little switchblade.

And, as others have said, most situations with animals (unlike with people) will blow over if you remain calm, and do not provoke.

 

[bignick]

no...what you really have to worry about is the golden marmoset on peyote....it's the most frightening thing you've ever seen

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I think marmosets are adorable. And my dog loves digging for them. Awwwww, lookit the widdle marmoset!


Wait, wait... what's that he's got? Why is he staggering around...? AAAAAAAAUUUUUGHHHH!

 

[bignick]

i also thought i'd throw this on the debate on a human vs. an ape...still think we have such a good chance....www.judoinfo.com/images/video/media/karatechimp.mpeg

copy and paste the link to get it to work