REALITY BITES.
Kenpo... On the Ground
- Thread starter True2Kenpo
- Start date
M
M F
Guest
If I recall correctly, when Holyfield was bitten by Tyson, Holyfield tried to punch, threw an elbow, and then was separated from Tyson by people who entered the ring at this point. He was caught off guard, but not disabled. He was barely distracted by having a piece of his ear bitten off. Do not fool yourself into believing that biting someone is going to get you out of a hold or lock when your (and your opponents) adrenalin is flowing.
Do I believe that all the principles required to be an effective grappler are in Kenpo? Yes. Do I think that grappling needs have a greater emphasis in the overall scheme of ones training? Absolutely. The more you know about a style of fighting, the better equipped you are to defend against it.
Do I believe that all the principles required to be an effective grappler are in Kenpo? Yes. Do I think that grappling needs have a greater emphasis in the overall scheme of ones training? Absolutely. The more you know about a style of fighting, the better equipped you are to defend against it.
K
Kirk
Guest
INteresting .. I'll have to watch it again, cause to my recollection,
he was dancing everywhere in pain. I remember him trying to
punch when Tyson first chewed on it .. before he bit a piece off.
K
Kenpomachine
Guest
Well, I considered them the best equiped, but in a war there's always the guerrilla tactic, and then it's mind which comes over equipment or training.
So if you don't have a head you use in good shape, then you'll do a mistake someone more clever than you will use against you. And it doesn't matter whether he's BJJ, TKD, Kenpo...
Hey, intelligence is a weapon we can also use and is the one leading the others. Go train it!!
True, you do have to worry about a disease when biting. Of course, nothing says that you have to break skin. I would think that as soon as you made the attempt, the other person might pull away, giving you the chance to escape. Of course, even without biting, just throwing punches can cause blood to get on you. I guess its a chance that you'll have to take.
Mike
Mike
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twinkletoes
Guest
OK, time to clear some things up!
1) Biting on the ground is not done to draw blood or to create injury. It is done to create space! When a trained biter (that's right, someone who trains biting) does his thing, it has a few special characteristics:
-It is after gaining a position, standing up or on the ground, in which he can bite uninterrupted . That is to say, he attains a position in which for the next 15 seconds or so, you cannot hit or bite him back.
-The targets he bites are selected because they will cause you to push away from him explosively.
-This is done with the purpose of creating space, so that he can escape or strike (usually escape).
People who train Kino Mutai (philipino art of biting, gouging, pinching, twisting, spitting, etc.) use it as an addition to their grappling training. Some BJJ guys are lucky enough to train under instructor who know this stuff! What happens when you grapple someone who has experience using and defending gouges and bites? It will not be fun for you!
2) Are you a kenpo stylist? I am. I have been training it for 15 years. My understanding is that we have all these different techniques because we want to train for a variety of practical situations. Sometimes we even poke a little fun at some traditional styles because they train against things like sword attacks, or really unrealistic type attacks that someone would never really use on the street. Sometimes we also see the responses they give as unrealistic.
Experience is the best guide when it comes to judging whether or not something is realistic. That's why we spar, and we try to include a lot of allowable tactics in sparring. I mean, if we're going to harp on the limitations of "sport styles" we'd better to be ready to show them what "more realistic training" looks like.
So the question is, when it comes to all the situations Kenpo addresses, are you confident you can handle it because you know a technique that covers it? Are you confident because you sparred that scenario out? Are you confident because someone told you once that you dont have to worry about it?
Your answer will be different for every scenario. For years I did what I thought was realistic knife defenses. I have a black belt in Arnis, as well as my 3rd degree in kenpo. You know what happened when I gave a new white belt a 6-inch piece of pipe foam and told him to stab me with it? I disarmed him twice, and got killed 8 times. Do I think that I have realistic knife defenses? I think it's time to do that new drill some more.
Your experience will dictate your readiness. I'm not suggesting we all need to be able to out-box a heavyweight, out-stickfight an Escrimador, out-kick a TKD instructor, out-randori a Judoka, and out-grapple a BJJer, but the question is: "What kind of real experience do you have in all of your fields?"
cont.
1) Biting on the ground is not done to draw blood or to create injury. It is done to create space! When a trained biter (that's right, someone who trains biting) does his thing, it has a few special characteristics:
-It is after gaining a position, standing up or on the ground, in which he can bite uninterrupted . That is to say, he attains a position in which for the next 15 seconds or so, you cannot hit or bite him back.
-The targets he bites are selected because they will cause you to push away from him explosively.
-This is done with the purpose of creating space, so that he can escape or strike (usually escape).
People who train Kino Mutai (philipino art of biting, gouging, pinching, twisting, spitting, etc.) use it as an addition to their grappling training. Some BJJ guys are lucky enough to train under instructor who know this stuff! What happens when you grapple someone who has experience using and defending gouges and bites? It will not be fun for you!
2) Are you a kenpo stylist? I am. I have been training it for 15 years. My understanding is that we have all these different techniques because we want to train for a variety of practical situations. Sometimes we even poke a little fun at some traditional styles because they train against things like sword attacks, or really unrealistic type attacks that someone would never really use on the street. Sometimes we also see the responses they give as unrealistic.
Experience is the best guide when it comes to judging whether or not something is realistic. That's why we spar, and we try to include a lot of allowable tactics in sparring. I mean, if we're going to harp on the limitations of "sport styles" we'd better to be ready to show them what "more realistic training" looks like.
So the question is, when it comes to all the situations Kenpo addresses, are you confident you can handle it because you know a technique that covers it? Are you confident because you sparred that scenario out? Are you confident because someone told you once that you dont have to worry about it?
Your answer will be different for every scenario. For years I did what I thought was realistic knife defenses. I have a black belt in Arnis, as well as my 3rd degree in kenpo. You know what happened when I gave a new white belt a 6-inch piece of pipe foam and told him to stab me with it? I disarmed him twice, and got killed 8 times. Do I think that I have realistic knife defenses? I think it's time to do that new drill some more.
Your experience will dictate your readiness. I'm not suggesting we all need to be able to out-box a heavyweight, out-stickfight an Escrimador, out-kick a TKD instructor, out-randori a Judoka, and out-grapple a BJJer, but the question is: "What kind of real experience do you have in all of your fields?"
cont.
T
twinkletoes
Guest
Throughout all my years in Kenpo I was always told that Kenpo was eclectic, non-traditional and well-rounded. I am not going to challenge that statement, because my kenpo is these things. However, I had to restore some of these elements that were dying out. What do I mean?
I mean that some things were becoming de-emphasized in my training and I had to bring them back to retain the relevance and well-roundedness. For starters, I learned Arnis, and started learning new ways to train weapons. This helped my understanding of the kenpo approach to weapons. Then I started learning BJJ, and realized that a realistic ground approach was not present in my Kenpo.
Now, I am not necessarily advocating that Kenpoka everywhere need to go train everything else. But for me to keep my training well-rounded and addressing many situations, I needed to introduce new training methodologies to the ideas I'd been handed. I now train with games and alive drills which improve my skills exponentially. These training methods help my kenpo.
For example, last year I taught a seminar called "Groundfighting without Grappling." This focused on striking from the ground against a standing opponent, WITHOUT going into grappling and BJJ. I took the old-school "lying on your side, side-kicking at his knee" approach, which BTW doesn't work against most people, and I supercharged it with ideas I had picked up in BJJ and other places. The result? A fully Kenpo skillset involving numerous kicks and ways to get to your feet from your back, which was safer and more effective than the version I had learned. The ideas for how I trained in order to work on the techniques came from outside my art, but the product was still kenpo.
Lastly, I will not bother to argue that kenpoists should go learn BJJ. I have seen from my experience that it helps tremendously, but it is not my place to say what other kenpoka should do with their training. I will, however, add an observation.
Almost all BJJ practitioners include in their training times when they spar against practitioners of every other art known to man. They allow the other martial artists to use their favorite rules, ranges and tactics, so that the BJJers will learn what to expect from other stylists (strikers, wrestlers, etc.). They have no problem sparring kenpo guys, so that they can experience kenpo responses to their BJJ tactics, and devise appropriate counters, and train those counters. This way they are really prepared not for what someone *might* theoretically do, or what would work against them, but they know from experience what they did do, and they trained ways to prevent it. (Incidentally, this is why they did so well in the UFC's and other competitions).
I know VERY few kenpo practitioners who have the same research mindset. But I am one, and it sounds like there are a few more lurking here
Are you one?
Best,
~Chris
I mean that some things were becoming de-emphasized in my training and I had to bring them back to retain the relevance and well-roundedness. For starters, I learned Arnis, and started learning new ways to train weapons. This helped my understanding of the kenpo approach to weapons. Then I started learning BJJ, and realized that a realistic ground approach was not present in my Kenpo.
Now, I am not necessarily advocating that Kenpoka everywhere need to go train everything else. But for me to keep my training well-rounded and addressing many situations, I needed to introduce new training methodologies to the ideas I'd been handed. I now train with games and alive drills which improve my skills exponentially. These training methods help my kenpo.
For example, last year I taught a seminar called "Groundfighting without Grappling." This focused on striking from the ground against a standing opponent, WITHOUT going into grappling and BJJ. I took the old-school "lying on your side, side-kicking at his knee" approach, which BTW doesn't work against most people, and I supercharged it with ideas I had picked up in BJJ and other places. The result? A fully Kenpo skillset involving numerous kicks and ways to get to your feet from your back, which was safer and more effective than the version I had learned. The ideas for how I trained in order to work on the techniques came from outside my art, but the product was still kenpo.
Lastly, I will not bother to argue that kenpoists should go learn BJJ. I have seen from my experience that it helps tremendously, but it is not my place to say what other kenpoka should do with their training. I will, however, add an observation.
Almost all BJJ practitioners include in their training times when they spar against practitioners of every other art known to man. They allow the other martial artists to use their favorite rules, ranges and tactics, so that the BJJers will learn what to expect from other stylists (strikers, wrestlers, etc.). They have no problem sparring kenpo guys, so that they can experience kenpo responses to their BJJ tactics, and devise appropriate counters, and train those counters. This way they are really prepared not for what someone *might* theoretically do, or what would work against them, but they know from experience what they did do, and they trained ways to prevent it. (Incidentally, this is why they did so well in the UFC's and other competitions).
I know VERY few kenpo practitioners who have the same research mindset. But I am one, and it sounds like there are a few more lurking here
Are you one? Best,
~Chris
I could not agree more with the last 4 paragraphs of the first post. We are talking about the pros and cons of this art and that art, but I have seen no mention of any real experiences. Now, before anybody starts yelling, let me clarify what I'm saying.
What I am NOT saying is that we all have to run out and enter in NHB. What I'm talking about is any real life street encounter that you may have had to back up your skills, or what types of realistic training you do in your own school. Like TT mentioned about the knife drills. Here you have a relaxed setting, using a piece of foam, and a beginner student, and look what happened. You have someone with 15 yrs experience, who has excellent fighting knowledge, trains realistically, and got "stabbed" more times than not. And this in only a drill!!!
I think the point we are trying to make here is regardless of what you are able to do in your own school, during the training sessions, etc., that we need to train for some realism. By omitting that from our training is doing more harm than good!
MJS
What I am NOT saying is that we all have to run out and enter in NHB. What I'm talking about is any real life street encounter that you may have had to back up your skills, or what types of realistic training you do in your own school. Like TT mentioned about the knife drills. Here you have a relaxed setting, using a piece of foam, and a beginner student, and look what happened. You have someone with 15 yrs experience, who has excellent fighting knowledge, trains realistically, and got "stabbed" more times than not. And this in only a drill!!!
I think the point we are trying to make here is regardless of what you are able to do in your own school, during the training sessions, etc., that we need to train for some realism. By omitting that from our training is doing more harm than good!
MJS
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rmcrobertson
Guest
I'm still waiting to read about something I haven't been taught, and repeatedly practiced, right at home in kenpo.
And I'd really like to read a good definition of this, "real life," I keep reading so much about.
And I'd really like to read a good definition of this, "real life," I keep reading so much about.
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ProfessorKenpo
Guest
Not to rain on your pararde but anytime you're being choked your body begins to go into a self-preservation mode, including biting, scratching, pinching etc. It's not uncommon to watch any child in a headlock bite their way out, untrained no less.
Let's get to the scenario of a novice having a knife
1) he knew you were going to defend.
2)you waited for the attack, then lost more times than won, geez, wonder why?
3)did you strike him with full power and move at full speed? Kinda defeats the point doesn't it?
4)was a weapon available for your use at any time?
5)was running ever an option? This should actually be the first.
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
I'm starting to think Robert that you just like testing everybody elses knowledge. Well, thats fine...test away!!!
You are telling me that you have had someone on top of you on the ground, and you successfully defended with a Kenpo tech? The top man probably didn't have much grappling experience. You do biting in Kenpo? Gee, thats funny. I don't know of 1 tech, that has biting in it.
Real life---well Rob, let me try, and a big emphasis on TRY, to enlighten you. We all train in Kenpo, the wide assortment of tech. Most of the time, the attacker punches, stopping 2 in away from the target, and then stands still while the Kenpoist delivers mult. strikes...all to someone who is not moving. Do you practice against mult punches? And I am NOT talking about the extensions, or other tech that are done against more than 1 punch! I train with one of my partners. We went for 5 min, each, non stop throwing random attacks at each other. No sooner did we finish one tech. another was being fired off. You dont have a chance to think..."Ok, a straight punch is coming..which of the 50 punch techs am i gonna do...OOPPSS..here comes a kick, which one of the 4 defenses am I gonna do?" No, instead you just react to the attack, with out any thinking. What about training with live weapons. On the street, you wont be against a rubber knife. How about some full contact sparring? None of this point crap, and no kicking to the legs or back, because its not in the rules.
Now, I'm sure you will say next.."Well, not everybody wants to train like that....FINE...but that is your real life.
MS
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Well, I have nothing useful to write in response.
If you'd like to take that as an admission that training with the likes of Clyde is worthless, "in real life," fine by me.
Thanks.
If you'd like to take that as an admission that training with the likes of Clyde is worthless, "in real life," fine by me.
Thanks.
Robert--why cant you just answer the question. I'm starting to think that you are agreeing with some of the things I've said, but are afraid to admit them!
I have no idea about the knowledge of your Inst. Reading a post or bio on here, does not give a very good idea. Not saying that he isnt who he says he is, but its just hard to know your skill or your Inst skill when I have not seen either one of you.
MS
I have no idea about the knowledge of your Inst. Reading a post or bio on here, does not give a very good idea. Not saying that he isnt who he says he is, but its just hard to know your skill or your Inst skill when I have not seen either one of you.
MS
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rmcrobertson
Guest
"Afraid."
Sigh.
I don't choose to answer any of the questions you insist upon, because I don't see how the answers would be helpful. In fact, you've already pretty much said that my instructors don't know what they're doing, so I think I'll just let this one go.
Thanks for the discussion.
Sigh.
I don't choose to answer any of the questions you insist upon, because I don't see how the answers would be helpful. In fact, you've already pretty much said that my instructors don't know what they're doing, so I think I'll just let this one go.
Thanks for the discussion.
And there we go again folks...Rob putting words into my mouth. Rob, listen close for just a min, ok. Show me where I said your Inst dont know what they are doing? If I said it, show me the post in those exact words! I said that it seems that alot of the Kenpo inst out there are not willing to open up to other options!
MS
Clyde, let me say first, that I know this poster personally, and I am very aware of his skills and his training methods. Are you telling me that an attacker on the street is not going to know that you will be defending? Waited for the attack? Well, if you reach for the weapon, dont you think that you're gonna get cut? Striking him? Well, considering it was hard enough to grab the weapon hand, dont you think weapon retention is more important than the initial strkie?
Let me ask you this. Have you ever defended yourself against a real blade attack?? Or have you trained mostly with rubber knives? And, if you have, you are telling me that you have not gotten cut? Was your "attacker" really trying to cut you, or only going half way so as to make you look good while doing the disarm? And believe me, I have seen that many times. The Inst. does a tech with a student that he knows will make him look good so the other students will be under a flase misconception that this tech will work
MS
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Uh...Mike? Here you go...your words...
"Well, maybe you can answer this question for me. I was watching Larry Tatums Mass Attack tape. In the beginning, you see him fighting mult attackers....yup, one at a time. During the actual inst. he goes on to gradually position the attackers according to his set movements, saying that when he does this move, then this will happen, and prevent that attacker from doing this, etc. How can you predict a mult person fight? You talk about Hollywood. Well, in a real mult attacker fight, they will not be attacking 1 at a time..."
Maybe I'm misreading?
I think I'll let Clyde answer for himself, concerning his own lack of realism. This should be good.
"Well, maybe you can answer this question for me. I was watching Larry Tatums Mass Attack tape. In the beginning, you see him fighting mult attackers....yup, one at a time. During the actual inst. he goes on to gradually position the attackers according to his set movements, saying that when he does this move, then this will happen, and prevent that attacker from doing this, etc. How can you predict a mult person fight? You talk about Hollywood. Well, in a real mult attacker fight, they will not be attacking 1 at a time..."
Maybe I'm misreading?
I think I'll let Clyde answer for himself, concerning his own lack of realism. This should be good.
LOL!! WOW Rob! This is just another example of the misconception of a mult attacker fight. Having the students standing the way "YOU" want them to stand and attack how "YOU" want them to, and having them attack 1 at a time. This to me is not a mult person attack.
I have worked in a prison, and have seen a few fights among the inmates. It was rarely a 1 on 1...more like 10 on 1 all at the same time, kicking and punching, and throwing things at the guy on the ground. If someone is going to attack you in a group, you will have all or at least the majority of them attacking at the same time.
MS
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ProfessorKenpo
Guest
Let me say I've never had to beat my way out of a situation with a person holding a knife. I managed to talk them out of using it all three times a weapon came into play. Oddly enough, the voice of reason took over in them and they put it away. I was really pushing them when I told them where the knife would end up should they not, and the fact they didn't know I was armed as well. They decided to play their trump first by showing the blade, I didn't. Fortunately, it worked out in both our favor. I don't train with a live blade, that's just stupid, and I'm certainly not beyond running like a schoolboy let out for recess. Oh well.
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
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rmcrobertson
Guest
Uh...Mike? I was quoting you in response to your statement:
"...there we go again folks...Rob putting words into my mouth. Rob, listen close for just a min, ok. Show me where I said your Inst dont know what they are doing? If I said it, show me the post in those exact words!"
Therefore, I quoted your statement:
"Well, maybe you can answer this question for me. I was watching Larry Tatums Mass Attack tape. In the beginning, you see him fighting mult attackers....yup, one at a time. During the actual inst. he goes on to gradually position the attackers according to his set movements, saying that when he does this move, then this will happen, and prevent that attacker from doing this, etc. How can you predict a mult person fight? You talk about Hollywood. Well, in a real mult attacker fight, they will not be attacking 1 at a time..."
And you responded as follows:
"WOW Rob! This is just another example of the misconception of a mult attacker fight. Having the students standing the way "YOU" want them to stand and attack how "YOU" want them to, and having them attack 1 at a time. This to me is not a mult person attack..."
I'm not sure I see how this amounts to, "putting words in your mouth." I'm also not sure how to interpret this as anything other than a statement that, "Your Inst dont know what they are doing." Could you explain?
Thanks.
"...there we go again folks...Rob putting words into my mouth. Rob, listen close for just a min, ok. Show me where I said your Inst dont know what they are doing? If I said it, show me the post in those exact words!"
Therefore, I quoted your statement:
"Well, maybe you can answer this question for me. I was watching Larry Tatums Mass Attack tape. In the beginning, you see him fighting mult attackers....yup, one at a time. During the actual inst. he goes on to gradually position the attackers according to his set movements, saying that when he does this move, then this will happen, and prevent that attacker from doing this, etc. How can you predict a mult person fight? You talk about Hollywood. Well, in a real mult attacker fight, they will not be attacking 1 at a time..."
And you responded as follows:
"WOW Rob! This is just another example of the misconception of a mult attacker fight. Having the students standing the way "YOU" want them to stand and attack how "YOU" want them to, and having them attack 1 at a time. This to me is not a mult person attack..."
I'm not sure I see how this amounts to, "putting words in your mouth." I'm also not sure how to interpret this as anything other than a statement that, "Your Inst dont know what they are doing." Could you explain?
Thanks.
